Multiple Attacks and CSLs

[Sketchpad]

Howdy Gang! I'm sure this has been asked before, but I can't seem to find it on the boards. Can CSLs at 2pts offset the OCV penalties of Multiple Attack maneuver? 

 

For example: If Seeker were fighting 6 thugs and wanted to attack all 6 (a -10 penalty to attack), could he buy CSL: +6 OCV for Multiple Attack (12pts) to bring that down to a -4 OCV?

[Asperion]

I would say that instead of using CSLs, use the PSL. While I believe that there is nothing against the CSL, the mechanics of PSL works better for the way that it sounds like you desire this skill to operate. 

[Hugh Neilson]

Or we could try reading 6e v2 p 77

 

[quote]Unless the GM rules otherwise, characters cannot buy Combat Skill Levels specifically with Multiple Attack. They have to buy CSLs with the attacks they use to make a Multiple Attack, which they may apply when making the Multiple Attack with those attacks. However, if a Multiple Attack involves two or more different attacks (whether against a single target or multiple targets), a character may only use CSLs that could apply to any of the individual attacks involved.[/quote]

 

and 6e v1 p84

 

[quote]Nor can he buy OPSLs to counteract the standard OCV penalty imposed by a Combat Maneuver (such as the -3 OCV for a Grab By), or to counteract the Unfamiliar Weapon penalty (6E2 51).[/quote]

[Sketchpad]

Thanks for the reference, Hugh. So that then asks the question, how does one offset the penalties of Multiple Attack? Can it be done? 

[Derek Hiemforth]

5 hours ago, Sketchpad said:

how does one offset the penalties of Multiple Attack? Can it be done? 

 

Buy a higher base OCV and apply a Limited Power Limitation Only to Offset Multiple Attack Penalties.  I know this sounds like it's bypassing the spirit of the rules (and maybe it is), but note that to get +6, as in the example above, it would be a base cost of 30, not 12. As a GM, I would probably only give the Limitation a value of -½. Being able to frequently use Multiple Attack without sacrificing accuracy is very useful (especially when combined with Rapid Attack). That makes the Real Cost of +6 to offset Multiple Attack penalties come out to 20 points instead of 12, and I think that seems about right.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Multiple and Combined Attacks have the potential to be super powerful, so the rules are built to try to prevent cheap ways to offset their penalties.

[LoneWolf]

While you cannot buy CSL to directly reduce the penalty for multiple attack you can buy them for the attack you are using it with.  If the attack you are using is single maneuver or a single weapon simply by +6 skill levels with that.  When you make the multiple attack your OCV will be 6 higher so will offset the penalty for attacking multiple targets.  The only issue you may run into is if the campaign has limits on OCV.

[Sketchpad]

I think I'll allow specific CSLs to offset since it's the call of the GM. I'm converting some characters over and it would be the easiest way to emulate one of the abilities. Thanks everyone.

[Ninja-Bear]

2 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

While you cannot buy CSL to directly reduce the penalty for multiple attack you can buy them for the attack you are using it with.  If the attack you are using is single maneuver or a single weapon simply by +6 skill levels with that.  When you make the multiple attack your OCV will be 6 higher so will offset the penalty for attacking multiple targets.  The only issue you may run into is if the campaign has limits on OCV.

So my question would be, can you by say +6 CSLs with say Punch but then put a limit in that Only for Mutli Attack.  I think that should be legal.

[Sketchpad]

9 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

So my question would be, can you by say +6 CSLs with say Punch but then put a limit in that Only for Mutli Attack.  I think that should be legal.

 

In the rules as written, I'm thinking no without explicit GM permission. As Hugh quoted above: 

 

Quote

Unless the GM rules otherwise, characters cannot buy Combat Skill Levels specifically with Multiple Attack. They have to buy CSLs with the attacks they use to make a Multiple Attack, which they may apply when making the Multiple Attack with those attacks. However, if a Multiple Attack involves two or more different attacks (whether against a single target or multiple targets), a character may only use CSLs that could apply to any of the individual attacks involved.

 

That said, I agree Ninja-Bear, that something should be allowed to reduce the penalty, as it's very action oriented to take on a pile of mooks. I'm going to allow it in my game, but I may put the following limit on it:

 

Mooks Only (-½): You may only use this ability with Mooks (no-named agents or criminals often used to support a main villain), and not a major NPC. For example: Nighthawk is taking on a local Viper Cell ran by MIsssstresss Sssnake. To get to her, he has to go through 8 Viper Agents. He has +6 CSL vs. Multiple Attacks Penalty (Mooks Only) that he activates to take on the agents. He starts with a -14 to hit, but reduces that to a -8 with his 6 CSLs. Now, hopefully, he can wade through them successfully, to which he'll have to fight the cell leader before she can escape. 

