Reduce Mass w/o reduction to Volume.

[Utensil]

I know Density Increase increases Mass. But how would one handle mass Density Decrease? Making a Character lighter and/or having character reduce another's or object's mass?

 

[LoneWolf]

It depends on what the effect of reducing mass accomplishes.  For the most part there are not a whole lot of benefits for having reduced mass.  In fact the drawbacks may even out way the benefits, In which case it would be a physical complication.

 

In some cases it may allow you to do things other cannot.  For example having less mass may allow you to control how you fall.  In that case you could purchase gliding. 

[Christopher R Taylor]

One of the Advanced Player Guides has some ideas for a power of adjusting density, but it really comes down to how that affects you in the game.  You can handwave the weight thing, because your character weighs pretty much whatever you claim they do.  Buy some vulnerability to knockback to represent being lighter, and you're done.

[Utensil]

An example would be lighten the mass of of 747 plane so one can just walk off with it. Or to just carry downed companions more easier. 

I suppose +Str only to self and others to lift said objects or persons?

[Duke Bushido]

49 minutes ago, Utensil said:

An example would be lighten the mass of of 747 plane so one can just walk off with it. Or to just carry downed companions more easier. 

I suppose +Str only to self and others to lift said objects or persons?

 

 

Ah!

 

It's not something you want to use on yourself as a power; I see.

 

Thank you for clarifying.

 

My standby for stuff like that is Shrinking: Does not reduce physical size / volume, Useable as Attack.

 

It's got built-in rules for determining just how much weight disappears, but there is no mandated "my hand goes right through it!" aspect.  In your case, you might get a better  Limitation, as you won't be (I assume) wanting to apply the CV modifiers, etc.  Shrkinking: Only to Reduce Weight, UaA

 

 

[LoneWolf]

If you want to change the mass of something besides yourself transform is a good way to do it.  If all you are changing is the weight of the target it would probably a minor transform.  If you are altering thing that will affect combat like its DEF and BODY, then it is probably a major transform. You could even do a cosmetic transform if the weight reduction was fairly low.  This has the benefit of permanent. 

 

 Using Shrinking as an attack is going to be expensive.  

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah if you want to use it on others, the shrinking trick works.  Advanced Players Guide I has Alter Density power as a variant of Desolidification, that's worth looking at.

[Utensil]

The 'Special Effect' would be that Gravity would not be able to strongly latch onto something .... so person/object under the "effect" while within earth's gravity field would be like they are on the Moon to represent the effect gravity has on that person. So they could jump further, be lighter for others to carry them, when hit they take increase knockback ... et. cetera.

[Utensil]

Was thinking this might be valid write up!?

 

Shunt Gravity:  One to Three Levels Of "Variant" Shrinking, Each Level Reduces Mass By 1/8th, And Subject Takes An additional +6m KB, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Usable Simultaneously (Up To 4 People At Once; +1 1/2), Grantor Pays The END Whenever The Power Is Used, Grantor Controls The Power Totally, Recipient Must Be Within Standard Range Of The Grantor For Power To Be Granted (54 Active Points); Does Not Reduce Height, Nor Increase DCV And Does Not Effect PER Rolls To Perceive Character (-3/4)

Cost 31 Character Points

 

OR As An Attack

 

Shunt Gravity:  Minor Transform 9d6 (Transform Object/Person Into Lighter Weight Version Of Object/Person, 0.00390625 Weight, +10m KB Modifier Only Increases The Distance A Character/Object Travels From Knockback, Not The Damage Taken Character/Object Takes. , Default Of REC 4 For Objects) (45 Active Points); Rapid Healing REC per Hour (-1)

Real Cost 22

Cost 4 Endurance

 

HERO Designer only allows a Maximum of -1 for Rapid Healing.

[Duke Bushido]

Your character; your game.

 

This makes it your call, entirely.  Myself, I tend to go with modified versions of existing things when at all possible, with the payoff that I don't have to build everything from scratch (as the "base thing" tends to have most, if not all, of what I am looking or anyway), and I don't have to worry about it "healing back."

 

For what it's worth, either one should do what you want to accomplish.

