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Adding standard effect to aid does not calculate 1/2 dice properly.


Panpiper

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I want to create an effect that adds exactly 5 points to a stat, say strength. To do that I select standard effect. If I select for levels one die, it will give me a standard effect of 3. If I select two die, it will give me a standard of effect of 6. However I want five. So I reduce the die to just one and hit +1/2 die, expecting that to give me a standard effect of 5. It does not, it gives me a standard effect of 4. Selecting +1 'also' gives me a standard effect of 4.

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Yeah I noticed the same thing, but I just use HD to build, not give exact results.  The HD math can make powers cost zero points with enough limitations and that's not kosher either.  A base power can got into negative cost with limitations on it, which is just... bizarre.

 

Use Differing Modifiers with only limitations on it, see what happens.

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1 hour ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

The HD math can make powers cost zero points with enough limitations and that's not kosher either.

No, it does not…no matter how many Limitations you care to pile on.

 

“HD math” is HERO System math - it follows all the rules of the system.

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The problem is that the system doesn't define 3-level differentiation very often.  So, if a full die is 3, is a half die 1 or 2?  

 

An alternative is to define a custom adder, which HD allows.  For Aid, for example, you can build a "-1 pip" to create the equivalent of 2d6-1.  It won't be reflected in what the standard effect indicates, but it's recorded and priced properly.  A custom adder is allowed to have a negative cost.

 

That said:  I think the system is wrong in the first place.  It's rounding you down twice...first, making standard effect 3 instead of 3.5, then rounding 3 down to 1.  But standard effect was never written to be average...2d6 standard effect is 6, when the average is 7.  Realistically, defining the 1/2 die standard effect as +2 is much more fair.

 

I'd also, I think, be OK with eliminating many of the intermediate steps, at least on the lower-cost-per-die powers...basic Blast, cosmetic/minor Transform, Aid, etc.  Higher cost...Mental Blast, most AVADs, major/severe Transform, Drain, etc...the half die level feels like it's plenty.  It might be that my use of the system is for supers ONLY...but a problem with it is trying to cover everything under the sun.  

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It should never happen with a naked modifier because you can't have a naked limitation by the rules, only a naked advantage.  I use them a lot, especially for movement because you can't turn *off* an advantage by the rules.  So if you want Teleport, MegaScale...you do 2 slots in a framework, or you do a base teleport and a naked advantage.  You can add limitations to the naked advantage...but the baseline for the limitations is the cost of the naked advantage.

 

Differing Modifiers...I think the point is to show the extra cost or reduced cost to use the particular power in the mode specified.  The example says, here is the power from the standpoint of the recipient.  The differing modifiers apply only to the grantor.  The -6 is the savings, but remember:  it is a power unto itself, like a naked advantage is.  If HD listed it as 3...remember that the Differing Modifier is a power unto itself, so it would *increase* the cost of the UOO, not decrease it, from HD's perspective.  

 

The problem is that what you'd prefer is to combine that differing advantage with the rest of the power details, to get a neat, final cost.  That would be a MESS.  And I seriously doubt it's worth it...how often do people take Differing Modifiers?  

 

 

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7 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Here's what I mean by wonky math; a 9 point power with 2¼ limitations on it is 2.79 or 3 points, not -6.  I can't even guess what math its using to get that result.  I've seen it happen quite a bit usually with naked modifiers and this kind of thing.

You’re building Differing Modifiers - have you read the rules regarding how those work?  
 

9/(1+2.25) = 9/3.25 = 2.76 = 3 points

 

That’s the cost of the Power with the Limitations added.  Guess what the difference is between 3 points and the 9 point Power you specified?  -6 points - exactly what HD shows.

 

The only difference between this and the example used in the Differing Modifiers portion of the rulebook is that you need to have already purchased the 9 point Power that you're applying Differing Modifiers to (i.e. used HD to get the Real Cost of the ability that Differing Modifiers are applying to).  The 5 points listed in the rulebook for the example Power is the net cost between a 13 point Power purchased along with Differing Modifiers (UOO and -2 in Limitations) costing -8 points.

