Thoughts on this sorta multipower that is not a multipower

[Beast]

Body magical advantages

   Magical Face Hardened(4 pts):  Hardened (+1/4) for up to 45 Active Points of Resistant defenses (11 Active Points); Increased Endurance Cost (x5 END; -1*), Lockout (-1/2), Unified Power (-1/4), Costs Endurance (Only Costs END to Activate; -1/4)

   Magical defenses(pts):  (Total: 24 Active Cost, 6 Real Cost) +12 Mental Defense (12 points total) (12 Active Points); Increased Endurance Cost (x7 END; -1 1/2), Lockout (-1/2), Costs Endurance (Only Costs END to Activate; -1/4), Unified Power (-1/4) (Real Cost: 3) <b>plus</b> Power Defense (12 points) (12 Active Points); Increased Endurance Cost (x7 END; -1 1/2), Lockout (-1/2), Costs Endurance (Only Costs END to Activate; -1/4), Unified Power (-1/4) (Real Cost: 3)

   Magical Grip(9pts):  Affects Desolidified Any form of Desolidification (+1/2) for up to 55 Active Points of Strength (27 Active Points); Increased Endurance Cost (x7 END; -1 1/2), Lockout (-1/2), Unified Power (-1/4), Costs Endurance (Only Costs END to Activate; -1/4*)

   Magical Grip(5pts):  Cannot Be Escaped With Teleportation (+1/4) for up to 55 Active Points of Strength (14 Active Points); Increased Endurance Cost (x7 END; -1 1/2), Lockout (-1/2), Unified Power (-1/4), Costs Endurance (Only Costs END to Activate; -1/4*)

[foolishvictor]

Each power is separate but has the lockout disadvantage.  Do these powers lockout every other power this character has or just the others in this set?

 

The combination of "costs endurance only to activate" and the increased endurance limitation is allowable in 6E but I would not allow it.  Clearly that is something you and/or your GM may feel differently about.

 

Other than that the concept is neat...

[Beast]

yes the lock out the other powers on the list

[steriaca]

I believe Lockout can only be taken on Multipower slots officially. That of course doesn't really mean a thing, as the GM can say "that's an exception" and makes it so.

[Grailknight]

22 minutes ago, steriaca said:

I believe Lockout can only be taken on Multipower slots officially. That of course doesn't really mean a thing, as the GM can say "that's an exception" and makes it so.

 

Lockout can be taken on any Power per CC. Though it's given value is -1/2, the description says it should be adjusted based on how many and what powers are affected.

 

As to the OP, I'd allow it assuming it wasn't pulling from a different END source than the rest of your powers. I can remember several combats in my old campaign where it would be a useful powerset but would have come back to bite you.

[steriaca]

What I know for sure is that it is not a "take once" power complication. You can only take it if you take it on two or more powers.

[dougmacd]

Interesting use of Unified and Lockout to represent a Multipower-like construct.

 

One possible monkey wrench: Naked Advantages cost END, so the Costs Endurance limitation is inappropriate (making the Increased Endurance Cost a lot scarier).

 

Doug

In 6E, they apparently they cost END even when the base power does not (6E1 p314)!

[Beast]

10 hours ago, steriaca said:

I believe Lockout can only be taken on Multipower slots officially. That of course doesn't really mean a thing, as the GM can say "that's an exception" and makes it so.

as 3 of the 4 powers are naked advantages they cannot go into an MP

 

9 hours ago, Grailknight said:

 

Lockout can be taken on any Power per CC. Though it's given value is -1/2, the description says it should be adjusted based on how many and what powers are affected.

 

As to the OP, I'd allow it assuming it wasn't pulling from a different END source than the rest of your powers. I can remember several combats in my old campaign where it would be a useful powerset but would have come back to bite you.

all draw End from the same source

 

5 hours ago, dougmacd said:

Interesting use of Unified and Lockout to represent a Multipower-like construct.

 

One possible monkey wrench: Naked Advantages cost END, so the Costs Endurance limitation is inappropriate (making the Increased Endurance Cost a lot scarier).