 

 

[LoneWolf]

My question is why do you need to only counter the penalty to multiple attack?  Most characters in fiction that can easily attack more than one target can do a lot more.   I have yet to see a character that is only good at attacking multiple easy target, but cannot hit a difficult target.  To me the idea that a character can hit multiple mooks but is incapable of hitting the real targets seems counterproductive.  Unless the GM is imposing some sort of hard limit on OCV it would probably be better to simply by CSL without the limitation.  Technically even if you put limits on the CSL you are still raising your OCV and many GM’s that set hard limits on CV will still not allow them. 

[bluesguy]

My house rule is you can buy up to +3 PSL to counter a negative OCV combat maneuver.  Almost everyone in my heroic level games buys +3 vs. hit location (usually a single weapon or small group) and then almost everyone aims for the chest.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah, its probably valid in a 4 color Champions game to have skill levels to hit multiple agents

[Sketchpad]

6 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

My question is why do you need to only counter the penalty to multiple attack?  Most characters in fiction that can easily attack more than one target can do a lot more.   I have yet to see a character that is only good at attacking multiple easy target, but cannot hit a difficult target.  To me the idea that a character can hit multiple mooks but is incapable of hitting the real targets seems counterproductive.  Unless the GM is imposing some sort of hard limit on OCV it would probably be better to simply by CSL without the limitation.  Technically even if you put limits on the CSL you are still raising your OCV and many GM’s that set hard limits on CV will still not allow them. 

 

It's an emulation thing. The idea that, in comics/cartoons, someone can mow through a mass of mooks is a staple in the genre. Look at characters like Batman, Daredevil, or Captain America when they're taking on thugs, ninjas, or agents of evil. They struggle to get to the BBEG, but it doesn't deter them for long, as nameless minions go flying around the room. However, once they get to their main foe, that fist-flying action slows as their foe is more pertinent to the story/adventure, and, thus, more of a challenge.

1 hour ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Yeah, its probably valid in a 4 color Champions game to have skill levels to hit multiple agents

 

Christopher, does the limit look appropriate in your opinion?

[Ninja-Bear]

On 6/16/2021 at 5:08 PM, Christopher R Taylor said:

Multiple and Combined Attacks have the potential to be super powerful, so the rules are built to try to prevent cheap ways to offset their penalties.

Yeah but with the caveat that a GM can overrule it, that makes the point kinda moot doesn’t it?

[Christopher R Taylor]

Spoiler

Christopher, does the limit look appropriate in your opinion?

 

I don't know if its worth -½ because in most campaigns mooks are gong to be the majority of your opponents.

[LoneWolf]

If you want to build a character like Batman or Daredevil don’t purchase each ability individually.  Instead create character who has a flexible fighting style composed of parts made to work together.  Start with a martial art with maneuvers that allow him to alter his fighting style to suit the situation.  Buy a few broad skill levels and then pick up a few skill levels with specific maneuvers or weapons to round things off.

 

For example pick a Fast Strike and an Offensive Strike.  Purchase a few CSL (say about 4) with the martial art, and then take a few more (again 4) with Fast Strike.   This allows you to boost your OCV with Fast Strike 10 above your base OCV.  That should easily be enough to hit a ton on mooks.  When fighting the main opponent switch to the Offensive strike.  The Extra DCV will mean you are harder to hit and the extra damage means you have a better chance of getting through the more heavily defended opponent.  Your max OCV when doing so is 2 above your base.  You may need to use some of the skill level for DCV or damage so chances are your OCV is not even going to be that high.  You could of course use the Fast Strike on the main villain, but with its lesser damage it will not have as much impact.  

 

This character can mow through the mooks like they are made of paper, but is still challenged by the main opponent.  To me this is a lot better way to create a character than trying to find a way around the rules forbidding purchasing PSL to overcome multiple attack.  Don’t forget that 2pt skill levels can only be used for OCV.  
 

[Ninja-Bear]

10 LEVELs above your base is more reasonable than optional CSLs with Multi Attack? I hardly think so. Some of the characters in Watchers of the Dragon get some high extra CSLs and I tone those down. Naturally this is my opinion.

[LoneWolf]

While by itself having a OCV 10 above your base may seem excessive you also need to factor in that the attack does less damage and your DCV is 1 less than it would be if you used the offensive strike.  The fast strike does 2DC less in base damage and the extra 2 point skill levels cannot boost that.  If you were to put the skill levels into increasing damage on the offensive strike you could raise it up to doing +6 DC above your base damage. 

