Multiple Attacks and CSLs

[Ninja-Bear]

5 hours ago, Derek Hiemforth said:

 

Agreed on both counts. Most characters don't have extra OCV for fighting multiple mooks. They can just fight multiple mooks because they're really good. 

That’s not really important. Hero system is designed so (as you know) you build how you want it. Here as is implied is the game specifics. Outside of the game specifics it doesn’t matter if You build it X, I build it Y, Steve Long builds it Z. Fwiw I use published materials all the time for ideas. However there is a big difference between saying “if seen it done this way” versus”everyone does it this way so you must too”.  

[Derek Hiemforth]

23 minutes ago, Ninja-Bear said:

That’s not really important. Hero system is designed so (as you know) you build how you want it. Here as is implied is the game specifics. Outside of the game specifics it doesn’t matter if You build it X, I build it Y, Steve Long builds it Z. Fwiw I use published materials all the time for ideas. However there is a big difference between saying “if seen it done this way” versus”everyone does it this way so you must too”.  

 

Sorry I forgot to prepend my post with "in my opinion..."   

 

Yes, Hero is designed with many ways to accomplish various effects. However, that doesn't mean you or your GM won't prefer (or even require) one particular way.

 

I, as a GM, would probably not allow this affect to be built as extra OCV specifically for Multiple Attack unless I heard a very compelling justification. Most characters in my games don't have extra OCV for fighting multiple mooks. They can just fight multiple mooks well because they're really good (i.e., they have a high OCV in general).

 

And if they do have some special ability for fighting multiple mooks well that isn't based around "being really good," then OCV seems to me like an odd way to model it anyway, because I think of OCV as being a measure of how good you are at hitting things in combat. If that's not the SFX, then another approach seems better to me (such as a Selective AoE attack).

[SCUBA Hero]

8 hours ago, Ockham's Spoon said:

If you want your character to be really good at taking on a mob, buy an Area Effect attack, with the special effect that it is rapid bunch of individual attacks.

This is the route I used for my WWII speedster - "Punch a group".  The thing is, he doesn't have enough Active Points in the MP to add the Selective Advantage.  At some point, I think he's going to have to use that on a mixed group of mook allies and opponents - and then turn himself in to the UCMJ for assaulting friendlies.  Hopefully none of the affected friendlies will want to press charges...

[Sketchpad]

I'd thought about the AoE bit at one point, but it doesn't do what I need it to. In the current campaign that I'm prepping, some of the characters are being converted over from Mutants & Masterminds, Third Edition and they use the Takedown advantage (see Spoilers). Now, that said, this seems much more like Multiple Attacks than an AoE effect, since there's a chance for failure built into it much like Multiple Attacks. However, the advantage doesn't apply a negative modifier, but specifies that it only works on Minions. Hence the limit that I created. 

 

Spoiler

TAKEDOWN (COMBAT, RANKED [2])
If you render a minion incapacitated with an attack, you get an immediate extra attack as a free action against another minion within range and adjacent to the previous target’s location. The extra attack is with the same attack and bonus as the first. You can continue using this advantage until you miss or there are no more minions within range of your attack or your last target.
A second rank in this advantage allows you to attack non-adjacent minion targets, moving between attacks if necessary to do so. You cannot move more than your total speed in the round, regardless of the number of attacks you make. You stop attacking once you miss, run out of movement, or there are no more minions within range of your attack.

 

[Hugh Neilson]

Selective AoE, with the AoE further limited with "first miss ends the sequence of attacks".

 

Or simply accepting that different games have different mechanics, as there is no concept of "minion" and many more combat options in Hero.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Or use Autofire instead of AoE if that flavor is better

[Sketchpad]

26 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

Selective AoE, with the AoE further limited with "first miss ends the sequence of attacks".

 

Or simply accepting that different games have different mechanics, as there is no concept of "minion" and many more combat options in Hero.

 

That seems over-complicated, Hugh. And, sure, different games have different mechanics, but it doesn't seem a hard concept to convert, nor does the idea of "minions" in Hero. As I stated earlier, I think I'll stick to the 2 pt Level for Multiple Attack. Thanks all for input and options.

