Regenerating other stats than Body

[Christopher R Taylor]

I asked this in the "Ask Steve" board, but Simon suggested I take it down here instead since its not an official part of the printed rules:

 

In the Advanced Player Guide I, they mention the option of regenerating characteristics other than Body, which makes sense and is a useful concept.  However, there is no real details on how to do this.  There are three possibilities that I can think of that might be used:

 

1) You regenerate 1 (insert characteristic here) per time interim; 1 Body, 1 END, 1 Speed, etc

2) You regenerate 1 character point of (insert characteristic here) per time interim; 1 Body, 5 END, 1/10th Speed, etc

3) You regenerate your recovery worth of (insert characteristic here) per time interim (based on the rules on how to use regeneration to recover drained or otherwise lost powers).  

 

1 Is the simplest and seems the most balanced one in terms of controlling effects in the game

2 Is the most logical and rules-consistent concept, but can be broken with characteristics like END or STN

3 Is the least plausible, since you only get 1 Body per interim, so why get more of other stats?

 

How does it work?

 

Simon suggested this answer: 

 

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• For Characteristics not normally affected by REC, you Regenerate 1 characteristic point every time interval (your second option) -- this keeps the cost structure consistent with the standard BODY Regeneration
• For Characteristics that reduced through normal use (END and STUN), you Regenerate your REC to the Characteristic's maximum every time interval (your third option) -- this changes Regeneration slightly for these Characteristics so that it is not replacing your normal REC with something cheaper (it is not recovering END or STUN that are used/reduced) - it is only used to Regenerate "lost" values in these Characteristics (i.e. lost maximum through Drain, etc.). 

 

I liked that a lot when I read it, and it made sense, but then I started to think.  Body is normally recovered with your REC score as well, its just really slow (you get REC in Body per month, or per week with proper medical care.  But Regeneration only gives you back 1 point per time increment.

That makes me think that its 1 character point back per time increment.  This might or might not be better than your recovery for something like END, since its 1/5th a character point per point of END.  Note: normal "defensive powers" adjustment rules do not apply to Regeneration (or, if they do, then Regeneration doubles its effect so you get the full 1 Body per time increment).

[LoneWolf]

I would just have regeneration restore 1 character point worth of the stat.  At 16 points to regenerate 5 END, or 2 STUN per turn it is never going to be cheaper than REC.  For STUN the only thing it really does is allow you to recover faster when you are at the point you are not getting your normal post 12 recoveries. If you are using long term END rules regeneration offers a way to offset that, but again is not cheap.

 

For the same cost as 1 point of regeneration per turn you could buy +16 to recovery.  Which would also give you back END and some body at a slower rate.  Regeneration is not a cheap way to get back STUN and END, it’s actually quite expensive.  I could see it being useful for characters that are supposed to be impossible to keep down, but other than that not really that effective. 
 

[Christopher R Taylor]

The only real advantage is when you buy it at the "faster than the official rules" optional level in APG I for 18 points (once per phase) which would basically be a free recovery every phase.

 

Although its probably worth considering a halfway stage, like "once per two phases" at 18 and once per phase at 20, just to push the price up a little

[unclevlad]

I'd rather keep it as simple as possible, but it can't be because of the enormous variations in play here.  On the one hand you have REC;  on the other extreme, SPD and DCV, and to a lesser degree OCV.

 

My first take is to ignore that suggestion.  My second one:  allow it against a very limited subset.  First point to note:  within the system, the only way to damage a characteristic, such that it needs to be regenerated, is with a Drain or Transform.  Gee, guess what...the adjustment powers versus defense powers and characteristics rule kicks in for them...so shouldn't it also apply to this Regen?  It doesn't apply to BODY because BODY is subject to reduction from other means.  Or, perhaps not, simply because this feels like an enormously narrow, almost pointless defense, unless you allow not only the "Regen can be used on other Characteristics" but also, by extension, Variable Effect as per Aid.

 

But...no.  The more I think about it, the less and less I think it's a good idea to incorporate the APG point with 6E Regen, because the cost structure and effect are completely tailored to the very specific issue of BODY, and BODY damage, and look at some other structure...like perhaps Boost.

