How much of a limitation would Needs END be?

[LoneWolf]

How much do you think a limitation that the character has to have END to use would be worth?  I am not talking about a power that actually cost END even to start.  The idea I am working on is mainly for a suit of powered armor with numerous abilities that draw miniscule amount of power.  I had considered using an END and just having the power cost END, but that ends up requiring the END reserve to be huge with a large recovery or the power don’t last as long as they should.  When I do that it means that the other abilities used by the reserve recover much faster than they should.  The Cost END to start does not fit because once the power is drained the power should not work.  I was thinking that this would be worth about a -1/4 limitations, but I am interested in what other people have to say.

 

This could also be used for other things like a minor spell that does not require a lot of energy, or abilities that don’t work when the character is exhausted.  
 

[Stonewild]

In any limitation value consideration, I start with asking how much does this really affect the character or power?  Endurance only matters when you can run out of it.   Like having 16 charges is no limitation, because you will hardly ever run out of 16 charges.  

 

As I understand your question:  there is no real disadvantage in most situations, thus no limitation value.  A limitation of -1/4 could be okay - if you think this would limit the toon in 1 out of 4 adventures?      

Edited June 27, 2021 by Stonewild

[Simon]

You're not talking about a Limitation for the character needing to have END-- if the Power uses END, then needing to have END available is just the nature of the Power.

If you want the Power to be used a limited number of times, use the Charges Limitation. There are a LOT of options to play with there where you can represent fuel (Fuel Charges, Recoverable Charges, etc.)

 

If you want the Power to be otherwise normal but draw off of a small battery/reserve, buy multiple END Reserves -- to power each individual component as needed.  Which Reserve a given component uses is defined when buying that component -- maybe the same as others, maybe one all its own.  In either case, not a Limitation, just how you set it up/build it.

[foolishvictor]

Lonewolf, my suggestion to you is to forget the rules for a moment and imagine how you want the powers in the powered armor to function.  I find it helps to put it in writing.  It forces me to stick with a single idea.  Once that is done consider when the powers work and when they won't work.  How limited are the powers?  To quote a book: A limitation which doesn't limit the character isn't worth any bonus. 

 

Simply requiring the a character have some END does not sound limiting to me but in your campaign it might be.  How often do characters have zero END?  Does every enemy have an effective END Drain?

 

Both Stonewild and Simon have provided solid advice in their earlier posts.

 

 

[LoneWolf]

What I am trying to simulate is a suit of powered armor that has a battery that powers the armor. Its combat systems draw a lot of power so the suit is not able to operate at full combat readiness for long periods of time.  Other systems like enhanced senses draw significantly less power and can operate for much longer periods.  If the all the power in the batteries are used up all systems requiring any power no longer function.   Out of combat the armor can function for about a day, in combat with everything running it will probably exhaust its power within a few minutes especially if it is using its weapon systems.   So if the character has to fight too long he will end up with a lot of systems that no longer function.  

 

Purchasing the END reserve is not the problem, the problem is getting it to work right.  If I make the minor power cost END the END used means the battery has to be so large that it become too expensive to be practical. Purchasing an END reserve with 20,000 END simply does not work.  It would also allow the system to operate at full combat readiness for way too long.  I could make the minor power not cost END, in fact most of them by default do not.  But then I end up with a situation where the minor powers continue to function when there is no power.   The END batteries will be small enough that the character will occasionally have to completely deplete them.  

 

What I am asking is do other people think this is limiting enough to be worth a -1/4 limitation.   If it is not going to reduce the cost of the power then I might as well just keep the powers not costing END and have them available with no restrictions.    
 

[Greywind]

Endurance battery with low or zero Rec.

[LoneWolf]

It will take about an hour to fully charge the battery.  The recovery time will be increased even if the number is high.   I am trying to go for a fairly realistic approach.  