[SCUBA Hero]

I never did understand the reasoning behind the "you can't buy PSL's to counter the effects of x".  Meh - just buy 5 point CSLs and make a custom Limitation that makes the overall cost come out the same as a PSL.  Technically rules-legal, I would argue, but counter to the spirit of RAW.  Then again, as GM, I would probably allow PSLs on a case-by-case basis (our group looks for balance and exciting challenges and bases decisions on those criteria).

 

But for my Speedster, AOE Non-Selective simulates his Punch-A-Group! well.  He goes into such a frenzy of striking that he (tries to) hit everything in range.  Perhaps at some point he'll get the experience (points) to buy Selective, once he gains more control...

[Ninja-Bear]

1 hour ago, Hugh Neilson said:

Selective AoE, with the AoE further limited with "first miss ends the sequence of attacks".

 

Or simply accepting that different games have different mechanics, as there is no concept of "minion" and many more combat options in Hero.

Or accepting that he noted what he wants?

[dmjalund]

one difference between PSLs and CSLs with Limitations is the Active Point total.

another difference is that once you give a CSL a limitation, it becomes a Power

[Hugh Neilson]

18 hours ago, Sketchpad said:

 

That seems over-complicated, Hugh. And, sure, different games have different mechanics, but it doesn't seem a hard concept to convert, nor does the idea of "minions" in Hero. As I stated earlier, I think I'll stick to the 2 pt Level for Multiple Attack. Thanks all for input and options.

 

My concern on those two point levels is simple.  I can buy 5 such levels, and i can now hit 5 minions with my PulseBlast, once each, with no OCV penalty (assuming I make each relevant to-hit roll).  I can also fire five PulseBlast shots at the Big Bad.  Assume my OCV matches his DCV, so I hit on an 11-.  I have a 9.54% chance to hit five times.  I'll get at least three hits 24.41% of the time.  I have a 62.5% chance to hit at least once.

 

If I can afford the END to attempt to take down five minions, I can afford the END to take a quintuple shot on the Big Bad.  Or maybe I just stick to three shots, where my odds of all three connecting are still pretty decent.  There's no big down side - if I miss them all, or only hit once, that's the result I would have achieved anyway, with a single attack.

 

Oh, and you still don't get the second-tier result of moving between attacks - which, I assume, is not an issue if the Takedown is used with a ranged attack (or does M&M allow the ability to be used in ranged combat?  M&M is more restrictive than Hero in the use of maneuvers/feats).

[SCUBA Hero]

20 hours ago, dmjalund said:

one difference between PSLs and CSLs with Limitations is the Active Point total.

another difference is that once you give a CSL a limitation, it becomes a Power

Both good points.  👍

[Sketchpad]

8 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

Oh, and you still don't get the second-tier result of moving between attacks - which, I assume, is not an issue if the Takedown is used with a ranged attack (or does M&M allow the ability to be used in ranged combat?  M&M is more restrictive than Hero in the use of maneuvers/feats).

 

I've had folks use Takedown for Ranged Combat, as well as Melee. 

 

As for any concerns for using this, I figure I will treat this as a "STOP" power and keep an eye on it. Luckily I have a few decades of running Hero under my belt to back me up.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

 

My concern on those two point levels is simple.  I can buy 5 such levels, and i can now hit 5 minions with my PulseBlast, once each, with no OCV penalty (assuming I make each relevant to-hit roll).  I can also fire five PulseBlast shots at the Big Bad.  

 

 

Well the concept was, as I understand it, to allow people to buy levels only vs hitting mooks and agents, which wouldn't apply to Dr BadGuy

[Hugh Neilson]

I'm not sure what the SFX are for "only works when it doesn't matter much".  We are battling 50 VIPER agents (or so we think) when Captain Mookbasher tosses his mighty shield, applying his +10 PSLs to reduce multiple attack penalties so he can hit 6 agents without penalty.  Unknown to Cap, however, there are five VIPER supervilains in this group, working undercover to trick the heroes, and his third target is one of them.

