Mutants: Why does this idea work?

[Lord Liaden]

No surprise his government doesn't trust him. He sounds like a bloody psychopath. Of course the world he comes from is a global dictatorship built on race hatred and fear, so the dictator may still find Piecemeal useful.

 

It's an interesting motif, though. Rather than trying to kill mutants, or enslave them, Piecemeal appears to be trying to co-opt their superior powers by stealing their very flesh.

[steriaca]

10 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

No surprise his government doesn't trust him. He sounds like a bloody psychopath. Of course the world he comes from is a global dictatorship built on race hatred and fear, so the dictator may still find Piecemeal useful.

 

It's an interesting motif, though. Rather than trying to kill mutants, or enslave them, Piecemeal appears to be trying to co-opt their superior powers by stealing their very flesh.

Yes, I wanted him to be a bit different from the "I hate you I kill you" type. It is more like "i love you i love your powers i kill you for the powers" type.

 

It is also an excuse for a changeable between the scenes VVP. He somehow can keep organic matter alive within his power suit. Kinda makes him a creepy Iron Man.

 

What I have in my mind so far...

Resistant Protection (not only the physical protection of the suit, but strong layers of mutant skin between layers of metal and plastic).

Energy Blast (a few cloned eyes and optic nerves of a mutant which shoots energy out of his eyes, surrounded by green glass tubes suspended in strange liquid).

Mental Defense (a psionic mutant [s]mind[/s] brain Incorporated into a helmet of the suit).

The VVP.

HKA and Stretching (razor sharp tounge attached to his right arm of his suit).

 

He should have other powers based on various body parts. I don't see him attaching wings to fly or anything, but he lacks transport powers. Everything comes from his mutant body parts he weaponized. But I'm coming up blank.

[Sketchpad]

On 6/15/2021 at 2:24 AM, DShomshak said:

You're welcome. Oh, and reviewing Wikipedia, I found that in the current Marvel Universe there are now "Mutants Only" clubs.

 

Times have changed even more since then. In the current Marvel Universe, most mutants live on the sentient island of Krakoa (yes, the same one from Giant Sized X-Men) where they have formed their own nation. This includes a council consisting of heroes and villains that make decisions for their new nation, as well as "The Five" who can bring people back from the dead. It's been an interesting read so far, particularly their event stories. In fact...

 

Spoiler

In Planet Size X-Men #1 (out this week), a group of Omega-Level mutants terraform Mars to handle an overflow of mutants from Arakko, Krakoa's mated island. Using mutants such as Magneto, Proteus, Storm, Iceman, Jaime Braddock, Hope Summers, Quentin Quire, and Exodus (along with some Arakko mutants), they move Arakko to the now habitable Mars with a gate allowing instantaneous travel between the islands. 

 

It's been particularly interesting to see how the rest of the world has been handling these events. 

 

[Asperion]

I have often wondered why people in Marvel are so selective about their mutant hatred.  Go to Cyk, Beast, Storm,  or any other mutant and people will be shouting hate towards them. However,  go to someone else with innate powers (Thor, FF, Namor, etc) and people will basically be giving them hero worship,  not hatred. Everything is the same about both groups except that one has a random mutation that causes their abilities while the other got the abilities by experiment,  being good, wrong place and time, or something else.  Why are people being so selective about their hatred and why are they so certain that this person is a mutant but not that person?

[Lord Liaden]

10 hours ago, steriaca said:

He should have other powers based on various body parts. I don't see him attaching wings to fly or anything, but he lacks transport powers. Everything comes from his mutant body parts he weaponized. But I'm coming up blank.

 

Teleportation and levitation are established mutant powers. Just declare that they're derived from a mutated section of the brain, or an additional organ or gland.

 

1 hour ago, Asperion said:

I have often wondered why people in Marvel are so selective about their mutant hatred.  Go to Cyk, Beast, Storm,  or any other mutant and people will be shouting hate towards them. However,  go to someone else with innate powers (Thor, FF, Namor, etc) and people will basically be giving them hero worship,  not hatred. Everything is the same about both groups except that one has a random mutation that causes their abilities while the other got the abilities by experiment,  being good, wrong place and time, or something else.  Why are people being so selective about their hatred and why are they so certain that this person is a mutant but not that person?

 

Please see, well, pretty much the entirety of this thread.