 

Doug

In 6E, they apparently they cost END even when the base power does not (6E1 p314)!

pulled the cost end lim and added Constant(as NA they get to now become instant 
redone below(COSTS DID NOT CHANGE

Body magical advantages

     Magical Face Hardened(4 pts):  Hardened (+1/4) for up to 45 Active Points of Resistant defenses, Constant (+1/2) (16 Active Points); Increased Endurance Cost (x7 END; -3*), Lockout (-1/2), Unified Power (-1/4)

     Magical defenses(pts):  (Total: 18 Active Cost, 4 Real Cost) +9 Mental Defense (9 points total) (9 Active Points); Increased Endurance Cost (x7 END; -1 1/2), Lockout (-1/2), Costs Endurance (Only Costs END to Activate; -1/4), Unified Power (-1/4) (Real Cost: 2) <b>plus</b> Power Defense (9 points) (9 Active Points); Increased Endurance Cost (x7 END; -1 1/2), Lockout (-1/2), Costs Endurance (Only Costs END to Activate; -1/4), Unified Power (-1/4) (Real Cost: 2)

     Magical Grip(9pts):  : Affects Desolidified Any form of Desolidification (+1/2) for up to 30 Active Points, Constant (+1/2) (22 Active Points); Increased Endurance Cost (x7 END; -3), Lockout (-1/2), Unified Power (-1/4)

     Magical Grip(5pts):  : Cannot Be Escaped With Teleportation (+1/4) for up to 30 Active Points, Constant (+1/2) (10 Active Points); Increased Endurance Cost (x7 END; -3), Lockout (-1/2), Unified Power (-1/4)

 

[Terminax]

I dunno if I'd be cool with the setup without the full character sheet. It seems overly fussy and gamey to me.

[Beast]

3 hours ago, Terminax said:

I dunno if I'd be cool with the setup without the full character sheet. It seems overly fussy and gamey to me.

Here you go the full character sheet

Nemesis
Anastasia Romanova

VAL    CHA    Cost    Roll    Notes
55    STR    15    20-    HTH Damage 11d6  END [2]
18    DEX    16    13-
30    CON    20    15-
13    INT    3    12-    PER Roll 12-
13    EGO    3    12-
18    PRE    8    13-    PRE Attack: 3 1/2d6
9    OCV    30
6    DCV    15
1    OMCV    -6
3    DMCV    0
6    SPD    40    Phases:  2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12
10    PD    8    10/25 PD (0/15 rPD)
10    ED    8    10/25 ED (0/15 rED)
15    REC    11
50    END    6
13    BODY    3    
60    STUN    20

Movement    Cost    Meters    Notes
RUNNING    0    26m/52m    END [2]