[Killer Shrike]

I've allowed Regen Stun using the APG option for many years; feels pretty good and intuitive in play. Also Regen per Segment, which is quite strong but allows for certain cinematic / genre tropes which per Turn never quite jived with for my preferences. Things like:

 

30	Lycanthropic Regeneration :  Regeneration (2 BODY per Segment), Can Heal Limbs, Per Segment (APG), STUN Also (APG) (+1/2) (61 Active Points); Does Not Work On Some Damage ([Common attack]; Damage From Silver; -3/4), Perceivable (by Supernatural Awareness; -1/4)

[Christopher R Taylor]

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 Gee, guess what...the adjustment powers versus defense powers and characteristics rule kicks in for them...so shouldn't it also apply to this Regen?

 

Yeah but those only apply against attack powers, not healing or Aid

[LoneWolf]

Regeneration only covers a single stat so in order for it to replace REC it needs to cover at least two stats so that raises the cost to 27 points.  If the character plans to sell back his REC he will need to include BODY as well or he will not heal.  The 5 points of END per phase will probably cover the majority of the characters END.  2 STUN per phase is a little low but not horrible. 

 

For 28 points I can buy a 30 recovery.  That means the character can recover 30 END and 30 STUN per turn just form a post 12 recovery.  Assuming a 6 SPD that works out to getting 5 END and STUN, compared to the 5 END and 2 STUN from regeneration.  The recovery also allows me to take a recovery in addition to the post 12. The character the higher REC will recover faster than the regenerator unless they are into GM’s option.  

 

If you try to buy up the regeneration it becomes even less cost effective.  Going up to an extra level on the regeneration would give the character 10 END and 4 STUN per phase.  At this point he can pretty much ignore normal END usage and his STUN recovery is on par with the character with 30 REC.  But he spent an extra 27 points.  Instead of putting that into recovery I will just put it directly to STUN and END.  So now I have an additional    60 END and 30 STUN.  The Extra END means I can push every phase for a full turn, the extra STUN makes me a lot harder to take down.

 

Regeneration as recovery is not cost effective.  
 

[Ockham's Spoon]

I really only see this coming into play for characters affected by long-term Drains and possibly the odd Transform (although usually those will be covered by BODY recovery).  If you use Impairment rules it might crop up as well, but again, once the BODY is healed the impairment should go away.  But if you just want to recover quickly from an Enfeeblement ray that sapped your STR or a poison that is depressing your CON, I think using the Regeneration per character point would work just fine.  I would even consider letting a character with Regen buy the Expanded Characteristics Advantage from the Adjustment powers on their Regen, so +1/2 advantage for each additional characteristic they wanted to cover past BODY.

[Christopher R Taylor]

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Regeneration only covers a single stat so in order for it to replace REC it needs to cover at least two stats so that raises the cost to 27 points.

 

Again, unless you allow the "Regeneration per Phase" rate which then makes it actually better than Recovery, since you get those points every phase without taking a recovery to get them.  No matter how high you buy your recovery, you only get it once a turn unless you take a full phase at ½ DCV without being interrupted. Plus, Regeneration could cover stats like CON or PD, which don't normally recover.

 

The kind of build I have in mind is like Shrike's Lycanthropic (or Troll) regeneration, or an effect that helps you get back mana a bit quicker for wizards.

 

The only place that really makes me hesitate is END costing so little.  It is, in my opinion, too cheap in 6th edition.

[Grailknight]

Got to agree with Simon and Ockham's spoon here. This should only affect Characteristics that have been reduced by a long term Drain or the BODY of a Transform. It should not be used in any form to speed the regaining of STUN and END lost in normal use. Buy more Recovery.

 

So if that Poison Drain has sapped your STUN down to 12 from 40 and you only get it back at 5 points per day, then this can be used to raise your maximum back at a higher rate(not your current, use Recovery, it's what it's for). 

 

This just gives Regeneration more scope in building a character that recovers from all forms of damage faster than normal.

 

 

[unclevlad]

5 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

Again, unless you allow the "Regeneration per Phase" rate which then makes it actually better than Recovery, since you get those points every phase without taking a recovery to get them.  No matter how high you buy your recovery, you only get it once a turn unless you take a full phase at ½ DCV without being interrupted. Plus, Regeneration could cover stats like CON or PD, which don't normally recover.