 

 

[steriaca]

What I dislike about Alter Density is that by default it allows going through objects and walls and such. Sure, it takes longer to walk through a wall or door, but that is always an option. 

 

But if we strip the desolification part from the power, what else is there which is advantage? Can be easily picked up and carried? Won't trigger certain weight sensitive traps? Not much to justify buying 10 to 30 points in Desolification to simulate that you can weigh less than normal.

[unclevlad]

I hate Transform, I'll say that outright, for this kind of thing.  You're not changing the target at all, so it makes no real sense to me.   

 

The straightforward approach is simply +X STR, only to lift;  the SFX is the gravity cancellation.  

 

BTW:  cancelling the gravity does NOT!!!! cancel the mass.  You can lift, yes...but not throw, for example.  Momentum = mass * velocity.  Just because you can puck up a 10 ton object, and if you throw it, it'll continue to move forward...when it hits something  it's with all the momentum you were able to impart.  So, increassed KB should NOT apply, IMO.  

 

And if you have to completely re-write the conditions, then the power doesn't form a very good basis.  WIth the Transform, it's wrong because its success or failure is based on something that doesn't per se apply.  Mass != BODY per se.  

 

By my lights:  keep it simple.  STR, only to lift.  Don't need to get into the complexities of UAA.  Don't need to worry about the properties of the target, because you're the target.  The object's mass and size matter...nice and simple.

 

steriaca:  I agree that Alter Density/alternate Desolid per APG has major issues, because its end-game is Desolid.  That doesn't represent a physical density reduction to me.  My basis has been to give it a bonus to Contortionist, so it's still valuable for escaping an Entangle or passing through narrow openings, and some defense bonus.  The rest can be Linked...Damage Negation or Damage Reduction, for example.  I don't add increased KB;  my notion is plastic deformation.

 

 

[Duke Bushido]

47 minutes ago, steriaca said:

What I dislike about Alter Density is that by default it allows going through objects and walls and such. Sure, it takes longer to walk through a wall or door, but that is always an option. 

 

But if we strip the desolification part from the power, what else is there which is advantage? Can be easily picked up and carried? Won't trigger certain weight sensitive traps? Not much to justify buying 10 to 30 points in Desolification to simulate that you can weigh less than normal.

 

 

That was my thought at first, too, until he clarified that he wanted to be able to do this to things / characters that were not him.

[Duke Bushido]

36 minutes ago, unclevlad said:

I hate Transform, I'll say that outright, for this kind of thing. 

 

I'm with you.  I hate it for all kinds of things except for actually changing one thing into something else.  4e and all the Transform / EDM / Desolid hacks just left a really bad taste in my mouth that only got worse with the splitting into "kinds of Transform." 

 

 

36 minutes ago, unclevlad said:

You're not changing the target at all, so it makes no real sense to me.   

 

The straightforward approach is simply +X STR, only to lift;  the SFX is the gravity cancellation.  

 

He is still going to have to go with some pretty in-depth builds there to simulate what he's stated thus far:

 

if he can reduce the mass / weight of up to four objects, he's likely not going to carry them all.  So he would have to make his +STR useable by others and either "as attack" or some other "force them to have it" since they likely can't just choose to ignore that the airplane is now light as a feather.  It's also going to have to have an AoE or a 'useable by as many people as can touch it at once' or some other such thing.

 

If the object is lighter / less massive to the one character alone, then sure: extra STR.  But then you still need another build to increase knockback when someone else hits it.  If the extra STR is useable by everyone in the area and everyone in the area is punching the lightened McGuffin, no biggie.  But then there's that one guy who hit it with an iceblast-- no STR involved.  You'll need a build for that, too.

 

 

 

 

 

36 minutes ago, unclevlad said:

BTW:  cancelling the gravity does NOT!!!! cancel the mass.  You can lift, yes...but not throw, for example.  Momentum = mass * velocity.  Just because you can puck up a 10 ton object, and if you throw it, it'll continue to move forward...when it hits something  it's with all the momentum you were able to impart.  So, increassed KB should NOT apply, IMO. 

 

You are absolutely not wrong; I want to be clear on that.