LEAPING    -2    44m    44m forward, 22m upward

TELEPORTATION        10m/20m
TUNNELING        17m/34m

Characteristics Total: 196

Cost    Powers
45    +30 STR, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (45 Active Points) - END=
45    Resistant Protection (15 PD/15 ED) - END=0
36    Life Support  (Eating:only once per week; Immunity All terrestrial diseases and poisons;Immortal; Safe in High Pressure; Radiation; Intense Cold;Heat in Low Pressure/Vacuum; Self-Contained Breathing;only has to sleep 8 hours per week) (36 Act Pts) - END=0
      - END=
    Golem body, all slots Unified Power (-1/4) - END=
7    1)  Tongues spell: Universal Translator 16- (24 Active Points); Increased Endurance Cost (x8 END; -1 3/4), Costs Endurance (Only Costs END to Activate; -1/4), Extra Time (Full Phase, Only to Activate, -1/4) - END=16
5    2)  Library of the ages: +2 with all Non-Combat Skills (20 Active Points); Concentration, Must Concentrate throughout use of Constant Power (0 DCV; Character is totally unaware of nearby events; -1 1/2), Increased Endurance Cost (x4 END; -3/4), Costs Endurance (Only Costs END to Activate; -1/4) - END=8
12    3)  Extra dimensional home: Custom Power (55 Active Points); Increased Endurance Cost (x10 END; -2), Concentration (0 DCV; -1/2), Restrainable (-1/2), Costs Endurance (Only Costs END to Activate; -1/4) [Notes: (1024 cubic meters 32m x 16m x 2m tall) stuff in storage
2 cases of MREs
4 5gal jerrycans of water
extra clothes
burner phones
cost 15
pg 27 apg2] - END=50
      - END=
    Body magical advantages - END=
3    1)  Magical Face Hardened(4 pts): Hardened (+1/4) for up to 45 Active Points of Resistant defenses, Constant (+1/2) (16 Active Points); Increased Endurance Cost (x7 END; -3*), Lockout (-1/2), Unified Power (-1/4) - END=0
4    2)  Magical defenses(pts): (Total: 18 Active Cost, 4 Real Cost) +9 Mental Defense (9 points total) (9 Active Points); Increased Endurance Cost (x7 END; -1 1/2), Lockout (-1/2), Costs Endurance (Only Costs END to Activate; -1/4), Unified Power (-1/4) (Real Cost: 2) plus Power Defense (9 points) (9 Active Points); Increased Endurance Cost (x7 END; -1 1/2), Lockout (-1/2), Costs Endurance (Only Costs END to Activate; -1/4), Unified Power (-1/4) (Real Cost: 2) - END=14
5    3)  Magical Grip(9pts): : Affects Desolidified Any form of Desolidification (+1/2) for up to 30 Active Points, Constant (+1/2) (22 Active Points); Increased Endurance Cost (x7 END; -3), Lockout (-1/2), Unified Power (-1/4) - END=14
2    4)  Magical Grip(5pts): : Cannot Be Escaped With Teleportation (+1/4) for up to 30 Active Points, Constant (+1/2) (10 Active Points); Increased Endurance Cost (x7 END; -3), Lockout (-1/2), Unified Power (-1/4) - END=7
      - END=
    gems of seeing, all slots Increased Endurance Cost (x7 END; -3), Lockout (normal sight; -1/2), Perceivable (unnatural eye colors white or gold depending on which is in use; -1/2), Unified Power (-1/4), Costs Endurance (Only Costs END to Activate; -1/4) - END=
6    1)  White eyes(combat mode) Magic based: Radar (Unusual Group), +4 to PER Roll, Discriminatory, Analyze, Telescopic:  +14 (36 Active Points) [Notes: No mods untill past 1km can be seen by those with a magic sense] - END=28
8    2)  Golden eyes: Detect and read/ analyze magic A Large Class Of Things 14- (Unusual Group), Discriminatory, Analyze, Partially Penetrative, Range, Sense, Targeting (44 Active Points) - END=28
      - END=
8    Multi-function hands: Multipower, 15-point reserve,  (15 Active Points); Restrainable (-1/2), Unified Power (-1/4) - END=
1f    1)  wedging/poking in her frail looking fingers to climb: Clinging (70 STR) (15 Active Points) - END=0
1f    2)  Stiletto fingers or axe hand: (Total: 14 Active Cost, 14 Real Cost) HKA 1 point (3d6 w/STR), Variable Special Effects (Limited Group of SFX; various blades and axes; +1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (9 Active Points) (Real Cost: 9) plus +1 OCV (Real Cost: 5) [Notes: Pushed 5d6hka  Haymaker 6d6-1hka  pushed haymaker 6d6 +1hka] - END=0
1f    3)  Predictive magic: +3 OCV (15 Active Points) - END=
      - END=
18    Various magics to move an Iron Golem: Multipower, 22-point reserve,  (22 Active Points); all slots Unified Power (-1/4) - END=
1f    1)  Magic  from Boots of Striding and Leaping: Running +14m (26m total), Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4) (20 Active Points) [Notes: 55.16 mph] - END=1
2f    2)  Magic  from Boots of Striding and Leaping w/ a lot of levitation: Leaping +44m (44m forward, 22m upward) (22 Active Points) [Notes: 47.52 mph] - END=2
2f    3)  Magic  from Boots of Striding and Leaping blended in to a Super Parkour movement style: Running 10m, x4 Noncombat, Usable [As Second Mode Of Movement] (leaping; +1/4) (22 Active Points) [Notes: max NC 95  mph max span 88m 538m  per turn
phase 0 22m/ 1 44m / 2 66m /3 88m] - END=2
2f    4)  Knockback Resistance -22m (22 Active Points) - END=0
1f    5)  Teleportation 10m, Safe Blind Teleport (+1/4), MegaScale (1m = 1 km; +1) (22 Active Points); Increased Endurance Cost (x2 END; -1/2) - END=4
1f    6)  Tunneling 15m through 2 PD material (19 Active Points) - END=2
1f    7)  Spot welding repairs using Hellfire and a bit of pounding to repair metal: Healing BODY 1d6, Decreased Re-use Duration (5 Minutes; +1) (20 Active Points); Restrainable (-1/2), Limited Power Power loses about a third of its effectiveness (self only(not for flesh and blood); -1/2), Perceivable (-1/4) - END=2
      - END=
8    Magics to alter self: Multipower, 26-point reserve,  (26 Active Points); all slots Increased Endurance Cost (x5 END; -2), Unified Power (-1/4) - END=
1f    1)  Shape Shift  (Sight, Hearing and Smell/Taste Groups, limited group of shapes), Costs END Only To Change Shape (+1/4) (25 Active Points) - END=10
1f    2)  Bright Sunlight/Intense Magnetic field/Wyld magic/Cold Iron: Change Environment (-1 to Characteristic Roll or Skill Roll, Varying Combat Effects), Area Of Effect (4m Radius; +1/4), Costs Endurance Only To Activate (+1/4), Variable Special Effects (Any SFX; +1/2) (26 Active Points) - END=10
1f    3)  Bright Sunlight as a flashlight: Change Environment (-1 to Sight Group PER Rolls, Varying Combat Effects), Costs Endurance Only To Activate (+1/4), Area Of Effect (64m Cone; +1), Thin Cone (-1/4) (26 Active Points) - END=10
1f    4)  Gates to Hell hot/cold: Killing Attack - Ranged 1 point, Area Of Effect (2m Surface; +1/4), Costs Endurance Only To Activate (+1/4), Personal Immunity (+1/4), Variable Special Effects (Limited Group of SFX; Hot or Cold; +1/4), Constant (+1/2), Uncontrolled (+1/2), Penetrating (x4; +2) (26 Active Points); Leaves A Trail (+1/4*) - END=10
1v    5)  Hot/cold as hell: Change Environment (+3 Temperature Level Adjustment), Costs Endurance Only To Activate (+1/4), Varying Effect Very Limited Group (hot or cold; +1/4), Area Of Effect (64m Radius; +1 1/4) (25 Active Points); No Range (-1/2) [Notes: Temperature
Level          REC Lost END Lost per 20 minutes
Comfort Zone —                   —
1 (-1)                -1                   -1
2 (-2)                -2                   -2
3 (-3)                -3                    -3
4 (-4)                -4                    -4
5 (-5)                -5                    -5] - END=10