[steriaca]

39 minutes ago, Asperion said:

I have often wondered why people in Marvel are so selective about their mutant hatred.  Go to Cyk, Beast, Storm,  or any other mutant and people will be shouting hate towards them. However,  go to someone else with innate powers (Thor, FF, Namor, etc) and people will basically be giving them hero worship,  not hatred. Everything is the same about both groups except that one has a random mutation that causes their abilities while the other got the abilities by experiment,  being good, wrong place and time, or something else.  Why are people being so selective about their hatred and why are they so certain that this person is a mutant but not that person?

Because people are emotional beings, not logical beings. They tend to fear what they don't understand. Give people they don't know bad modavations. 

[DShomshak]

To be fair, it should be noted that, back when I read Marvel, "anti-mutant hysteria" was a feature of the X-sub-universe and didn't appear much (if ever!) in other titles. As someone else mentioned: Beast is in the X-Men? "He's a mutant, kill him!" Beast is in the Avengers? He's an Avenger, no problems, and neither do Quicksilver or the Scarlet Witch. Conversely, how often did non-mutant supers appear in the X-titles? Not a lot.

 

All this may have changed in, ye gods, almost 30 years. It may be best just to roll one's eyes and put it down to different emphases in the titles. Or stop obsessing about clumsy writing from 30 years ago!

 

Dean Shomshak

[steriaca]

Hey three non-mutants out of a sea of mutants are small drops in an ocean. Scary to think Juggernaut actually joined the group for a small time (Don't you know who I am? I'm an X-Man bouch!) And Deadpool is...questionable. (But again he always been questionable. Just don't expect the truth from him.)

[Sketchpad]

5 hours ago, Asperion said:

I have often wondered why people in Marvel are so selective about their mutant hatred.  Go to Cyk, Beast, Storm,  or any other mutant and people will be shouting hate towards them. However,  go to someone else with innate powers (Thor, FF, Namor, etc) and people will basically be giving them hero worship,  not hatred. Everything is the same about both groups except that one has a random mutation that causes their abilities while the other got the abilities by experiment,  being good, wrong place and time, or something else.  Why are people being so selective about their hatred and why are they so certain that this person is a mutant but not that person?

 

Please see the current Democrat vs. Republican tirades throughout the news and social media. Or any of the racist threads... or... well, you might see my point.  

[steriaca]

1 hour ago, Sketchpad said:

 

Please see the current Democrat vs. Republican tirades throughout the news and social media. Or any of the racist threads... or... well, you might see my point.  

Basically people forget that your opponent is not your enemy. People are so convinced that their side is correct that they forget to listen to the other side and be civil. 

[Greywind]

3 hours ago, DShomshak said:

To be fair, it should be noted that, back when I read Marvel, "anti-mutant hysteria" was a feature of the X-sub-universe and didn't appear much (if ever!) in other titles. As someone else mentioned: Beast is in the X-Men? "He's a mutant, kill him!" Beast is in the Avengers? He's an Avenger, no problems, and neither do Quicksilver or the Scarlet Witch. Conversely, how often did non-mutant supers appear in the X-titles? Not a lot.

 

All this may have changed in, ye gods, almost 30 years. It may be best just to roll one's eyes and put it down to different emphases in the titles. Or stop obsessing about clumsy writing from 30 years ago!

 

Dean Shomshak

 

During her time in the Avengers there were several instances where Wanda expressed her disgust with the anti-mutant protests and crowds. Eventually leading to Avengers: Disassembled and House of M.

[Lord Liaden]

True, but I do remember what Dean is referring to. For years the X-titles were treated almost like a separate continuity.

[zslane]

Whenever a debate about superhero comics strays down the path of, "well in the real world...", you know something is wrong.

 

In my experience, comic book writers--even the highly regarded ones--generally don't write with enough deftness (and depth) to make any "real world" allegory actually work because there are too many essential things they handwave away just to get on with their story. You can't say, "Well we have racism and bigotry in the real world, and so it makes sense that mutants would be victims of such," and also ignore the fact that in the real world, non-mutant superheroes would also be hunted down and destroyed if they behaved as they do in the comics. The massive amounts of collateral damage they regularly incur would see to that. I mean, something like the Sokovia Accords would never have any legal authority in the real world, but the sentiment behind it is nevertheless 100% dead on realistic and sensible.

 

I largely agree with Christopher that attempts to say something deep about racism and bigotry is completely undermined by these stories being implanted in a universe that is inconsistent and conceptually dishonest/oversimplified about the interaction between normal humans and superpowered beings--mutant or otherwise--in general.

[Echo3Niner]

Um, it's Allegory; a literary device, an allegory is a narrative in which a character, place, or event is used to deliver a broader message about real-world issues and occurrences.