 

I also want to be clear that I am not well-versed in comic books, so what I am about to say may not hold water:

 

In a comic book universe, I personally don't have a problem with this.  Buy using the proposed Shrinking build, it's not even an issue, since Shrinking states that the Shrunk is reduced in mass and gains additional KB penalties.  Sure: reducing mass and maintaining volume would _have_ to result in loss of density, but again: comic book world means it doesn't have to.   I look to the Antman movie for this:

 

Okay, Hank, you have all your density / STR, so you can hit like a man, and flip someone over like a grown man, but somehow, you can ride on a flying ant, too.  And periodically, you will get smacked, and you will go sailing, because you're small, regardless of the fact that your mass is now so tightly compressed you should simply leave a hole in the hand of the person smacking you (and not actually be able to move yourself, or hold enough oxygen to stay alive, but it's comics: we suspend disbelief for that sort of thing).  I would not be surprised to find the comics are chock full of "density of convenience" issues.  Again, I might be completely wrong; I only have the movies to go by. 

 

 

(of course, I can't point to Antman without screaming "plumbing does not work that way!"  )

 

 

 

 

36 minutes ago, unclevlad said:

And if you have to completely re-write the conditions, then the power doesn't form a very good basis.  WIth the Transform, it's wrong because its success or failure is based on something that doesn't per se apply.  Mass != BODY per se.  

 

By my lights:  keep it simple.  STR, only to lift.  Don't need to get into the complexities of UAA.

 

Crap.  This would have been a much better place to mention all the complex additions to do what he listed above with just additional STR.     Sorry about that.  I have been away from the board for a few days, and generally enjoy discussing things with you, so when I saw your name, I kinda dove right in.    Sincere apologies for the lack of prepwork.

 

 

 

 

36 minutes ago, unclevlad said:

Don't need to worry about the properties of the target, because you're the target.

 

I am not sure where you were pointing with that one, Sir.  As I understand it, the character is able to target up to for other people or things with this power simultaneously.

 

 

 

[LoneWolf]

If you are controlling gravity another option would be telekinesis.  Put limitation that it only counters the weight of the object.  That should be at least a -1 limitation if not more.  If you can affect more than one target add on a small area of effect.  

 

Use the rules for combined STR to figure out how far someone could move the object.  So if you had 30 STR TK that would allow you to counter about 1,600 kg.  So if someone wanted to move an object weighting 2,000 kg they would need a 20 STR.  If the object weighed 800 KG a person with a 10 STR would be able to move it like he had an extra 25 STR.  
 

 

[unclevlad]

Telekinesis is another option.  It may well be better;   it's more natural for relatively large objects like a car or small plane.  No need to sweat "oh, I really should have AoE on my STR to lift this" if you're trying to be semi-realistic. It would allow lifting multiple objects implicitly, too.

 

As for limitations, well, you can readily take Affects Whole Object;  that follows the power description.  Limited Range...certainly.  I always view gravity control as a *relatively* short-range power, and standard range is gonna be huge.  You're already at -1/2.  Saying it only counters the weight...is that really -1?  What is actually lost by this?  It doesn't change the lift.  It does say you can't use it to Strike, but depending on how much you're buying, is that justification for a -1?  From what OP is saying, you *can* still use it to 'grab' and lift someone, altho...how hard is it to break out?  You're being held off the ground, but there isn't really anything for you to target.  (Drew Hayes did this with his telekinetic types.  They could negate a strong man because there was no leverage for him.  This matches what OP is after, IMO.  Whether it's balanced...or can be expressed in a reasonable manner?  Have to think about that some more.....
 

[LoneWolf]

The -1 limitation means you cannot grab or lift at all.  All you can do is add the STR of the TK when someone else is lifting.  That matches when the OP was asking for.  You could certainly alter that to allow for more flexibility which would of course lower or eliminate the limitation.  

 

I could see someone with gravity control using straight TK with no limitation at all.  Depending on how precise the control was you might even be able to justify fine control.   Without knowing more details about what the power is it is difficult to give more than some very general advice.  
 

[unclevlad]

Mmmm...I'd have to think about it.  But if you're going that way, then why call it TK?  Why not simply call it STR?  What's gained?  It's more expensive, it's a lot harder to stack.