Powers Total: 230

Cost    Skills
    Presence Skills may add + 3 for Striking Appearance
3    1)  Acting 13-
3    2)  Charm 13-
3    3)  Streetwise 13-
    
    Dex skills
3    1)  Stealth 13-
2    2)  Teamwork 10-
    
    Int based
2    1)  Navigation (Land) 12-
    
    general
3    1)  Power:  magic skill 11-
    
3    Scholar
1    1)  KS: Binding Magic (2 Active Points) 11-
1    2)  KS: Cults, Covens and Secret Organizations (2 Active Points) 11-
1    3)  KS: Legendary Magic Items and Artifacts (2 Active Points) 11-
1    4)  KS: Monsters, Legends and Myths (2 Active Points) 11-
1    5)  KS: Occult History (2 Active Points) 11-
1    6)  KS: The super powered scene (2 Active Points) 11-
1    7)  KS: Transmutation Magic (2 Active Points) 11-
1   😎 KS: World history (2 Active Points) 11-
    
    everyman skills
0    1)  Climbing 8-
0    2)  Deduction 8-
0    3)  Language:  English (completely fluent; literate) (4 Active Points)
0    4)  Paramedics 8-
0    5)  Persuasion 8-
0    6)  PS: model 11-
0    7)  Shadowing 8-
0   😎 TF:  Everyman Skill, Small Motorized Ground Vehicles
0    9)  AK: SF bay area 8-

Skills Total: 30

Cost    Perks
3    BARF Base
0    Fringe Benefit:  Custom Adder, Federal/National Police Powers

Perks Total: 3

Cost    Talents
9    +3/+3d6 Striking Appearance (vs. all characters)