 

It is not intended to be a documentary or logical, realistic representation of real-world issues or occurrences.

 

It is simply designed to use the allegory to draw a parallel, in order to make a point.

 

Different writers over the 40+ years of the "anti-mutant movement" in Marvel, are by default going to be inconsistent, and change or adapt as society evolves over those 40+ years...  And will continue.

 

Edited June 18, 2021 by Echo3Niner
Typo

[Grailknight]

It also works in Marvel because of one crucial difference in X-men stories vs all other stories thru 2010 or so.

 

The X-Men never send their villains to jail.

 

They show up and prevent crimes just like every other hero group but their villains always escape. They can say they fight Magneto, but they've never handed him to the authorities. They've used a private secret prison or given him parole on honor. They've even made him part of the team and team leader. They'll fight to keep an innocent mutant out of jail but they never aid in the arrest of a guilty one. They'll stop a rampage but at the end they run away before the authorities show, just like the villains they fight. And the majority of their adventures take place outside the public eye so the only thing most people know is that a band of mutants fought another and caused a lot of property damage.

 

I can only recall one time they fought the good fight in public(Trickster/Siege Perilous) and they were proclaimed as heroes. So the next year of stories was therefore them being underground/undercover, hiding from the public eye  and ending with one of those stories where their heroic actions were cast in a villainous light and they naturally fled the scene rather than give their side of the story.

 

It's a conscious choice by the writers and editorial staff and it continued because it sold. X-titles were definitely the leading cash cow of Marvel before the MCU. It just got dated because the X-stories were definitely in their own private universe.

 

Present day they operate pretty much as a sanctuary nation for heroes and villains alike. They're North Korea with a smaller population a bigger arsenal and leadership of comparable stability and sanity. They aren't trying to exist alongside humanity and and are flaunting their superior abilities and saying "What ya gonna do?" to the whole world and the world is poised for that one bad act from a militant mutant to show them.

 

They'd better move to Mars, life on Earth is not gonna go well. 

[Hermit]

-CHAT Logs, 6/15/21-

 

Mom made this cape: So, 'Bigpikture' you're a former member of GENOCIDE? Srsly? How messed up with hate are you?

BigPikture: You're the one who chose me out a bunch of bad guys to interview, sidekick.

Mom made this cape: More because my mentor made trying to understand certain criminal mindsets a part of my training. I thought you were reformed,  But now I learn the only reason you're not still a member is because the organization is dead. You still hate mutants? Srysly? in 2021?

BigPikture: The problem is still the same, and with Genocide gone, accelerating. 

Mom made this cape: Oh no, more flying people. How will mankind survive? Jelly much?

BigPikture:  Geez kid, how old are you?

Mom made this cape: Old enough to know a Nazi.

BigPikture: Says the vigilante in training who will one day bypass laws 'for the greater good'. 

Mom made this cape: Man, if I didn't have to put up with you in order to get an extension on my patrol time, I'd exit this chat now. Fine, if it's not jealousy that fuels the hate, then what is it?

BigPikture: I'm trying to save mankind, and believe it or not, future generations of mutants too.

Mom made this cape: .... wth? How is killing mutants SAVING them?

BigPikture: How much do you know about Evolution, Genetics?

Mom made this cape: Enough to know it's natural, and inevitable.

BigPikture: Is it natural to have a species fracture at an accelerated rate? The answer is 'no', should it be so random an inconsistent ? Again, no.

Mom made this cape: It's adaptive is all...

BigPikture:  Adapting to WHAT? Tell me, what strange evolutionary need has two brothers, both mutants: one gets gills, the other sets things on fire with his mind? Where is the consistency? 

Mom made this cape:  Scientists are looking into that.

BigPikture: Yes, we are. You think we didn't have scientists in Genocide? We did look into it. What we saw was not normal mutation! It was not typical evolution. It was a genetic apocalypse brewing ready to kill billions.

Mom made this cape: You're full of #$$#. Maybe not all mutants pass on the same powers, but a lot of times its similar when it passes down at all.

BigPikture: Not as often as you would think, and believe me, we had more time to study such than 90% of folks out there. Sure, sometimes the genetics hold, and eventually some will lock down. How much do you know about human nature? Sociology, Power Dynamics?

Mom made this cape: Obviously still a student, but if this is a 'mutants are inherently driven to crime' argument, you can go #$## yourself.