 

To take a more practical example, take a 1/2d6 Blast (3 points base cost) and apply -20 in Limitations.  The real cost? 1 point.

 

Again, HD is performing all math in accordance with the Hero System rules.

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6 hours ago, unclevlad said:

It should never happen with a naked modifier because you can't have a naked limitation by the rules, only a naked advantage.  I use them a lot, especially for movement because you can't turn *off* an advantage by the rules.  So if you want Teleport, MegaScale...you do 2 slots in a framework, or you do a base teleport and a naked advantage.  You can add limitations to the naked advantage...but the baseline for the limitations is the cost of the naked advantage.

 

Differing Modifiers...I think the point is to show the extra cost or reduced cost to use the particular power in the mode specified.  The example says, here is the power from the standpoint of the recipient.  The differing modifiers apply only to the grantor.  The -6 is the savings, but remember:  it is a power unto itself, like a naked advantage is.  If HD listed it as 3...remember that the Differing Modifier is a power unto itself, so it would *increase* the cost of the UOO, not decrease it, from HD's perspective.  

 

The problem is that what you'd prefer is to combine that differing advantage with the rest of the power details, to get a neat, final cost.  That would be a MESS.  And I seriously doubt it's worth it...how often do people take Differing Modifiers?  

 

 

He's not building a Naked Advantage, he's building a Differing Modifier.  Per the rules, Differing Modifiers are applied to the Real Cost (the cost after all Adders, Advantages, and Limitations on the base Power are applied) and represent the difference in cost (hence the name, presumably).  They are not factored into the original Power cost calculation (Advantages adding into the Active Cost calculation before Limitations are added into the Real Cost calculation) -- again, by the rules.

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I'll also point out that Differing Modifiers does take into account the 1 point minimum cost rule -- the net cost of the base Power plus Differing Modifiers will never drop below 1 point, no matter how many Limitations you place on Differing Modifiers.

So Differing Modifiers with -20 in Limitations applied to a 13 point Power will show as -12 points. Net cost to the character?  1 point.

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Quote

That’s the cost of the Power with the Limitations added.  Guess what the difference is between 3 points and the 9 point Power you specified?  -6 points - exactly what HD shows.

 

Ah I see, so instead of displaying the actual cost, its displaying the difference in cost.  Its a bit confusing because the documentation doesn't really explain any of this, at least that I could find.  And it displays as the cost "-6" which looks really odd in the builds.

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1 minute ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

 

Ah I see, so instead of displaying the actual cost, its displaying the difference in cost.  Its a bit confusing because the documentation doesn't really explain any of this, at least that I could find.  And it displays as the cost "-6" which looks really odd in the builds.

You'd typically want to include the base Power with the Differing Modifiers build...it was part of the reason for the inclusion of Compound Powers. The alternative would be to have the user write in the full base Power to the "Applies to" text field, which is unwieldy and was generally thought to be a bad idea...hence the approach taken.

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1 hour ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

 

Ah I see, so instead of displaying the actual cost, its displaying the difference in cost.  Its a bit confusing because the documentation doesn't really explain any of this, at least that I could find.  And it displays as the cost "-6" which looks really odd in the builds.

 

Being nosy. Could you post an example file please?

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59 minutes ago, HeroGM said:

 

Being nosy. Could you post an example file please?

Here's an example of how it's intended to be used...though HD is not a replacement for knowledge of the rules.

 

The Gift of Flight:  (Total: 36 Active Cost, 5 Real Cost) Flight 20m; Increased Endurance Cost (x2 END; -1/2) (Real Cost: 13) plus Usable By Other (+1/4); OAF (Magic Wand; -1), Increased Endurance Cost (x2 END; -1/2), Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4) for up to 13 Points of Flight (Real Cost: -8)

differingmods.hdc

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