 

No, but they also don't *need* to.  They're only impacted by a Drain.  Drain 3d6, returns 5 points/hour.  Your per-phase Regen blows it out of the water;  the longer the duration, the worse it is.  Plus, the cost structure for improving the speed of Regen is *ridiculously* too cheap.  Again...it's because BODY can be reduced in *many* different ways.  

 

22 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

Yeah but those only apply against attack powers, not healing or Aid

 

The 1/2 effect targeting a defense power applies to ALL Adjustment powers, not attack powers.  Technically, Regen isn't an adjustment power, but if it can be extended to all the defense-related characteristics, that should be reconsidered.  It's not an issue for BODY because a Drain BODY is NOT a common mechanism;  whereas, it is the ONLY mechanism to lower DEX, CON, etc.  

 

You might not like abusive builds...but the sheer fact that Regen <one stat> is going to only be effective against a Drain <that stat> means it's bloody freaking NARROW.  How about just buying Power Defense...no limitations, or how about "only versus Characteristic Drains"?  Even 10 points of Power Def will blunt most Drains sharply;  that's -3d6, pretty much.  And it's to any form of Drain...not to a few specific Characteristics.  So that said...there's *enormous* incentive to buy this with Variable Effect (any Characteristic).

 

Because, flat out, I would NEVER buy Regen CON or Regen STR.  Never.  At any rate.  It simply won't apply often enough to justify the cost.  IF I have to worry about it...then I'm gonna go Power Def, or if I really have to worry about Damage over Time Drain with Defense only applies once...then I'd go with Regen with Variable Effect of Any Characteristic.  It's CHEAP!!! at that price because I get the core Regen to BODY in the process.  

 

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

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The 1/2 effect targeting a defense power applies to ALL Adjustment powers, not attack powers.

 

Aid yes you are right, Healing no:

 

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To balance the usefulness of defenses in the HERO System, the effect of any Adjustment Power that increases or decreases any of the following is halved: any Defense Power; the Characteristics CON, DCV, DMCV, PD, ED, REC, END, BODY, and STUN; and any other ability the GM designates as primarily defensive in nature.

 

Healing does not increase or decrease stats, it only restores them.  As regeneration is a Special Power, not an Adjustment Power, that wouldn't apply in any case.

 

But buying 1 character point of END recovered per phase (5 END) is only a problem, as I said, because END is too cheap in 6th edition.  If it were 3 END per 1 point or even 2, the concept wouldn't be that big an issue.

[Hugh Neilson]

First off, from the 6e Errata:

 

"Page 232 — In the example, it says Brother Willem’s spell Heals 4 BODY; it should say that he Heals 2 BODY, since BODY counts as a “defense” and Adjustment Powers’ effect on it are thus halved."

 

The examples on page 232 are not consistent - some halve the dice, others do not.

 

Second, the reason END was made a "defensive power" in 6e is because the price reduction needed to make it a viable alternative to Reduced END made it too cheap to adjust.  Halving the effect of "Regen - Other Stuff" on defensive powers should alleviate the concern.  Regenerating  END per segment (same cost as  BOD per segment) is pretty rapid, but it's also a  36 point investment, like 2 BOD per segment.  Personally, I would likely disallow Regen STUN and Regen END, or restrict it to actual drains.  Should Regen END Battery be allowed?  Even 1 END per segment equates to 12 REC for that reserve.  18 points for 5/segment = 60 per turn is excessive.  Buy 60 REC and agree with your GM that it's 5 per segment.

 

Regen is cheaper because it targets stats that are typically not reduced nearly as often, or as much.

 

As an alternative, consider the cost of Healing.  1d6 Healing of END will average 3.5 CP x 5 END per CP = 17.5 END per use, or 15 with Standar Effect.  Making that decreased re-use per phase would be +1 3/4.  Constant + 0 END makes it +2 3/4, so a mere 37 CP to regenerate 15 END per phase.  Self Only should get it down to 25, even as a -1/2 limitation, 18 if we think it's -1.  If I can regenerate 5 per segment, that's roughly the same at 4 SPD, for the same price if you think self only is -1. 

