Enhanced Senses in EC 3rd

[Ninja-Bear]

Just as the title says. In 3rd ED, can you put an Enhanced Sense in an EC? Following all the rules naturally? I could not see any rule for or against it. For example, my character Twister I put in Passive Sonar in an EC. The EC is only 10 pts. 

[Duke Bushido]

Still out of town (family emergency), but I will double-check when I get back.

 

As far as I recall, you can sort of do that in 3e, _maybe_.  Here we go:

 

  Unless you are building either a really expensive Enhanced Sense or a very small EC (such as in your example), there's not going to be a lot of value in doing it.   

 

Remember that in the pre-4 editions, there are a lot of rules covering the-- for lack of a better term- "sameness" of the costs of the powers in the ECs.  While Multipowers-- to take advantage of the discount created by the Control Cost (Pool Cost in older editions) tend to naturally get built with similar Powers costs, ECs don't offer points efficiency in that same way.  Well, they _do_, but it's not as obvious, and there is no real "loss" for choosing not to do that; the only thing that happens is that your EC gets smaller.  You can still put large powers in small ECs; you simply pay full price for the overflow.  In that way, even though the rules focus on your most expensive power, it is your least expensive power in the pool that sets the cost and discount for the EC:  you have to spend the same(ish, anyway) on all the powers in the EC.  If you spend less on one, then that caps the discount, and you pay full price on any points over that cap.

 

That makes Enhanced Senses sort of kick in the teeth, since you can build a seriously tiny Enhanced Sense --say, Radio Hearing for 3 pts (Oh, please keep in mind that I am pulling prices from 2e, as that's the only rules set I keep in my phone.  It may not jibe with 3e, but as examples, they should do fine).  If you job that into an EC, your max discount now applies only to 3 pts worth of each power in the EC.  Everything after that-- what I term "the overflow" when I am coaching new builders-- you will pay full price on.

 

You can also build some seriously massive Enhanced Senses: say a 60 pt Telescopic Vision.  If you've got a lesser-expensive power in your EC-- say Instant Change for 5 pts (general rule of thumb: don't put IC in an EC; it really screws you up.  I'm not Goodman, and I'm certainly not Hugh, but some "efficiencies" _are_ self-evident, even to me), the your discount is only going to cover 5 points worth of your Tele-vision (sorry  😧 ) and the other 55 pts are full price.

 

Then there is another issue with Enhanced Senses:

 

Do I have Enhanced (+5) Vision, Telescopic (1/1000) Vision, and X-Ray Vision?  That is, do I have

EV (15 pts)

TV (15 pts) (again: sorry)

X-Ray Vision (20 pts)

 

If I have that list of three powers, then no; they cannot be put them into a Framework.

 

Why?  Because the first 3 editions have a default Framework for Enhanced Senses.  They don't really call it that, so as a GM, you (or your GM, if you are making this for use in someone else's game) may rule differently.  The first two most expensive Senses are full price; the next two are half-price; any further Sense are quarter-priced.  Every edition has rules against putting one framework inside another. 

 

_However_, as I noted, nothing in any of these early books calls this out specifically as a Framework (I don't know about 3e off the top of my head, but I know that 1 and 2e call them "Power Modifiers" instead of Frameworks.  Check for that term, too, just in case).  Since it's not called out as a Framework (or PM), your GM may rule differently.

 

_Also_, your GM _may_ allow you to "pick-and-choose:"  Do you want to use the default framework, or do you want to put these powers at full price into your EC, and use the discount that this provides?  For what it's worth, I have found that this option-- while perfectly valid and rules-legal, leads to a lot of Goodman-like number crunching and min-maxing------ which, I want to be clear, is _fine_.  There is no rule against maximum points exploitation, and many, many people enjoy it, so knock yourself out: figure it all up twice and then pick the one you like best.   

 

 

Now here's where the problem gets really wierd:

 

Or do I have Enhanced Telescopic N-Ray Vision (+5, 1/1000), a single power totaling 55 pts?  It _does_ make a difference, in both gameplay and costing.

 

It seems like a goofy question, but none of the editions up to and including 4e really discuss this _at all_ (having not read either of the other editions since the first go-through, I really don't remember about them), and it _does_ make a difference: If I have Telescoping _and_ X-ray, can I use them together?  That is, can I use my X-ray vision to check on the guys in the Space Station without having to actually fly up to the space station?  (unrelated side note: I _love_ watching the ISS fly over on a winter morning.    )  Or do I have to notice the space station acting erratically with my Tele-vision, then fly up close enough to use my X-ray?

 

Can I see the wave of X-ray energy traveling from Venus, or do I have to wait until I could see with without benefit of either Telescopic or Enhanced?   If I am using the X-ray vision to scope out the interior of the secret government moon base, do I still get my +5 to Perception Checks, or does that bonus apply only to things in my "normal" vision?

 

Seriously:  this has bugged me for _decades_!!  It didn't bother me at all for the longest time.  Then I sat down to play with a group that did it "the other way."  Suddenly I was nine kinds of confused about which was correct.

 

 

Crap!