 

Do his first two attacks take penalties?  They are against minions (at least I assume VIPER agents are minions, and a VIPER Super is not, as we have not defined that term - do villains become minions when they work for a master villain, and lose minion status when they go back to working on their own?).  But the third attack clearly does not get the PSLs.  Cap rolls a 4, but misses.  So much for ViperNinja's 27- Disguise skill and his roll of 5, since it's now pretty clear he's not an ordinary VIPER agent.

 

What SFX make Cap less accurate when the target is not a mook?  The Super has a better DCV, but he already gets his DCV - Cap is 10 OCV less accurate for no reason I can see.

 

From the M&M description, "If you render a minion incapacitated with an attack," - this construct allows attacking minions at no penalty without any need to incapacitate each one in the series, so the ability isn't really duplicated anyway.

[SCUBA Hero]

That feels very comic-book to me.  ViperNinja either *allows* Mookbasher's shield to hit (I'd give him a PER roll to see the incoming attack and allow it to hit, otherwise his instinct is to use full DCV against the attack) *and* probably pretends to be KO'd, or uses his DCV to get out of the way of the attack - thereby revealing himself.  I don't have an issue with that.  Heck, even if the attack hits verses full DCV and he doesn't go down, that reveals him as well.

[Hugh Neilson]

He gets his full (or reduced) DCV either way.  Either Cap's OCV is penalized by 10 or it is not.  What, about ViperNinja's non-minion status, makes it more difficult for Cap to target him as part of a multiple attack?

 

Do his PSLs fail at the outset?  They are not effective for all targets.  If he somehow manages to hit ViperNinja, are they restored?  How does ViperNinja know he has to not only drop his DCV to that of a typical VIPER agent, but drop it 10 points further (what's that, a DCV of negative 5 or 6?  How does he drop his well below that of the broad side of a barn?) 

[Sketchpad]

10 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

I'm not sure what the SFX are for "only works when it doesn't matter much".  We are battling 50 VIPER agents (or so we think) when Captain Mookbasher tosses his mighty shield, applying his +10 PSLs to reduce multiple attack penalties so he can hit 6 agents without penalty.  Unknown to Cap, however, there are five VIPER supervilains in this group, working undercover to trick the heroes, and his third target is one of them.

 

Do his first two attacks take penalties?  They are against minions (at least I assume VIPER agents are minions, and a VIPER Super is not, as we have not defined that term - do villains become minions when they work for a master villain, and lose minion status when they go back to working on their own?).  But the third attack clearly does not get the PSLs.  Cap rolls a 4, but misses.  So much for ViperNinja's 27- Disguise skill and his roll of 5, since it's now pretty clear he's not an ordinary VIPER agent.

 

What SFX make Cap less accurate when the target is not a mook?  The Super has a better DCV, but he already gets his DCV - Cap is 10 OCV less accurate for no reason I can see.

 

From the M&M description, "If you render a minion incapacitated with an attack," - this construct allows attacking minions at no penalty without any need to incapacitate each one in the series, so the ability isn't really duplicated anyway.

 

It's not a question of accuracy, Hugh. It's a question of emulation. There are several comics out there that have heroes plowing through a horde of minions (Hydra, Unnamed Criminals, Lesser Ultrons) that are falling to the wayside while the main villain provides the real challenge. As for what happens when Captain Mookbasher suddenly falls into a trap where ViperNinja's using waves of minions to soften the good Captain up, you keep ViperNinja off to the side while the minions are being fought. Even with the benefit of +10 PSLs, he's only able to apply those to the regular ninjas to offset just the Multi-Attack penalties. So that means he only offsets the -10 from the 6 attackers. -8 if ViperNinja is one of them. He can still fail one of the rolls. He can still get punked by a minion. 

 

56 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

He gets his full (or reduced) DCV either way.  Either Cap's OCV is penalized by 10 or it is not.  What, about ViperNinja's non-minion status, makes it more difficult for Cap to target him as part of a multiple attack?

 

Do his PSLs fail at the outset?  They are not effective for all targets.  If he somehow manages to hit ViperNinja, are they restored?  How does ViperNinja know he has to not only drop his DCV to that of a typical VIPER agent, but drop it 10 points further (what's that, a DCV of negative 5 or 6?  How does he drop his well below that of the broad side of a barn?) 