[Grailknight]

1 hour ago, LoneWolf said:

What I am trying to simulate is a suit of powered armor that has a battery that powers the armor. Its combat systems draw a lot of power so the suit is not able to operate at full combat readiness for long periods of time.  Other systems like enhanced senses draw significantly less power and can operate for much longer periods.  If the all the power in the batteries are used up all systems requiring any power no longer function.   Out of combat the armor can function for about a day, in combat with everything running it will probably exhaust its power within a few minutes especially if it is using its weapon systems.   So if the character has to fight too long he will end up with a lot of systems that no longer function.  

 

Purchasing the END reserve is not the problem, the problem is getting it to work right.  If I make the minor power cost END the END used means the battery has to be so large that it become too expensive to be practical. Purchasing an END reserve with 20,000 END simply does not work.  It would also allow the system to operate at full combat readiness for way too long.  I could make the minor power not cost END, in fact most of them by default do not.  But then I end up with a situation where the minor powers continue to function when there is no power.   The END batteries will be small enough that the character will occasionally have to completely deplete them.  

 

What I am asking is do other people think this is limiting enough to be worth a -1/4 limitation.   If it is not going to reduce the cost of the power then I might as well just keep the powers not costing END and have them available with no restrictions.    
 

 

Looking for options in the existing RAW, the closest I can come up with is Non-persistent. Similar to what you want but no an exact match. It can be added to powers that normally don't cost END(but not combined with the Costs END modifier)

 

This Modifier is limiting but not as much as Costs END Only to Activate but depending on the campaign might still be worth -1/4 if the  armor is constantly running out of END. 

[Opal]

It seems obvious that a power that normally doesn't cost END nor need to be turned on or off would be limited by what you describe.  The sticking point is that there might be other -1/4 limitations that seem more limiting.  The Costs END to start you already mentioned, for instance does use some END, however little or infrequently - but It also stays up when the END reserve is depleted.

 

There are also, oddly, -1/2 limitations that seem similar,  like Linked if you linked a small 0END power to one that cost even 1 END to maintain, that would have the effect that you couldn't use the smaller power when out of END. (I think.  ...the old Great Linked Debate left me with confused memories of how it officially worked in 4e or 5e - IDEK if it's in 6e.)

6e Unified power limitation also feels similar, since they're all powers that are part of one electrical system.

 

So, I'd say 'Yes' to the -1/4 limitation as described.  

[Derek Hiemforth]

I recommend keeping your life simple...

 

Have an END Reserve for the Powers that cost END to use, as per usual. Then, for the smaller Powers that don't technically cost END to use, but that you can't use if the suit's batteries are dead, take a -¼ Limited Power Limitation: "Doesn't Work if Suit's Batteries Are Dead."

 

Easy-peasy lemon squeezey.   

 

Of course, this presumes that the GM agrees that the suit will have dead batteries often enough to warrant a -¼ Limitation...

[archer]

If I'm understanding your description correctly, I wouldn't think it worth a limitation. 

 

 

As an alternate idea, how about some or all of the powers quit being functional if the End battery ever zeroes out.

 

You could either treat it like Burnout or treat it as "they go into complete shutdown until the END Battery is once again fully charged". I'd easily give that idea a -1/4.

 

You could apply it to all of the little utility powers that makes the characters adventures easier.

 

Or you could instead let all of those little powers turn back on as soon as more END shows back up in the Battery and apply the limitation to the honking big combat powers and/or movement.

[foolishvictor]

10 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

What I am trying to simulate is a suit of powered armor that has a battery that powers the armor. Its combat systems draw a lot of power so the suit is not able to operate at full combat readiness for long periods of time.  Other systems like enhanced senses draw significantly less power and can operate for much longer periods.  If the all the power in the batteries are used up all systems requiring any power no longer function.   Out of combat the armor can function for about a day, in combat with everything running it will probably exhaust its power within a few minutes especially if it is using its weapon systems.   So if the character has to fight too long he will end up with a lot of systems that no longer function.  