 

Scott was _there_!   Crap! crap, crap, crap, crappity-crippity crap on a crutch!   

 

All this time, and it never occurred to me to ask Scott!       Scott: if you're following along, you will have a PM coming shortly. 

 

Over the years, I have seen both variants from multiple groups:

 

if you buy multiple variants of a sense, then they work together or not at your whim.

 

If you want them to work separately, you buy them separately.  If you want them to work together, you buy them together as a sense.  If you want both, then you buy twice.

 

Now because- at least in the 4-and-back sets, both of these _are_ "book-legal," simply because the book doesn't address it _at all_.  It's sort of like asking if mandating a snack break every thirty minutes is book-legal: it just ain't there.  Even the examples in the book demonstrate buying Microwave buying Telescopic Vision, UV Vision, and IR Vision, there is nothing in the text-- example or otherwise-- clarifying if one works with the other, or if they are exclusive.

 

And please notice that I am going to great lengths to avoid declaring one to be "obviously more correct" or any other thing like that, because my own experience with multiple groups has demonstrated that there isn't even a real consensus of what is "common-sense and logical." 

 

If you are using the "buy it all as one sense to use it as one sense," and that's the only "Enhanced Sense" you are buying, then it _cannot_ be put into the existing "Enhanced Senses Framework," so you're good to go with jobbing it into your Elemental Control.

 

Actually, if you're only buying _one_ Enhanced Sense, even if it's just a five-point +1 to your Vision PER Check, you're good to go.

 

 

So the shortest answer I can give you:

 

You can legally put ONE Enhanced Sense into a Framework with absolutely no question about the rules legality.

 

I understand the temptation to put up to TWO enhanced Senses into a Framework, as the discount for the "Enhanced Senses Framework," and honestly, I have allowed it in the past, even though it will discount at least one of them sooner than the built-in Enhanced Senses discount should kick in.  I have allowed it because in all cases I judged it to not be problematic to the game at hand, etc.  Keep in mind that this is going to be a GM call either way, as the rules don't really cover "sneaking around and picking and choosing your best cost-effectiveness option."  However, we all know that the culture around this game very much supports it, so I doubt you will get any blowback from doing it.

 

You can't put three or more into a Famework because the rules automatically drop them into their own unique Framework at that point.  UNLESS-- and this is big-- your GM has ruled that this discount is _not_ a Framework (or Power Modifier) simply because it isn't called one by name.

 

 

Before putting them into any framework, however, you have to determine what is the correct way to build for compound use:  Do you buy them separately and use them together?  If you, you're going to cripple the upper limits of your EC with three-to-ten point Enhanced Senses, making it an unattractive prospect to the savvy builder.

 

Do you buy it as one big compound power if you want to use them all as a single compound power?  If so, then as your Duke if EC is right for you.       And obviously, it would be: it would be one very expensive power (Super Hearing, Super Vision (sorry), etc) with little danger of dropping your discount level in your EC.  In fact, you'd likely have to pay quite a bit of full-price points over the EC cap if the Character isn't one of those "three really strong powers and done" type Characters.

 

 

 

Now for those who are wondering-- with the caveat that I am _not_ saying that this is more correct or less correct than any other possible interpretation:

 

_Personally_, if a Character has Enhanced, Telescopic, N-Ray vision, then yes: I will let him stand on the ground and look inside the ISS as it goes by.  Assuming he has enough telescopic to get a reasonable view and enough Enhanced to nail the PER roll after the penalties, of course.  But again: I am not saying it's the "rightest" way to do things.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[LoneWolf]

If I remember correctly each power in an elemental control has to be twice the cost of the elemental control.  So if you are putting a 10 point power in an elemental control the elemental control has to be 5 points.  That means that all the other powers only get to subtract 5 points.  So while it may be possible to put an enhanced sense into an elemental control it is usually a bad idea to do so.  Unless you all the other power in the elemental control are also very low in cost you are going to save more points by buying low cost powers outside the elemental control. 

[Ninja-Bear]

39 minutes ago, LoneWolf said:

If I remember correctly each power in an elemental control has to be twice the cost of the elemental control.  So if you are putting a 10 point power in an elemental control the elemental control has to be 5 points.  That means that all the other powers only get to subtract 5 points.  So while it may be possible to put an enhanced sense into an elemental control it is usually a bad idea to do so.  Unless you all the other power in the elemental control are also very low in cost you are going to save more points by buying low cost powers outside the elemental control. 

Well fwiw in 3rd- Passive Sonar (which is different than regular Sonar) is 25 pts.

 

i quickly added up my savings on the EC. It works out to 40 pts which was why I was able to buy the EB. I’ll post the character soon. He isn’t the most cost effective but I’m ok with that. I just need to test him to make sure he’s playable.

Edited July 25, 2021 by Ninja-Bear

[Derek Hiemforth]

4 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

In 3rd ED, can you put an Enhanced Sense in an EC? Following all the rules naturally? I could not see any rule for or against it. 

 

Champions 3E, page 36:  "Powers that don't use END aren't generally allowed in Elemental Controls, but the GM can make an exception to this rule."