[unclevlad]

23 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

As an alternative, consider the cost of Healing.  1d6 Healing of END will average 3.5 CP x 5 END per CP = 17.5 END per use, or 15 with Standar Effect.  Making that decreased re-use per phase would be +1 3/4.  Constant + 0 END makes it +2 3/4, so a mere 37 CP to regenerate 15 END per phase.  Self Only should get it down to 25, even as a -1/2 limitation, 18 if we think it's -1.  If I can regenerate 5 per segment, that's roughly the same at 4 SPD, for the same price if you think self only is -1. 

 

END is a defensive power.  Half effect, so standard effect would be 1 CP.  5 END.  That 1/2 effect rises up and catches us out a lot.

 

That said, barely tweak to 1d6+1;  now it's 4.5, half gets me 2 points.  Active cost jumps to 49, but Self Only makes it 24.  Worse, perhaps...and again, y'all might read this as abuse but once you've gone this far, why NOT go the step further and apply Variable Effect?  Fine, make it the physical stats...STR, CON, DEX, END, and STUN, let's say...as a reasonable theme.  (Not BODY, that's the province of Regen.)  

 

I agree that healing the END is obscene, and could very easily become a net cost *reduction* as you eliminate every Reduced END...and for that matter, potentially even add some Costs END limitations.  A super quick and dirty comparison...the 1d6+1 Healing, self only (at -1 as listed), is 24 points.  So let's go with Flight 20" and Resistant Protection 10/10.

 

Base cost:  20 + 30 = 50.

Trying to conserve END:  1/2 END on Flight.  25 + 30 = 55.

Not caring:  Costs half END on the Resistant Prot.  20 + 24 = 44.  

 

So right there without even trying hard, we recover 11 of the 24, and show it's quite feasible to get the rest.

 

But if the healing is limited to countering Drains...this has possibilities, but why not buy Power Def?  The theoretical arguments aside, does it pass the purely practical of...Just Buy Power Def.

[dmjalund]

let's make EVERYTHING a defense power!

[Hugh Neilson]

8 hours ago, unclevlad said:

END is a defensive power.  Half effect, so standard effect would be 1 CP.  5 END.  That 1/2 effect rises up and catches us out a lot.

I thought about that, but didn't say it (at least not clearly).  END and BOD are both defensive powers.  1 point BOD regen is equivalent to 1 CP Regen of a defensive power, which is 5 END.  The question is not (or at least should not be) whether  the Regen rate of END  or other defensive powers should be half the rate of BOD, but whether non-defensive powers and abilities should regenerate faster than BOD or other defensive powers.

 

 

8 hours ago, unclevlad said:

I agree that healing the END is obscene, and could very easily become a net cost *reduction* as you eliminate every Reduced END...and for that matter, potentially even add some Costs END limitations.  A super quick and dirty comparison...the 1d6+1 Healing, self only (at -1 as listed), is 24 points.  So let's go with Flight 20" and Resistant Protection 10/10.

 

1d6 Healing, reduced reuse rate per phase (+1 3/4), 0 END (+1/2) Constant (+1/2) 37 AP Self Only (-1) 18 real

 

OH, LOOK (yes, I am just having this epiphany...) that's the APG cost of 1 BOD regeneration per phase, so one point of a defensive ability per phase, because the standard effect of 3 CP halved has been rounded down to 1.5.  3 BOD regen per phase should cost 36, not 54, points!

 

So 18 points should similarly regenerate 5 END per phase.

 

hmmmm...it seems like END only REC should be a -1 limitation.  I lose STUN REC (which I use a lot) and BOD REC (which I don't use so much).  That's cheaper than END Reserve REC, but it's subject to being slowed down when I am KOd.  If I have a 4/5/6 SPD character, I'd need 20/25/30 REC, END Only, to recover the equivalent of 5 END per phase (and END reserve even suggest parsing it out per phase for a similar effect).  So that's 10/13/15 CP if we assume "END only is -1, or 14/18/20 points if we pay 2 CP for 3 REC (or fraction of 3) like an END reserve.

 

I am starting to feel like, although he does not explicitly explain the computations, Steve is doing the math in the background when he prices these things out.  That really should not surprise me.

 

I definitely agree it can be offset by purchasing less reduced END.  Viewed from another angle, however, reduced END offsets the otherwise necessary cost of higher END and REC.  Under the old pricing model, buying up END and REC to cover a 60 AP attack, 40 meters of flight and 10/10 Resistant Protection, Costs END was ridiculously expensive.  We'd be spending 10 -12 END per phase, so a 5 SPD character would need what, 50 REC?  Half END on each will be 15 + 10 + 10 (not putting Costs END on RP at all) and droops me  to no more than 3 + 2 END per phase.  I could only get about 18 REC for that, even if I didn't need to buy more END as well.