 

Like I said above, since ViperNinja's not a minion, the levels wouldn't count against him. Why would he have to drop his DCV if he's just pretending to be one of his minions?  

[Ninja-Bear]

Fwiw Sketchpad what your going for would fit into DC:TAS since the genre convention is you gotta fight the horde of goons first.

[Ninja-Bear]

On 6/20/2021 at 9:03 PM, Sketchpad said:

 

I've had folks use Takedown for Ranged Combat, as well as Melee. 

 

As for any concerns for using this, I figure I will treat this as a "STOP" power and keep an eye on it. Luckily I have a few decades of running Hero under my belt to back me up.

I knew it was an assumption on my part, but you were asking as a GM. Which to be fair to everyone else can affect the answer. Even if it’s a warning such as “you are in GM permission territory so you should ask GM”.

[Ninja-Bear]

On 6/18/2021 at 5:15 PM, Derek Hiemforth said:

 

Sorry I forgot to prepend my post with "in my opinion..."   

 

Yes, Hero is designed with many ways to accomplish various effects. However, that doesn't mean you or your GM won't prefer (or even require) one particular way.

 

I, as a GM, would probably not allow this affect to be built as extra OCV specifically for Multiple Attack unless I heard a very compelling justification. Most characters in my games don't have extra OCV for fighting multiple mooks. They can just fight multiple mooks well because they're really good (i.e., they have a high OCV in general).

 

And if they do have some special ability for fighting multiple mooks well that isn't based around "being really good," then OCV seems to me like an odd way to model it anyway, because I think of OCV as being a measure of how good you are at hitting things in combat. If that's not the SFX, then another approach seems better to me (such as a Selective AoE attack).

Sorry if I seemed harsh. My bad. Fwiw, I assumed “in my opinion”.  I was trying to point out for the general audience, (and man I has to learn this lesson), at the end of the day, any rule comes down to the table. I may agree or disagree or be neutral about a question in my own game however I try to answer the poster’s question. 

[Hugh Neilson]

12 hours ago, Sketchpad said:

 

It's not a question of accuracy, Hugh. It's a question of emulation. There are several comics out there that have heroes plowing through a horde of minions (Hydra, Unnamed Criminals, Lesser Ultrons) that are falling to the wayside while the main villain provides the real challenge. As for what happens when Captain Mookbasher suddenly falls into a trap where ViperNinja's using waves of minions to soften the good Captain up, you keep ViperNinja off to the side while the minions are being fought. Even with the benefit of +10 PSLs, he's only able to apply those to the regular ninjas to offset just the Multi-Attack penalties. So that means he only offsets the -10 from the 6 attackers. -8 if ViperNinja is one of them. He can still fail one of the rolls. He can still get punked by a minion. 

 

 

Like I said above, since ViperNinja's not a minion, the levels wouldn't count against him. Why would he have to drop his DCV if he's just pretending to be one of his minions?  

 

To the last, first.  If ViperNinja wants to keep up the deception, he has to be hit as easily as any other VIPER agent.  He can always choose to lower his 10 DCV to 5, and match the VIPER agent.  He has to lower it to negative five to be as easy a target as the VIPER agent in that Multiple Attack.  How does he do that?  What causes Captain Mookbasher to have so much more difficulty hitting ViperNinja as part of a multiple attack, only as part of a multiple attack, and does not make it any harder for anyone else to target ViperNinja?

 

Back to the first, the question to me is the accuracy of the emulation.  Those HYDRA agents have a low DCV, so Cap can use his high OCV to confidently launch an MPA.  They have poor OCVs compared to Cap's high base DCV, so he can plow all of his skill levels into OCV to target a larger number with an MPA and still be confident he can avoid most of their attacks.  They have low DCs, so if a lucky shot or two gets through, Cap's superior defenses and STUN/BOD can protect him.  Their defenses are poor, and their STUN (BOD for the robots) is pretty low, so base damage, not augmented by skill levels (or the lower damage of an AoE attack) can, if not KO them, STUN them.  Combine that with Cap's Speed advantage, and he mows through those mooks.