 

Weirdly, 3E never says that Enhanced Senses don't cost END to use.  So if you assume they do (as the book says you should, since it says any Powers that don't cost END will say they don't cost END, and Enhanced Senses  doesn't say that), then yes, you could put them in an EC.

 

Now, I have literally never encountered a GM, even back in 3E days, that had Enhanced Senses cost END. Also, under Endurance on page 78, it says, "...some Powers do not cost END to use. These Powers are marked "No Endurance Cost" in their cost summary."  Well, Enhanced Senses doesn't have a cost summary. Sooo... do they really cost END?  Or was the bit that says they don't cost END just accidentally left out?

 

I would say the latter, and that therefore they cannot go in an EC unless they get that all-important Special GM Permission™.  But just reading the book as it is, it seems to say they can, but also that they cost END.  🤷‍♂️

[Ninja-Bear]

@Derek Hiemforth, good catch. I didn’t see  that rule. Or I just overlooked it. 
 

Thanks!

[rravenwood]

I can't say that I'd ever noticed that the 3rd edition rules don't explicitly mention that Enhanced Senses cost no END - this is probably because I started out with 2nd edition, where it DOES explicitly state that "Enhanced Senses do not cost END to use" (p.17).  Some evidence that that statement was left out of 3rd edition as an oversight rather than an intentional change would include that the example characters in the book do not show any END costs for their Enhanced Senses (see Starburst, Bluejay, Howler, Mechanon, Dragonfly, Shrinker, Viper Leader), and neither do the writeups in subsequently released books such as Enemies III.  Additionally, Adventurers Club #6 contained an overview of the rules changes and errata for 3rd edition ("Champions Plus" column), where it's stated in the preface that "The new edition is mainly a more user-friendly rewrite of the last edition - there are very few rules changes. But Champions co-author George MacDonald has written up those few"; the column says nothing about any change to Enhanced Senses, which I would have expected to have merited inclusion if it had been an intentional rules change.

 

Regarding Elemental Controls, 3rd edition is slightly more permissive that 2nd edition in that 2nd edition merely states that "Generally, Powers that don't normally cost END to use should not be put into Elemental Controls" while - as has already been pointed out - 3rd edition adds the explicit allowance that "the GM can make an exception to this rule."  (I won't go down the rabbit hole of talking about how back in the day GM exceptions and allowances were always assumed by us to be possible, etc., etc... uphill in the snow both ways, get off my lawn... )

[rravenwood]

Whaddya know - actually, 3rd edition DOES include the rule that Enhanced Senses don't cost any END, but they screwed up on the layout and the paragraph which says that appears AFTER the listings for Infrared Vision and Enhanced Vision (p.23), so it's easy to overlook.  This is one of many epic layout fails that happened in the old Hero Games books - they just make me laugh now

[Derek Hiemforth]

5 minutes ago, rravenwood said:

Whaddya know - actually, 3rd edition DOES include the rule that Enhanced Senses don't cost any END, but they screwed up on the layout and the paragraph which says that appears AFTER the listings for Infrared Vision and Enhanced Vision (p.23), so it's easy to overlook. 

 

Great catch!  I was specifically looking for that language somewhere around Enhanced Senses, and I still missed it! 

[Ninja-Bear]

Fwiw, I can remove ES out of the EC and I can cut a thing or two and still be happy with him.

[Ninja-Bear]

Or I could be sneaky and put on Costs End to be legal and still save points! Ok let’s NOT go down that rabbit hole! 😂 

[LoneWolf]

It’s been a while since I used the 3rd edition rules.  For the most part you either wanted to have a high cost elemental control or an extremely low one.  For the most part you got the most bang for your points with the higher point elemental control. A lot of times you ended up saving point by increasing the cost of some of your powers.  On the other hand an extremely low point elemental control often allowed you to pick up a lot of low point powers.  It could be very complex trying to figure out the best way to build the character.  I remember a couple of times where putting 0 END on a couple of powers ended up saving me a bunch of points.  

 

Most of  the time we ignored the cost END rule as long as the special effect fit.  
 

[Duke Bushido]

13 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Or I could be sneaky and put on Costs End to be legal and still save points! Ok let’s NOT go down that rabbit hole! 😂 

 

Gotta level with you:

 

Just because you were asking about putting them in an EC, I had assumed that this was precisely what you had done to meet the END requirement.

 

 

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

I used to build skill Elemental Controls in 4th edition, because skill based characters got expensive without much combat ability to show for it.

[Derek Hiemforth]

12 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

Just because you were asking about putting them in an EC, I had assumed that this was precisely what you had done to meet the END requirement.

 

Same here!   

[Ninja-Bear]

I ended up increasing his EC by 10 pts and dropping out his FF that was in the EC. However I did this as to raise his flight up higher (as I envision him a natural flier) and bought and additional skill level with flight (now it’s +2).  Overall I’m happy with him.

[Ninja-Bear]

I got to do a sample battle with him against 3 Viper Agents. And we’ll it was a tough fight.  I’ve decided that I’d drop one level of move skill level and buy one level of combat  for his EB.