Talents Total: 9

Value    Complications
5    Distinctive Features:  Detects as magical (Concealable; Noticed and Recognizable; Detectable By Uncommonly-Used Senses)
10    Distinctive Features:  usually the hottest woman around (Concealable; Noticed and Recognizable; Detectable By Commonly-Used Senses)
15    Hunted:  DEMON(she is a magical artifact) Infrequently (Mo Pow; Harshly Punish)
10    Hunted:  past assassinations coming back to haunt her Infrequently (As Pow; Harshly Punish)
10    Physical Complication:  she has no organs(normal healing powers have no effect on her Iron Golem body (Infrequently; Slightly Impairing)
15    Psychological Complication:  protective of the inocent (Common; Strong)
10    Social Complication:  Secret Id Infrequently, Major

Complications Points: 75

Base Points: 400
Experience: 68
Experience Unspent: 0
Total Character Cost: 468

[Beast]

@Opal
what has you confused?

[Tech]

21 hours ago, Grailknight said:

 

Lockout can be taken on any Power per CC. Though it's given value is -1/2, the description says it should be adjusted based on how many and what powers are affected.

 

As to the OP, I'd allow it assuming it wasn't pulling from a different END source than the rest of your powers. I can remember several combats in my old campaign where it would be a useful powerset but would have come back to bite you.

I was going to post that but everytime I tried hitting 'Submit Reply', the button would just sit there greyed out and not doing anything. Any suggestions what's going on?

[Terminax]

Alright, just screening that sheet it's definitely a little too fussy and gamey for me. I'm not your GM though, so it's not like it's particularly wrong or anything - it's just not how I'd like to see it done. The way the unified power structure is used is questionable and combined with the lockout adjustment makes my head hurt. But it's those multis that really set off my alarms. I'm going to plug in what you posted into HD and then play around with it. Should have the result to you by this evening.

[Beast]

Here is the HDC file

Nemisis BARF 468.hdc

[Nekkidcarpenter]

You went to a lot of effort to avoid buying a VPP.  The mixture of defensive spells is interesting, though I believe RAW only allows 'Cannot be escaped with Teleportation' on Entangles and Barriers that completely enclose the target, so as a cheap way to block Teleportation I'd disallow it.  Also, I disallow any purchase of Power Defense on any character that saved points with 'Unified Power'. 

[Hugh Neilson]

Just glancing through, I'd be wary of "massive multipliers to END costs, but only once when I activate it".  It's not very limiting when you can Activate all of the powers as part of the morning routine and have them available for the remainder of the day (i.e. basically whenever they are actually relevant).  For a net -2 limitation (e.g. Tongues spell), the ability should be losing most of its effectiveness.  It does not seem to lose much effectiveness at all.  It's at least a bit more limiting when the abilities can't be maintained in perpetuity, like the Lockout ones, especially if I make sure most teams include a Mentalist, someone with Armor Piercing attacks, a Teleporter and a Desolidifier.  Actyually, if the Mentalist is subtle and keeps suggesting you switch targets, or that the guy you are fighting might be able to teleport, that 50 END could run out pretty fast.

 

Of course, "sauce for the goose" - every NPC can do the same thing.  Say a suite of Limitations on some Triggered powers like "1 charge (-2;), OAF Potion (-1), Costs END (only to activate; -1/4); 8x END (-1 3/4) [it's EXHAUSTING to prepare that potion]; Extra Time, 1 hour (-3) [it takes FOREVER to prepare that potion] [I could toss on Concentration and 2 handed gestures while activating as well, I suppose]  Total of -8 Limitations for some one-shot potions (drink, or throw) DEMON teaches all its low-grade agents to make.  Maybe a single Drain of one magical effect, with a 4 meter radius, perhaps with Damage over Time and reduced recovery rate?  That would certainly reflect the fact that they are more powerful, and make getting that walking magical artifact easier to subdue and haul back to the Morbanes.  Maybe make them all Usable By Others - the Potion Master who never leaves the base makes them, and gives them to the agents so they don't even spend their own points!

 

I also agree with Nekkidcarpenter's reservations on coupling Power Defense and Unified Power, although the wonders of limitation stacking mean UP isn't having much impact.  I suppose it would not take much for a Morbane to develop some Drains that are AVAD Flash Defense (pick any sense desired), though.  We'll call it the Limburger Death of Magic.