 

Purchasing the END reserve is not the problem, the problem is getting it to work right.  If I make the minor power cost END the END used means the battery has to be so large that it become too expensive to be practical. Purchasing an END reserve with 20,000 END simply does not work.  It would also allow the system to operate at full combat readiness for way too long.  I could make the minor power not cost END, in fact most of them by default do not.  But then I end up with a situation where the minor powers continue to function when there is no power.   The END batteries will be small enough that the character will occasionally have to completely deplete them.  

 

What I am asking is do other people think this is limiting enough to be worth a -1/4 limitation.   If it is not going to reduce the cost of the power then I might as well just keep the powers not costing END and have them available with no restrictions.    
 

 

Derek's suggestion makes a lot of sense because simplicity makes for a good game.  That said, his solution misses the concept of the non-combat systems depleting the END Reserve when the powered armor is active but out of combat.

 

If you are not afraid of keeping track of some numbers then I suggest adding a miscellaneous power draw on the END Reserve by a small amount when out of combat.  For example it could draw 1% every 15 minutes.  Thus, the END Reserve would be fully depleted after 25 hours.  Using this approach, if the fully charged powered armor has an END Reserve with 1000 END and sits idle but ready for two hours (8*15minutes) then it will have consumed 80 END (8% of its total) while waiting.  At that point a fight breaks out and the powered armor has 920 END remaining in the END Reserve.  During the fight it consumes 350 END leaving it with 570 END.  That's 57% of a full charge which is enough for it to sit idle but ready for another 14 hours before being depleted.  

 

Whether or not the limitation is worth -1/4 depends on the campaign.  If the powered armor is needed for long missions and is difficult to recharge then the limitation could be higher.  If powered armor is always used near a base where it can be recharged easily then it is probably worth nothing.  It would also depend on how often combat occurs and how long combat lasts.  Also, can the powered armor use it's non-combat systems (enhanced senses) while recharging?

 

For most campaigns I think -1/4 as a limitation is reasonable.  If there are missions with long durations or multiple, long combats between chances to recharge then -1/2 could be justified.

 

[Simon]

I still think you're creating a contrived problem.

 

You're describing a basic power armor setup.  Take the basic systems (e.g. Life Support, Enhanced Senses, etc.) -- everything that draws power from the suit (or requires the suit to be powered).  All of them that are normally Persistent/0-END abilities take the Costs END Limitation with the END Reserve set as their END source. They also should likely take Always On, since it sounds like you don't want the character turning them off to conserve energy (though if you're ok with disabling basic functionality in order to eke out the last bits of the Reserve for a big Blast, then don't take this).  The END Reserve's REC is set to be _slightly_ less than what these systems will draw.  Let's say that all the basic systems total out to 40 END - set the Reserve REC to 39.  You'll be able to run for a long time before the Reserve runs out...unless you fire up other energy-hogging abilities that drain the Reserve faster (like combat abilities -- shields, blasters, etc.).  

 

Set the size of the Reserve itself based on the typical drain during a combat situation - what it would take in a given Phase to have typical basic systems fired up, plus defenses and common attacks. Multiply by the character's SPD and then determine how long you want the character to be in full combat before running out of juice (e.g 2 minutes of full combat would multiply by an additional 10 -- 10 rounds * characters SPD * END drain per Phase)

 

Note: having a character "only" be able to be in full combat for a few minutes is not only not-limiting, it's very much on the long side of typical.

[zslane]

I guess you could assign a -1/4 "Real Powered Armor" Limitation, like the Real Weapon Limitation that imposes "real world" limitations to weapons as a single catch-all Limitation worth -1/4.

[LoneWolf]

The recovery of the END reserve only works when it is plugged in at the base and even then it has a delayed rate of recovery.  It will probably take about an hour or so to fully charge all the batteries.  This is done to try and keep some sense of realism.  The idea is that the suit can and will run out of power if the character is not careful.   Once the power is gone most of the systems shut down.  The only things that function are the physical characteristics of the suit like resistant defense, flash defense and a few others powers continue to function.  It communications system and most of its system don’t.  Its major systems like weapons, force field and flight all take considerable power so have limited use.  Its communications array and some life support can operate for extended periods of time.  