BigPikture: Actually, there does seemed to be heightened aggression among mutants according to certain studies into their brain chemistry. Yes, not everyone agrees. I'd show you the study but it would be over your head. But no, let's focus on the fracturing lines, then human nature. Let's say some powers breed true. Homo homo Sapiens become a minority. Some will say it's time for Homo Divergent will rise, no big deal. But Homo Divergent is a catch all, what you'll really end up with is Home Divergent Fortis, Homo Divergent Solaris, and everyone's favorite, Homo Divergent Psychicae! You won't have 'the next step in evolution', you'll have dozens of steps, many of them mis-steps, but essentially different species! And as soon as they start competing and fearing others not in their particular evolutionary track, they'll turn on each other.

Mom made this cape:  That's crazy. They're in the same boat. They need each other.

BigPikture: Do they? Maybe the idea of a hundred people with the ability to take down a bridge with a single punch doesn't frighten you. How about mind control? Telepaths. Don't think they wouldn't click together, band together and think they were better than the OTHER Mutants divergent lines.

Mom made this cape: This is conjecture.

BigPikture: PSI.

(A pause)

BigPikture: Ah, you have heard of them, either that or you're googling fast as you can. They're supremacists as well as a criminal organization, and they don't think for one moment they'd see a standard 'brick' as an equal. They'd eventually rationalize, enslave the others. And not just them, how about Home Divergent Velox? You know, Speedsters. Everyone else would be so annoyingly slow. The only ones they could relate too would be is each other. They wouldn't see other genetic adaptations, they'd see them just like they often see you or me: tortoises acting as speedbumps on their highway.

Mom made this cape:  You don't know that's how it will go down.

BigPikture: Right, and people would never war or enslave over SKIN Color either, or Cultures, or whatever. Wake up, MMTC , Powers are ten times more reason to form rival  tribes, and tribes do not play well with each other for the same resources. GENOCIDE Kept those numbers thin, like culling rabbits that would other wise pick things clean, only on a scale beyond just devouring nature. 

Mom made this cape:  We can BE better. And fear of what might be doesn't excuse the hate. And you still don't make sense. Why just mutants? Why not the guys who had lab accidents, or aliens who visit Earth? or mystical sorts?

BigPikture: Ah, the real question. Some guy gets flight and super strength from putting Kelvarite in a blender, why isn't he a target but the mutant with super strength and flight is? Come on, Cape. You know this. Lab accidents are not as likely to carry on mutation in their genomes. Some might, but it's not nearly as great a threat. Aliens? We already have folks watching them, and the Earth Authorities and heros DO fight them, otherwise we'd be invaded a dozen times over. It's not Genocide that's hypocritical, it's supers like you who pat yourselves on the back for stopping the latest threat from outside our solar system, while shutting your eyes to the threat from our biological systems run wrong. Mystics? They appear to have their own rules that have nothing to do with genotype. Honestly, we didn't have time for the 'whataboutism' of pissants who tried to equate the few dozen lab accidents, aliens, or mythic things that might breed true compared to the hundreds of mutants that eventually would. 

Mom made this cape:  You've got an excuse for everything. If Genocide rises again, I, and others, will stop you. We'll fight for our mutant friends. Hell, we'll fight for the mutant strangers!

BigPikture: Oh god, you actually think we haven't adapted with the times already? Oh kid you have no idea how the mission carries on. Genocide is gone, but we've learned how it works now. And you can't stop what the movement to save humanity has become with a punch.

Mom made this cape:  Genocide is dead.

BigPikture: Not dead. Just evolved. You'll thank us one day, when you see for yourself we were right, if you live long enough. Later, Cape.

 

-END OF CHAT-

 

[Opal]

"Mom made this cape" has no idea how to conduct an interview.

[Hermit]

3 minutes ago, Opal said:

"Mom made this cape" has no idea how to conduct an interview.

He really doesn't. But I imagine a lot of teenagers don't

[pawsplay]

On 6/14/2021 at 9:52 AM, Mr. R said:

My problem with Mutants hating is encapsulated in a story I read once.  I will attempt to repeat it here:

 

Jim Bob is walking down the driveway to his friend Billy Ray, when he sees Billy loading all his hunting gear into his pick up.  Since hunting season is not for a number of weeks, Jim is curious.

 

Jim Bob "Billy."  

Billy Ray "Hey Jim."

Jim Bob "Whatchu doin?"

Billy Ray "I heard a mutant moved into the old Johnson place.  I'm gonna run him out!  No place for that type of scum in our town!"

Jim Bob "Hey Billy, he ain't no mutant.  He was the victim of some experement!  He just wants to find a quiet place to live and get out of the press!"