 

Now, investing 35 points in +35 REC is actually a feasible alternative.

 

But "Heal END Every Phase" is a ridiculously low-priced option.   I see two easy fixes.  Don't allow it for END or STUN.  Or max Reduced Re-Use period at "per turn", which still allows D&D style wound curing, but neutralizes  the abuse of per phase (or per segment) END or STUN recovery.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Again, Regeneration is not an adjustment power and is not subject to the "adjustment powers have half effect on defensive powers" rule.  And while the examples and errata is inconsistent, the rules do state pretty clearly that the halving only affects powers that raise or lower stats (Aid or Drain, in other words) and healing does not do so.  However given that 6th edition excessively reduced the cost of END, I could live with that stat being halved in effectiveness as a general rule for Regen and Healing.

 

Another option would be to increase the cost of regeneration at any rate faster than once per turn.  For example, make it 20 for once per phase and 25 for once per segment (or just don't allow once per segment as a rule: that's too quick for game balance to allow).

[Grailknight]

10 hours ago, unclevlad said:

 

But if the healing is limited to countering Drains...this has possibilities, but why not buy Power Def?  The theoretical arguments aside, does it pass the purely practical of...Just Buy Power Def.

 

If what you are building  is a character that is resistant to being affected by Drains, then Power Defense is the way to go. It does what it is designed to do well(DoT builds not withstanding) and in combination with Damage Negation and/or Damage Reduction will protect you in almost any combat situation..

 

If what you are looking for is a character that still takes damage from Drains in combat, but recovers from all forms of damage faster than normal but not in a combat time frame, then this option allows that. Wounds and poisons that would normally take days or weeks to heal can be overcome in hours or overnight. 

 

It comes down to character concept.  Regeneration used this way is not something that affects combat, but it simulates the ability to bounce back overnight from most anything(and battle villains who thought you were incapacitated and thus didn't plan for you) quite well and that's a pretty standard genre trope. 

 

As far as costing goes, I would make Regeneration used in this way an Adjustment Power and a Special Power. That way it could still use the standard time chart but with the caveat that just like all other Adjustment Powers, the first improvement on the chart is a +1 not +1/4.

[Christopher R Taylor]

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As far as costing goes, I would make Regeneration used in this way an Adjustment Power and a Special Power. That way it could still use the standard time chart but with the caveat that just like all other Adjustment Powers, the first improvement on the chart is a +1 not +1/4.

 

Its an interesting approach, although the first stage of Regeneration is 2 points for "Regenerate 1 body per week" (Moving it up from the default of 1/month)

[Steve]

Just as a side note, there is also the issue of Long Term Endurance to consider in campaigns that use it when looking at END Regeneration.

[unclevlad]

6 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

I thought about that, but didn't say it (at least not clearly).  END and BOD are both defensive powers.  1 point BOD regen is equivalent to 1 CP Regen of a defensive power, which is 5 END.  The question is not (or at least should not be) whether  the Regen rate of END  or other defensive powers should be half the rate of BOD, but whether non-defensive powers and abilities should regenerate faster than BOD or other defensive powers.

 

The 2 function differently.  BOD is not a consumable;  END is.  The rate of that consumption is completely under the player's control...and worse, can strongly impact the costs for many other powers by making Reduced END largely pointless.  (Just came to mind...2, even 3 shot autofire?  As long as it's intended as an occasional choice, I'm not gonna pay the major premium for Reduced END.  Which makes effective Autofire VERY cheap.)  The BODY recovery rate has no such impact.

The point about not allowing Heal to happen more than once per turn might be fine, but then, what's the difference between Heal END, per turn, and REC?  REC is better. I'd have to be Heal END and STUN, once per turn.  We're talking...+3 advantage, right?  Off the top of my head.  So that's 40 active.  REC will be cheaper.