[Beast]

in the case of the tongues spell the end cost must be paid each time the  language changes

Nemisis BARF 468.hdc

[Terminax]

Sorry I haven't been able to do much. I've had my GF's kid over for the weekend, and I just haven't had the mental energy to go through things while she's here. I'm working on it now.

[Beast]

On 7/23/2021 at 5:58 AM, Nekkidcarpenter said:

You went to a lot of effort to avoid buying a VPP.  The mixture of defensive spells is interesting, though I believe RAW only allows 'Cannot be escaped with Teleportation' on Entangles and Barriers that completely enclose the target, so as a cheap way to block Teleportation I'd disallow it.  Also, I disallow any purchase of Power Defense on any character that saved points with 'Unified Power'. 

for me there are too many different limitations and some things that cannot go into frame works like naked advantages and senses
I could try getting the 3 MPs into 1 VPP

 

[Beast]

On 7/23/2021 at 5:58 AM, Nekkidcarpenter said:

You went to a lot of effort to avoid buying a VPP.  The mixture of defensive spells is interesting, though I believe RAW only allows 'Cannot be escaped with Teleportation' on Entangles and Barriers that completely enclose the target, so as a cheap way to block Teleportation I'd disallow it.  Also, I disallow any purchase of Power Defense on any character that saved points with 'Unified Power'. 

Well going with a VPP of 63 pts(what those 3 MPs had in active points would raise her points to 498)
the vpp would look like this
1 Various  Magics added :  Variable Power Pool, 63 base + 26 control cost, Powers Can Be Changed As A Zero-Phase Action (+1), No Skill Roll Required (+1) (102 Active Points); all slots Gestures (Requires both hands; -1/2), Unified Power (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4)
 

or this(a bit cheaper I did not like the changes to VPPs  so I rarely use them) she becomes 489pt
2 Various  Magics added :  Variable Power Pool, 26 base + 63 control cost, Powers Can Be Changed As A Zero-Phase Action (+1), No Skill Roll Required (+1) (120 Active Points); all slots Gestures (Requires both hands; -1/2), Unified Power (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4)

I could toss the Library of the ages:  +2 with all Non-Combat Skills (and save 5 pts)

 

 

 

[Hugh Neilson]

Am I missing something (probably!)?  The biggest AP power I saw was 45, so a 23 point control cost would be enough.  The rest goes to the pool.  With a 60 (or so) point pool, and at least -1 in limitations on every power, you can fit several 45 AP powers in at a time.

[Beast]

there are 3 MPs being combined
#1 Multifuction Hands 15pts(and has only unified limitation)

#2 Magics to move an Iron Golem 22pts(as above)

#3 Magics to alter self 26pts(this is the one that has lots of limitations)
so the largest power at any 1 time is 26pts
 

 

[Hugh Neilson]

That being the case, you only need a control cost adequate for 26 AP, so 13 x 3 (no skill roll; 0 phase)/1.25 (unified power on all powers) = 31.  If I am adding the 3 Multipowers correctly, they total 52 points, which leaves a 21 Real Point pool.

 

If all the powers have Incantations and 2-handed gestures as well, the Control Cost is 13 x 3/2 = 19. which leaves enough for a 33 real point pool - enough to run a few 26 (or less) AP powers with -1 limitations at the same time.

[assault]

To be honest, the only thing that stands out about the character to me is the Killing Attack. It's not a problem, and the rest is just the eye straining small print I dislike about 5e/6e.

 

A nice set of abilities, but nothing to write home about.

[Beast]

4 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

That being the case, you only need a control cost adequate for 26 AP, so 13 x 3 (no skill roll; 0 phase)/1.25 (unified power on all powers) = 31.  If I am adding the 3 Multipowers correctly, they total 52 points, which leaves a 21 Real Point pool.

 

If all the powers have Incantations and 2-handed gestures as well, the Control Cost is 13 x 3/2 = 19. which leaves enough for a 33 real point pool - enough to run a few 26 (or less) AP powers with -1 limitations at the same time.

the total of the 3 MPs is 63 active pts running running at the same time (15pts Multifuction hands, 22pt make the golem move, alter the form of the golem 26pts)
I would prefer no gestures or incantations just unified
so Hugh what does the whole VPP look like?
Do VPPs in 6th work like 5th ed or is it reversed I could never wrap my head around if the active and the control where not the same