 

The problem with making the minor systems cost END is that for them to function would require a lot of END.  Assume the character has a 4 SPD.  If a power cost even 1 END that would require 1,200 END to run it for 1 hour.  Now since a lot of time would be out of combat the character could drop his speed to 2 to reduce that down to 600.  Figure there are about 4 minor systems and you need an END reserve of 2,400 to 4,800.  Spending 400 – 800 points on an END reserve is not an option.   I could abuse the hell out of the rule about getting x2 for +5 points by purchasing 512, 12 END reserves with a Recovery of 3pts per 20 minutes to bring the cost down.  But even if I do so that it does not do what it is supposed to do.  At that point the character can fight a lot longer then he should.

 

If I don’t put any limitations on the recovery of the battery it also does not fit the concept.  I can and have easily written up characters that can fight forever by calculating out the amount of recover and not putting limits on when it can recover.  That does not fit either the character or the campaign.  
 

[Simon]

You're still just borrowing trouble.

 

Buy 2 Reserves, if you want.  

 

Reserve 1 powers the essentials.  Has a REC slightly less than the burn rate of the essentials.  Any non-com ability that you want to run off of the suit takes the Limitations mentioned above (Costs END, Always On), where appropriate.

 

Reserve 2 powers the combat abilities. Has a REC that only applies when at the base.

 

Done.

If you want Reserve 1 to only function when Reserve 2 is active (has END available), that's a simple Linked on Reserve 1.

[Derek Hiemforth]

7 minutes ago, Simon said:

You're still just borrowing trouble.

 

Buy 2 Reserves, if you want.  

 

Reserve 1 powers the essentials.  Has a REC slightly less than the burn rate of the essentials.  Any non-com ability that you want to run off of the suit takes the Limitations mentioned above (Costs END, Always On), where appropriate.

 

Reserve 2 powers the combat abilities. Has a REC that only applies when at the base.

 

Done.

If you want Reserve 1 to only function when Reserve 2 is active (has END available), that's a simple Linked on Reserve 1.

 

Yeah, but then you still have to keep track of END for all of these little powers that aren't normally END-using powers. That's fine if you don't mind the bookkeeping, but I definitely see the appeal of just saying, "These peripheral systems all work as long as the main batteries aren't dead" for the sake of simplicity.   

[unclevlad]

1 minute ago, Derek Hiemforth said:

 

Yeah, but then you still have to keep track of END for all of these little powers that aren't normally END-using powers. That's fine if you don't mind the bookkeeping, but I definitely see the appeal of just saying, "These peripheral systems all work as long as the main batteries aren't dead" for the sake of simplicity.   

 

Yeah, plus, Costs END will mean each little power will cost 1+ END, making for a ridiculously large-looking drain.    And as noted, it's a bookkeeping PITA.  I'd have to look at what you want to apply that to, but I might allow a -1/4 limitation.  Guys, a point here to consider is this is probably getting a -1/2 OIF (Power Armor Suit) blanket limit, so an extra -1/4 on small stuff won't be saving many points at all.

 

The armor's END Reserve can't recharge except at the base is a MAJOR issue, IMO.  Especially if this cuts the life support off.  Not thinking in game terms here;  I'm putting on my combat engineer and systems integrator caps.  I'd design it differently, I think...if the END reserve drops below a certain point, offensive systems shut down.  Below another, lower, point, defenses that cost END cut out.  You DO NOT want comms and life support being lost;  that's a deathtrap design.

[Simon]

13 minutes ago, Derek Hiemforth said:

 

Yeah, but then you still have to keep track of END for all of these little powers that aren't normally END-using powers. That's fine if you don't mind the bookkeeping, but I definitely see the appeal of just saying, "These peripheral systems all work as long as the main batteries aren't dead" for the sake of simplicity.   

The concept that he’s after is fiddly by nature (and questionably conceived, as noted above). I dislike handwavium to get around bad/fiddly concepts.

[Derek Hiemforth]

7 minutes ago, Simon said:

The concept that he’s after is fiddly by nature (and questionably conceived, as noted above). I dislike handwavium to get around bad/fiddly concepts.