[Duke Bushido]

Forgive the brevity; I am on a phone and dont have my,readeing glasses,with me, but the immediate gains are range, area of effect, and the ability for other people to take advantage of it.

[LoneWolf]

The cost of TK is the same as applying the at range to STR.   From a cost stand point there is no difference Also TK has some indirect properties that make it worth using over STR at range.  Being able to work through a barrier without having to break the barrier is a good enough reason to use it over STR. 

[Duke Bushido]

I was agreeing with you, actually-- TK has benefits over +STR, the most significant being other people can take advantage of the effect.

 

The reason I still prefer the Shrinking method is the 1/8 mass thing.

 

if I have +X points of STR or TK or some variant of those, I can negate Y amount of weight.  If the item weighs less than Y, it's totally weightless.  If it weighs Y+10 kg, then it weighs 10 kg.   If I have +30 STR of "remove weight," it's not going to make an appreciable difference against an aircraft carrier or Smurfian Dreadnought or what-have-you.

 

 

Those same 30 base points put into Shrinking result in a final mass of 1/512 the original, without regard for the initial weight.   Granted, you might only get 2 "levels" of Shrinking after a couple of mods like UaA or whatever you might take on there, but even that still yields a reduction down to 1/64 of the original weight.  Still, I would think that "only to reduce weight" is sufficient enough Limitation to allow 3 "levels" of Shrinking, if not a tad more. 

 

At any rate, if I use +25 STR against a human target, I can render him completely weightless (assuming a limitation that it is only to counteract gravity's effect on him.  Without that, I can launch him into space eventually).  If I use =25 STR against just the anchor of an aircraft carrier (30,000 pounds, or roughly 13608 kg), I give it a final weight of 12008 kg, or approximately 26417 pounds.   Still pretty hard to heave, even for supers (you'd need to apply another STR of about 29 to lift and stagger off with it.

 

With only three (and again, though I am loathe to use the word for this, it's a handy reference) "levels" of Shrinking, those 30,000 pounds become 59 pounds (call it 26.6 kg).  Generally, similar costs, similar END expense, but one of them creates a truly impressive super power.  Cost and the possible annoyance of cobbling were brought up above, but the cobbling is minimal (add a single Limitation) and the point-for-point expense makes Shrinking a clear winner, even after adding UaA and Range.

 

Just my two cents worth, of course.

 

Alternatively, you could use DI in a sort of reverse: remove additional Characteristics at X per "level" and reduce mass at Y per level.  On the surface, you are broadening DI into "Density Manipulation," but since DI has no "must change size" requirement, it's equally valid as a starting point.  Shrinking, however, doesn't make the object weaker as it gets lighter: it's still an airplane; it's just really, really light now.

 

 

 

 

[unclevlad]

The argument you're making is the potential problem with TK, but not with STR.

 

Once the TK is, oh, 10 higher than the character's normal STR, his "weightlessness" is overwhelmingly defined by however much TK he buys, simply because whatever he can lift with STR is 1/4 of what his TK limit is.  And obviously, the larger the gap, the more this is the case.  Now, to be sure, if you're not investing in STR, it's not a problem.  

 

Reducing the mass by 1/8 is the same as increasing *base* STR...not TK...by 15, because it increases your lift by a factor of 8.  

 

3 levels of shrinking divides by 512, or for convenience, 500...so 13 tons --> 26 kilos.  Lifting 13 tons means a 46 STR;  26 kilos, it depends on whether you use the basic lifting table or the expanded one, that allows STR below 0.  But even on the basic STR chart, it's a 3.  

 

And trying to lift the destroyer...that's listed as STR 90, so you'd need at least 5 levels of shrinking, probably, unless you bought significant STR.

 

There's no real difference in effect, as long as you recognize the equivalence...and recognize just how much you're getting for each level.  To be sure...I was thinking it might be way too cheap, but...the +STR, only to lift, gets a fairly nice-sized limitation so it might be decently cheap.

 

 

 

 

[Duke Bushido]

It's a hair past one AM here; I don't trust myself to respond (or even have read) coherently-- did the fireworks show at the beach, followed by some exhausting swimming.  I will have to check back in on this after some sleep.

 

Thanks for the conversation, though!