 

 

In The Hero System just being able to hit does not guarantee you can actually hurt your opponent.  Unlike D&D or other systems you still have to be able to damage your opponent.  This means that your attacks against the real opponents have to be able to do more damage than those against the mooks. Martial arts are a good way to achieve this.  You can take a lower damage high OCV attack for the mooks, and a high damage lower OCV attack to use on more serious opponents. 

 

 

If you have a 14 or less chance to hit it does not matter how you achieve that.  So what is the real difference between straight having 2 point skill levels with a particular maneuver and CSL with a limitation?  Keep in mind the only thing that a 2 point level can be used for is OCV.  I cannot use it to increase damage or even DCV.  The numbers I used were off the top of my head and used to illustrate the point that you can get the ability to take down a lot of mooks without having to use specialized levels. 

[Ockham's Spoon]

So if this is just to simulate the ability of Daredevil or Batman to be able to take out crowds of mooks, just buy a high OCV (or generic levels with combat or martial arts).  The mooks are more combat trained than the average normal, but they shouldn't have a high DCV, which is why the superhero can take on several of them at a time in the first place.  The hero can't do that in the climatic battle against the boss, because the boss has a combat value on par with the superhero.

 

That said, there are techniques to fighting multiple opponents instead of a single opponent, so I would allow combat levels for that with a limitation "Only when fighting multiple opponents".  In real life that would typically be applied to defense so you aren't getting attacked from two different directions at once, but I could see putting those levels toward a Multiple Attack maneuver.

 

If you want your character to be really good at taking on a mob, buy an Area Effect attack, with the special effect that it is rapid bunch of individual attacks.

[Hugh Neilson]

16 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Yeah but with the caveat that a GM can overrule it, that makes the point kinda moot doesn’t it?

 

If so, it renders the rulebooks moot in their entirety as anything can be overridden by the GM.

 

49 minutes ago, Ockham's Spoon said:

If you want your character to be really good at taking on a mob, buy an Area Effect attack, with the special effect that it is rapid bunch of individual attacks.

 

DINGDINGDINGDING

 

A Naked AoE Radius, Selective lets you make a full OCV attack against many targets.  It also does not let you make half a dozen full DC attacks against a major opponent.

 

 

 

 

[Derek Hiemforth]

1 hour ago, Ockham's Spoon said:

So if this is just to simulate the ability of Daredevil or Batman to be able to take out crowds of mooks, just buy a high OCV (or generic levels with combat or martial arts).  The mooks are more combat trained than the average normal, but they shouldn't have a high DCV, which is why the superhero can take on several of them at a time in the first place.  The hero can't do that in the climatic battle against the boss, because the boss has a combat value on par with the superhero.

[snip]

If you want your character to be really good at taking on a mob, buy an Area Effect attack, with the special effect that it is rapid bunch of individual attacks.

 

Agreed on both counts. Most characters don't have extra OCV for fighting multiple mooks. They can just fight multiple mooks because they're really good. If you feel like you can't get your OCV high enough to be as effective against mooks as you should be, maybe the campaign ceiling on OCV needs to be raised.

 

For characters who really do have some super-ability to take out multiple mooks (a speedster is the immediate example that comes to mind), I think a Selective AoE attack is a much better solution than Multiple Attack anyway (for one thing, it won't take a Full Phase or cut your DCV in half, neither of which seems all that appropriate for speedster vs. mooks).

[Dr.Device]

My solution, as a GM, is to extend the spreading rules to HtH attacks. If you've got a punch that can do meaningful damage to the big bad, it should be able to do a pretty good job on three of their minions at -2DC. 

 

Balance-wise, I don't see a good justification for only allowing ranged attacks to be spread.

[Derek Hiemforth]

2 minutes ago, Dr.Device said:

My solution, as a GM, is to extend the spreading rules to HtH attacks. If you've got a punch that can do meaningful damage to the big bad, it should be able to do a pretty good job on three of their minions at -2DC. 

 

Balance-wise, I don't see a good justification for only allowing ranged attacks to be spread.

 

I like this solution, too.   

[Ninja-Bear]

6 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

If so, it renders the rulebooks moot in their entirety as anything can be overridden by the GM.

 

 

DINGDINGDINGDING

 

A Naked AoE Radius, Selective lets you make a full OCV attack against many targets.  It also does not let you make half a dozen full DC attacks against a major opponent.

 

 

 

 

And yet (especially in Fifth) the advice is if the GM permits or in the spirit of Dramatic, Common Sense or Genre is listed? And really, how many Advanced Books have adders or what-nots that just override the original rules? So your response falls flat in face of the evidence.