 

But when he comes up against a more worthy opponent:

 

 - he needs to put levels back into DCV, so he can't pump his OCV to the same levels he can against the mooks;

 - his opponent has a higher DCV, so he can't suck up a bunch of -2 penalties without seriously compromising his chances of hitting with even the first attack;

 - his opponent does much higher damage, so a hit is much mores significant, and Cap has to direct some of those skill levels to DCV (and cannot afford to take the 1/2 DCV penalty of a Multiple Attack either)

 - his opponent has much higher defenses and STUN/BOD, so he can't use lower-DC options as effectively as he could before; and

 - he no longer has the advantage of a significantly higher SPD.

 

The Supers can plow through mooks easily provided mooks are built to be mooks and Supers are constructed as Supers.  There are lots of ways to hit multiple weaker targets.  Multiple Attack is one.  Spreading the attack (lower DCs in exchange for hitting multiple targets) is another.  Area Effect builds are a good construct if you want a MookBuster attack (fits great in a Multipower).

 

Abilities that "only work against mooks" (however we define "mooks") aren't needed.  And, once we have them, what limitation will you give me for abilities that are "not vs mooks"?  OverconfidenceMan slacks off against mooks.  He only brings his full power to bear against truly worthy foes.  So when his MultiBlast hits four mooks and the disguised ViperNinja, it does 8d6 damage against the mooks and 15d6 to ViperNinja. 

 

That's equally acceptable, right?  Heroes like Spider-Man go toe to toe with the Hulk in one issue, then struggle against the Kingpin in the next.

[Sketchpad]

6 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

To the last, first.  If ViperNinja wants to keep up the deception, he has to be hit as easily as any other VIPER agent.  He can always choose to lower his 10 DCV to 5, and match the VIPER agent.  He has to lower it to negative five to be as easy a target as the VIPER agent in that Multiple Attack.  How does he do that?  What causes Captain Mookbasher to have so much more difficulty hitting ViperNinja as part of a multiple attack, only as part of a multiple attack, and does not make it any harder for anyone else to target ViperNinja?

 

Back to the first, the question to me is the accuracy of the emulation.  Those HYDRA agents have a low DCV, so Cap can use his high OCV to confidently launch an MPA.  They have poor OCVs compared to Cap's high base DCV, so he can plow all of his skill levels into OCV to target a larger number with an MPA and still be confident he can avoid most of their attacks.  They have low DCs, so if a lucky shot or two gets through, Cap's superior defenses and STUN/BOD can protect him.  Their defenses are poor, and their STUN (BOD for the robots) is pretty low, so base damage, not augmented by skill levels (or the lower damage of an AoE attack) can, if not KO them, STUN them.  Combine that with Cap's Speed advantage, and he mows through those mooks.

 

But when he comes up against a more worthy opponent:

 

 - he needs to put levels back into DCV, so he can't pump his OCV to the same levels he can against the mooks;

 - his opponent has a higher DCV, so he can't suck up a bunch of -2 penalties without seriously compromising his chances of hitting with even the first attack;

 - his opponent does much higher damage, so a hit is much mores significant, and Cap has to direct some of those skill levels to DCV (and cannot afford to take the 1/2 DCV penalty of a Multiple Attack either)

 - his opponent has much higher defenses and STUN/BOD, so he can't use lower-DC options as effectively as he could before; and

 - he no longer has the advantage of a significantly higher SPD.

 

The Supers can plow through mooks easily provided mooks are built to be mooks and Supers are constructed as Supers.  There are lots of ways to hit multiple weaker targets.  Multiple Attack is one.  Spreading the attack (lower DCs in exchange for hitting multiple targets) is another.  Area Effect builds are a good construct if you want a MookBuster attack (fits great in a Multipower).

 

Abilities that "only work against mooks" (however we define "mooks") aren't needed.  And, once we have them, what limitation will you give me for abilities that are "not vs mooks"?  OverconfidenceMan slacks off against mooks.  He only brings his full power to bear against truly worthy foes.  So when his MultiBlast hits four mooks and the disguised ViperNinja, it does 8d6 damage against the mooks and 15d6 to ViperNinja. 