 

 

 

[LoneWolf]

Shrinking UAA is not going to be all that cheap.  Don’t forget when used on an object it only affects something with a mass of 100 KG.  To buy that up to the point it affects large objects will be expensive, and you will also need to add usable at range as well.  To get it where something around 100 metric tons could be lifted by an ordinary person (15 STR or so) will be about 94 active points. For 90 points you can get 60 STR TK which will allow you to lift the full 100 metric tons.  

 

The other benefit to using TK is that it can easily be reversed to increase the gravity by using the TK to hold something.  If you use shrinking UAA to do that you would need to purchase density increase UAA with the same increased mass advantage.  Having the same power be able to do what would take two other powers is basically like getting the power for half off after limitations are applied.  Even if the power is put into a multipower you are still cutting the cost in half.  

 

Telekinesis also has the benefit of speeding up game play.  Since you know how much lift you have you can quickly figure out if you can affect something.  With shrinking (and density increase) you have the added step of calculating the objects final weight.  Not that it will be that hard but who has not had a situation where at the end of a long session you are so tired that trying to calculate out something seems to become a lot more difficult. 
 

[Duke Bushido]

 

 

If it's not too much trouble, I need a little help here.

 

Yes; even as I typed that I could see possible misinterpretations, so let me take a moment to remind you and anyone following along that I don't "do" sarcasm: it _never_ helps, and results in damaged relationships all around.  it's just a stupid thing to do (my own opinion, of course) and a poor substitute for wit.  So what I am saying very much is "I looked for something but could not find it; you demonstrate evidence that you know where it is; would you be kind enough to take a moment to point it out to me," and there is absolutely nothing hidden between the words or lines or in the backs of my eyes. 

 

 

So here is where I am:

 

6 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

Shrinking UAA is not going to be all that cheap.

 

I started to run some numbers, then got hit with that "No, Duke; everyone else is using newer editions that you are.  Look in the new books first."  I have never made a secret that I don't care for or use the Long editions (though I do enjoy the pun ).  I bought them, of course, because I want the company to continue to exist, even though I suspect that, given our ages and our relative healths, any new editions will continue to be Long editions until well after my death.  So be it.  I like the supplementary Long stuff, to be sure, just not the rules sets.  That's not this discussion, and offered only as an explanation for my actions earlier this afternoon:

 

I grabbed the 6e books-- no; okay.  I grabbed Book 1, fully believing that everything related to Powers and their approved uses and their newly-detailed mandatory interactions with one another would be contained entirely in that book.  I poured through the index and checked every reference to Shrinking.  Still not finding what I was looking for, I opened up the e-book version and did the keyword thing, and still didn't find anything.

 

I _did_ find that Shrinking, assuming the use of this edition, is going to actually be cheaper than I thought, because it appears the price has dropped from 10 points per "unit of Shrinking" to 6 points.  As I've mentioned elsewhere, many times, I've only read these books once, and I knew I wasn't going to do it again except as reference material for discussions like this one.  At any rate, I had forgotten the price reduction to Shrinking, and was pleasantly surprised to be reminded of it.

 

This comment though:

 

 

6 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

Don’t forget when used on an object it only affects something with a mass of 100 KG.  

 

That's what I was trying to find.  I took you at your word, of course, and assumed it would be in there somewhere, in spite of not being able to justify it against some of the core conceits of HERO, primarily, I can just decide that my character is a 600 pound alien cyborg and his Black Hole belt gives him the ability to compress himself into a super-tiny version of himself.  I know there is nothing in 4e back that would make him have to pay extra to use his Shrinking for his two hundred-seventy-odd kilograms of personal mass, but then I thought to myself "Wait.  The Long Editions added all kinds of mandatory "power X must do this in the presence of Power Y" and other such "only this way is correct" rules, so I figured I'd better check the newest rules set on the assumption that in light of your statement, you were using a rules set with which I am less familiar.

 

Unfortunately, I am unable to find it.   I started to dust off Book 2, but then I got thinking about the multitude of books in which it could be buried, and the amount of time I have available to track this down, and decided that, if you don't mind, it would be far more practical to ask someone who knows just where I can find this.  Is it in an APG, or is it in one of the genre supplements?   It's important, as if this is a set rule in newer editions, I am going to have to make allowances in future discussions.