 

Fair enough.  Honestly, were I building it, I would build it very much like you suggest, where non-combat systems have their own END Reserve that has a REC almost (but maybe not quite) big enough to keep up with the bleed if they're all used at once. Then the weapons systems can be powered from a different reserve that only recharges at the base, etc.

[unclevlad]

Yeah, Dan, but yours is going to be worse, I gotta say.  

 

Figure that the suit comms (enhanced sense), sensors (probably multiple lines from Enhanced Senses), and life support all have Costs END continuously.  EACH power will cost 1 END, quite probably;  they'll be below 15 points for the most part.  You may *well* be looking at 5-6 END per phase because they're separate powers.  So you're looking at a *high* REC.

Now, you can bypass this a bit by defining a single Custom Power, to bundle all of these together and thereby get *1* Active Point cost to use to determine the END cost.  But the senses and LS will add up;  it's still likely 3 END per phase, and thus still a rather high REC for your Reserve #1.  

Also in your build, you can't wear the suit indefinitely, even if you're doing nothing.

 

The problem I think is that comms, sensors, and life support inherently don't cost END for a reason, and thus applying Costs END adds an *insane* load onto the armor's electrical systems compared to the offensive and defensive systems.  So I don't think it's handwavium here, it's a problem with the translation into END.

 

 

[Simon]

That’s all in figuring the reserve…in play, it’s pre-figured - reserve 1 will last for 2 days (or whatever).

 

as for cost - that’s the concept.

[unclevlad]

Let's assign that your Reserve 1 has a REC that's 1 lower than the per-turn END cost, which is the recovery interval for an END Reserve.  Doesn't matter what the actual END per turn amounts to.  So the reserve has to be sized at 1 per turn of operation.  That's 5 per minute, or 300 per hour.  Even 6 hours...which might be an OK mission operation time...is 1800 END.  That's 450 points before limitations, IIRC.  That is ludicrous, and if the intent is to model a tech armor suit, it's a total failure.

 

Granted:  if you break it down like this, the suit's combat END reserve is gonna be hideously large if it's to operate for any extended period.  Even with Reduced END.  Or it uses charges.  But again, look at the design, look at the combat mission profile for which these would be deployed.  Now work out the weapons loadouts and END requirements.  It might be nastier than you think.

[LoneWolf]

If I am linking one reserve to another why not simply link the powers the second reserve power to the reserve and not bother with the second reserve.   That is a lot more complicated and expensive so it makes no sense to do that.  You should not have to pay more to limit a character and Simons way is costing more than having the power not use END.  

 

The weapon system cost 6 END per phase, the Force Field and flight both cost 1 END per phase.  None of the other systems actually cost any END.   The self-contained breathing uses an oxygen tanks so is bought with a fuel charge.  So the only life support that uses power is the climate control (Immune to heat and cold).   This allows the character to operate for extended periods out of combat, but after a big battle he may end up walking home in a sweat box.  

 

Real world a combat capable laser uses a lot more power than a radio.  That is the basis of the concept I am working from.
 

[Simon]

8 hours ago, unclevlad said:

Let's assign that your Reserve 1 has a REC that's 1 lower than the per-turn END cost, which is the recovery interval for an END Reserve.  Doesn't matter what the actual END per turn amounts to.  So the reserve has to be sized at 1 per turn of operation.  That's 5 per minute, or 300 per hour.  Even 6 hours...which might be an OK mission operation time...is 1800 END.  That's 450 points before limitations, IIRC.  That is ludicrous, and if the intent is to model a tech armor suit, it's a total failure.

 

Granted:  if you break it down like this, the suit's combat END reserve is gonna be hideously large if it's to operate for any extended period.  Even with Reduced END.  Or it uses charges.  But again, look at the design, look at the combat mission profile for which these would be deployed.  Now work out the weapons loadouts and END requirements.  It might be nastier than you think.

You're basing that calculation on 6 hours of combat.  That's not how END works over time.