 

4 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Again, Regeneration is not an adjustment power and is not subject to the "adjustment powers have half effect on defensive powers" rule.  And while the examples and errata is inconsistent, the rules do state pretty clearly that the halving only affects powers that raise or lower stats (Aid or Drain, in other words) and healing does not do so.  However given that 6th edition excessively reduced the cost of END, I could live with that stat being halved in effectiveness as a general rule for Regen and Healing.

 

Regen as written NOW, is not an adjustment power.  If you can apply it to so many different abilities, it acts like one.  Nothing says a Special Power can't also be in some other broad category, like Adjustment Power.  A special power is one where the applicability is usually narrow...got a version of a character where IR, UV, and night vision all made sense.  If I can slap these into a multipower, I would.  Flash Def, Mental Def, and Power Def are all Defense powers...and Special Powers.

 

I agree that the examples are inconsistent but the primary source is 6E1 page 135, and there is no ambiguity.  Healing is an adjustment power;  BODY is a defensive ability.  Done.  The examples that contradict are wrong unless and until that text is changed.

 

And the cost of Regen may well be based on 1d6 Healing of a defense power, Constant, 0 END, Persistent, Self Only, increased re-use rate.  Regen got shifted to a completely separate costing structure for one major reason:  to force the unit to something completely separate.  Because average roll, and thus standard effect, of 1d6+1 is 4, or 2 against a defensive ability.  Ergo, it'd be double the effectiveness...for 1/3 more.  2d6 would give 7 standard, --> 3;  2d6+1 would give 8, --> 4.  Regen was given a separate unit of effect to avoid this.

 

This is an issue, tho, for comparing constant Healing to Regen.

2 hours ago, Steve said:

Just as a side note, there is also the issue of Long Term Endurance to consider in campaigns that use it when looking at END Regeneration.

 

For the most part, it eliminates the rule.  If I have 5 END healed every phase, my net END expenditure per turn is often going to be 0, is it not?  Even on the presumption that if I buy 5 END every phase via healing, I'll probably buy little or no additional REC.  (Especially in 5E with figured characteristics.)  The wording on 6E2 132 doesn't anticipate this scenario, I don't think, but the stronger interpretation to me is, the END that's healed would NOT count towards the total END expended per turn.

 

EDIT:  just realized something, triggered belatedly by the "you wouldn't purchase more REC."  Well...not quite true, as REC is still needed for STUN.  OK, well, that simply screams buying the the Regen or Healing to apply to END and STUN...or, buying REC with that "only to recover STUN" abusive limitation.  

 

The cost savings from this stem from the fact, I realized, that not only do I not buy Reduced END...I don't buy additional END or normal REC.  The obvious case is the Healing, 1d6+1, expanded effect (STUN and END) where I don't have to buy up STUN that much.  (Probably still some, tho.)  2 CP applied to STUN is 4 per phase;  that's probably not enough.  Then again, it might just say, OK, buy up somewhat *more* STUN and use your other defensive capabilities to keep things manageable.  There wouldn't be a one-size-fits-all answer but by and large, I think juggling the numbers in any specific case wouldn't be very hard.  And you'd often save a ton of points.

[archer]

On 7/13/2021 at 12:41 PM, Christopher R Taylor said:

2) You regenerate 1 character point of (insert characteristic here) per time interim; 1 Body, 5 END, 1/10th Speed, etc

 

I would suggest this except stipulate that Regeneration never gives you additional END or STUN since those two are already cheap and already have absurdly fast recovery rates compared to other stats. That would stop any abuse from regenerating per phase.

 

Have the player lay out the order in which stats will Regenerate if Drained such as STR first, CON second, BODY third, etc. when he buys the power. If he wants that order to be variable, he should buy a Variable Effect advantage.

 

Regeneration of limbs will only happen while BODY is being Regenerated or while at full BODY as the case may be.

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

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I agree that the examples are inconsistent but the primary source is 6E1 page 135, and there is no ambiguity.  Healing is an adjustment power;  BODY is a defensive ability.  Done.  The examples that contradict are wrong unless and until that text is changed.

 

Except that section says "check below for more information" which below has the text I quoted about raising or lowering powers.  Its in the base rules, in the part of the book you are referring to, a clarification of that rule regarding what is and is not affected by this rule.

 

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what's the difference between Heal END, per turn, and REC?

 

You can heal others is the main difference (and heal body parts that have been destroyed).  If you're referring to Regeneration, then REC is usually better but Regeneration is in addition to recovery.  It lets you stack.