 

I apologize in advance for any time you have to devote to looking up the specific reference, and thank you for the help.

 

 

 

6 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

To buy that up to the point it affects large objects will be expensive, and you will also need to add usable at range as well.

 

Yes; I had mentioned both Range and even the possible mandate of AoE, if the GM decided it was required to use against large objects.  I wouldn't, personally, but I'm not the GM.  Still, even before determining any sort of value for the Limitation "only to reduce weight," we have the following:

 

Shrinking, 18 pts.  UAA (+1.25) Range (+1/2).  We have a total Advantage cost of +1.75.  Yes, it's a lot.  On 18 points, we have a final cost of something like 33 pts, without applying any Limitations.  We could spend 33 pts on TK which would yield a TK of STR 22.  We could completely negate any weight of not quite 600 KG (yielding a really helpful number of "not quite 1,320 pounds"    ).  The effect of three levels of Shrinking means that the Character can reduce the weight of _anything_ (assuming he has purchased any additional modifiers the GM may require for the use of this ability at range, on large targets, or what-have-you) down to 1/512 of it's normal weight.  The effect of a STR: 22 Telekinesis means he can get this same effect on anything weighing up to 601 Kilograms.  Certainly he can continue to deduct 600 KG from any object, even those weighing tens of thousands of kilograms, but it's not going to be too terribly long (assuming a non-"cosmic level" game, of course) where the effect of his power is essentially negligible.  If Reducto Man has this TK ability to remove up to 600 KG worth of gravity's pull against any object, and on top of that has a person STR 50--

 

well, first we have to agree on just how _that_ works.  Do the STRs _combine_?  Is his TK bought as STR, or _+STR_?  Does he simply remove 600 KG from an object, and the 50 STR is applied to what's left?  This works out to him being able to lift an object that originally weighed 25 tons and 600 spare KG.  If he can combine the two STR values (which I think is a bit dubious, since I don't _think_ Characters can perform teamwork or combined attacks with themselves, but again: I am _not_ familiar with the Long editions and could very well be wrong), then he gets a total of 75 STR, meaning he can now lift an object that originally weighed up to 800 tons.  Big difference, to be sure, but again-- from the newer books, I don't know which is correct.

 

Either way, though, assuming the Character has only STR 20 and his "feats of STR" are performed by actually reducing the weight of the object via Shrinking, he can lift an object weighting up to 204,800 KG.

 

I would reduce that further, but I have always been loathe to do so for _one_ reason:

 

What tons?  Six editions, seven if you count the revision of 5 as a new work, and eight if you count that an New Millennium, and not _ONCE_ has it ever been stated if we are talking metric tons or not.  NOT ONCE!  Granted, from a human perspective, the idea of lifting eighty-thousand tons is pretty meaningless anyway, so it doesn't really matter beyond how many dice you can hit someone with, but seriously, this has always felt like a massive omission to me.  As always, if anyone can point to me a citation where this has been defined, I would very much appreciate it.  Please; if the only persuasion is the "logical progression" that we move from KG to tons, so it must be metric, do not bother telling me; I am going to reply by asking how that logical progression leads to representing two meters (or one, 6e and presumably beyond) with inches.  Yes; hex paper is printed in inches.  I am also pretty sure it can be printed in cm, dm, (does anyone actually use the decimeter as a unit of measure?  Anyone?), m, and probably even km if the demand was there.

 

If this Character had the same 50 STR and the Shrinking shtick, he could lift 12,800 HERO-System tons.

 

 

The difference, ultimately, is one of progression.  One of these methods will peter out very, very quickly, while the other gets _more effective_ as it is used.  I am reminded of one of the very few comic book characters with which I am passingly familiar (mostly owing to a conversation on this very board a couple of decades ago that piqued my interest enough to look up the character): Molecule Man.  Apparently he was conceived and even used as a fairly minor character, right up until writers kept seeing more and more potential for him, and thirty years later, he is the most powerful character in the universe (except, if the fans are to be believed, for the possible exception Squirrel Girl.)

 

So which is correct?  I would put forward the idea that it's more about what sort of thing you are trying to model, and what sort of game you are preparing to play.