 

That's equally acceptable, right?  Heroes like Spider-Man go toe to toe with the Hulk in one issue, then struggle against the Kingpin in the next.

 

In the first instance, that might just be the GM using ViperNinja to feint in combat. I would rely less on a combat stat and more on an acting skill to make himself appear to be wounded like the other minions. 

 

As for point two. If I can submit a few pieces of evidence before I go on?

 

 

Sure, these guys have low defenses compared to Captain Mookbasher, but to do what's in these images are representations of Takedown. These poor agents and cops are going to be potentially mowed through like crabgrass on a dry day, and the only hope for them is that good ole Cap roll horribly. The same can be said about Captain America's and Batman's foes in the above image. 

 

Yes, if he runs into ViperNinja suddenly, the combat game changes and now they're more equally challenged. The Takedown rules are no longer in effect, combat slows some, and it becomes more focused. The intent is to make it more cinematic in combat to mow through mooks. BTW, a mook/minion is someone who is a number individual without really any story basis. Viper Agents, Red Shirts, Stormtroopers, AIM Beekeepers, Cobra Soldiers... whatever you want to call them, they're minions. Often numbered like "Hydra Agent 22" or named like these guys...

 

But minions none the same. 

 

As I've mentioned, AoE doesn't work for me. If it works for you, awesome. But it doesn't work for me in the way I'd like to run things. I'd like to think the Multiple Attacks maneuver was built for this kind of thing, but not being able to offset the penalties seems a bit odd, especially in Hero. Particularly since it's a house rule to allow them and you're dead set against me making this ruling, Hugh. And you're not even in my game.  

[Christopher R Taylor]

As I noted before, I understand the prohibition on penalty offsets for Multiple and Combined attacks.  The maneuvers are already really powerful and GMs need to be really cautious about allowing them.  But at the same time, we're simulating genre, and it's important to not hinder or counter genre standards with rules or campaign concerns unless absolutely necessary.  I think allowing them for "trash mobs" or "mooks" is a reasonable compromise that well simulates the genre and the source material.  The examples are incredibly numerous in just about every setting and genre: characters can plow through the goblins/combat bots/agents/etc in large numbers, but have to be more careful and square off individually against more dangerous foes.

[Hugh Neilson]

Looking at both Cap and Batman in the examples provided, they are fighting low-DCV, low-OCV, low-defense, low-SPD opponents.   They can easily use Multiple Attack with the same Skill Levels they would commonly apply to DCV against more credible opponents, and using lower DC, higher CV martial maneuvers (which I expect both Bats and Cap have).

 

As I recall M&M, without an area effect type attack, there is no mechanic to make multiple attacks in a single action, and everyone gets one action per combat round, so Takedown is necessary to allow the source material results shown above.   For that Cap page?

 

Phase 12:  Cap takes down a HYDRA agent (first panel).  SHIELD and Hydra agents are background noise fighting.  More HYDRA agents run on screen.

 

Phase 2:  Cap charges the agents and does a Multiple Attack on three of them.  Might be a Move By or Move Through, or just an Acrobatic half move with a surprise attack bonus.

 

Phase 4:  Cap has the higher DEX, and acts again, using another Multiple Attack, whether on the same three agents or a different trio.  Assuming he can STUN them, six in two phases removes all six from taking actions in Phase 4.

 

A 6 SPD Cap with all skill levels in OCV can easily duplicate that without needing specialized penalty offsetters for a Multiple Attack.

 

Now, when Mr. Hyde walks on, Cap will need to use higher DC attacks, he's not going to be halving his DCV to get multiple attacks and he'll want to minimize any chance of being hit by Hyde's massive STR (or worse, being Grabbed), so at least some skill levels will be going to DCV.

 

Similar for Bats and Harley.  Their combat skills are so far and away superior that they can afford to use Multiple Attacks to mow through mooks.

 

Bats, Cap and Harley don't need an AoE.  But they do need opponents in close proximity, consistent with Hero's "can't move after an attack" restriction.  Cap isn't moving between attacks on each target group.  They could multiple attack at range (the shield or batarangs), but those examples don't require it.