 

Its fine to just declare Regen only working on BODY because it was merely meant as a way to simulate certain abilities in source material (like Wolverine regenerating) and give a way to get body back faster than the very slow healing in the rules.  Later, as Healing was added and Destroy (then Drain with longer recovery rates), then the dynamic shifted and Regeneration's purpose and concept shifted.

[unclevlad]

57 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

You can heal others is the main difference (and heal body parts that have been destroyed).  If you're referring to Regeneration, then REC is usually better but Regeneration is in addition to recovery.  It lets you stack.

 

This discussion is presuming it's Self Only healing.  And the Healing is specifically only to END.  Me:

 

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The point about not allowing Heal to happen more than once per turn might be fine, but then, what's the difference between Heal END, per turn, and REC?  REC is better. I'd have to be Heal END and STUN, once per turn.  We're talking...+3 advantage, right?  Off the top of my head.  So that's 40 active.  REC will be cheaper.

 

 

So when SPECIFICALLY discussing Heal END, self only, limited to per turn...what is the functional difference between this and buying more REC?  If being allowed to buy it to per phase is abusive, limiting it to per turn is useful only versus relatively longer-duration Drains, compared to just buying REC.

 

On the other point and "check other rules"..."Healing doesn't raise or lower stats"...yes it does.  It raises them.  The fact that it has a limit doesn't change that.  OK, while I don't agree there's ambiguity when comparing 135 to 141...if Healing is expected to be separate from this rule, MAKE IT EXPLICIT, and not based on a potentially very self-serving, hair-splitting interpretation of what "increase" means.  If we really have to parse the rules language to this degree then the rules are badly written.  

 

OTOH...the issues are tied to 2 things.  #1:  going faster than once per Turn.  For one thing, there's a massive variation in impact...because it's now based on a character's SPD.  Note that Damage Over Time *doesn't* use phases.  For the other, it ignores the in-game impact.  The difference between per minute and per 5 minutes is marginal at best.  The difference between per turn and per minute is...well, generally no more than mild, at least in a supers game where speeds of 4+ are in play...there's too many actions.  Just sticking to BODY Regen...when SPD 2 is the norm, getting back 1 BODY per turn is...pretty useful.  When SPD 5 is?  Not so much.  But NOW...when it's per phase...5 BODY Regen per turn is *quite* a bit, and clearly hugely more than the 1 BODY per turn.  Note that this applies to both Healing and Regen.  #2 applies to Healing.  With Regen, the unit is the characteristic;  the interpretation is actually "standard effect" but rounded DOWN for a change.  1d6 Healing...standard effect is 3.  Hey...half of 3 is 1.5, and the metarule is to round in the character's favor...so round UP.  But it's not done that way.  And even if you take the pessimistic halving interpretation, we get that 1d6+1 --> 4 points, and that clearly means 2 CP, ergo 2 BODY, 10 END, or 4 STUN.  That's clearly a massive jump.  Regen dispenses with that completely.

 

All things considered...if you want to expand Regen to other characteristics...

 

1.  Switch to a unit of d6's...maybe allowing half dice, but NOT allowing +1 or d6-1.

2.  No faster than per turn, without a SERIOUS increase.  Use the Regen per turn as the base, and making it per phase is at least a +1.  (Note that it's STILL cheaper than buying 2 BODY Regen per turn.)  

3.  Straight d6 character points, not characteristic points, with the halving rule.  Without it, a 1d6 CON Regen would almost completely wipe out the max effect of -12 CON (returning every 5 minutes) in 3 turns.

4.  The points can't be used to regain END spent.  Anything else...I think is OK, even STUN.  

5.  If Variable Effect is applied, then the Regen ONLY counters Drain or equivalent losses.

6.  And, yes, this becomes an Adjustment Power, as well as a Special Power.

[Christopher R Taylor]

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On the other point and "check other rules"..."Healing doesn't raise or lower stats"...yes it does.  It raises them.

Steve could answer this but were we not discussing this context I think you'd agree that "restoring stats to their proper level" is in no way "raising" stats.   Raising is Aid.  Restoring is Heal.  Not really any reasonable way to deny that unless you just really don't want people to heal as much as they roll on the dice because you figure it will break the game, somehow.