Billy "Yeah!  Right!"

Jim "No really he has a certificate from Captain America stating he's the victim of cercumstance!"

Billy "Your not joshing me?"

Jim "The Lord strike me down if I'm lying!" "Anyway I'm hear to see if Bobby Sue has any of her pecan pies left?  We plan to do a house warmin for him of Friday!'

Billy "Wellll......"

Jim "And he like Hooters!"

Billy "Well lets take em there Saturday!  What does he drink?"

Jim "Bud."

Billy "Well, no accounting for taste!"

 

Billy turns to his house "YO! Bobby Sue!  You have any pecans pies left?"

 

As humorous as this is... when I was a kid I read a book about the Japanese internment in the USA during WWII. At one point, the main character notices an older Asian man doing gardening. He is perplexed, but he finds out from another boy that the man in Chinese. They then have a discussion about how to tell Japanese people from Chinese people.

 

And you have the same people who will salute a vet when he's wearing his uniform on Veteran's Day and then turn around and then not support Social Security, the VA, and the other things this person needs to survive. Because they don't think of the veteran and the person with a disability as being the same person.

 

So it's not hard for me to believe some people in the MCU hate mutants and not mutates, or they hate mutants and mutates but not science experiments, or they don't have a clear understanding of the difference between them, or any number of other configurations of attitude.

[Mr. R]

2 hours ago, pawsplay said:

 

As humorous as this is... when I was a kid I read a book about the Japanese internment in the USA during WWII. At one point, the main character notices an older Asian man doing gardening. He is perplexed, but he finds out from another boy that the man in Chinese. They then have a discussion about how to tell Japanese people from Chinese people.

 

And you have the same people who will salute a vet when he's wearing his uniform on Veteran's Day and then turn around and then not support Social Security, the VA, and the other things this person needs to survive. Because they don't think of the veteran and the person with a disability as being the same person.

 

So it's not hard for me to believe some people in the MCU hate mutants and not mutates, or they hate mutants and mutates but not science experiments, or they don't have a clear understanding of the difference between them, or any number of other configurations of attitude.

 

That makes sense.  As Obi Wan said, it all depends on your point of view!

[Mick Price]

Mutants tend to manifest without warning during puberty often hurting people. Most superheroes don't emerge like that.  What is confusing is why more mutants don't pretend to be results of radiation accidents etc.  After all they keep their secret identities.  This makes them a better metaphor for homosexuals than racial minorities.   Not that homosexuals coming to is dangerous to their classmates, but they were treated like that.  So not a perfect metaphor, but it's not a surprise when someone is black. 

[Mick Price]

On 6/18/2021 at 1:29 AM, steriaca said:

Because people are emotional beings, not logical beings. They tend to fear what they don't understand. Give people they don't know bad modavations. 

Yes but they don't understand real magicians and gods any more than they do mutants. I think the "sudden emergence at the worst possible time" explanation is better than just "people aren't logical.".

[Mick Price]

On 6/8/2021 at 9:29 AM, Tjack said:

  Prejudice does not and never has needed a logical reason to exist.  All the psychology and sociology in the world can’t explain it.   Look at the guard/prisoner experiments.  Or the one that became known as “The Wave”.

All arbitrary, all completely artificial and random separations of a group and over the course of a three day weekend you get violence.  It’s the ugly part of human nature.  Look out for it, root it out, never tolerate it in yourself or others and stomp it to death whenever you get the chance.   But don’t waste your time trying to understand it.

 

But that doesn't explain why non-mutant supers aren't hated.  They aren't artificially separated by anyone. The reasons to fear mutants apply to them as well. Saying "don't waste your time trying to explain it" is a cop-out.  

[Tjack]

1 hour ago, Mick Price said:

 

But that doesn't explain why non-mutant supers aren't hated.  They aren't artificially separated by anyone. The reasons to fear mutants apply to them as well. Saying "don't waste your time trying to explain it" is a cop-out.  

   First and foremost....because it’s not real.   Secondly the idea that all Supers are mistrusted and hated has been done  several times in the past by different comic companies.  It’s just not as useful in most games as having one hated group instead of all heroes.

[Lord Liaden]

The X-Men movies had the right idea -- all superhumans in that world are mutants. Makes all the issues clean and simple to understand.

 

It's why I hope Marvel Studios doesn't try to integrate mutants onto Avengers Earth. Particularly at this point in MCU history, I don't believe it would be worth the effort needed to justify it. Marvel has its Multiverse now, so crossovers should be possible.