Panpiper Posted August 6, 2021 Report Share Posted August 6, 2021 I want to create an effect that adds exactly 5 points to a stat, say strength. To do that I select standard effect. If I select for levels one die, it will give me a standard effect of 3. If I select two die, it will give me a standard of effect of 6. However I want five. So I reduce the die to just one and hit +1/2 die, expecting that to give me a standard effect of 5. It does not, it gives me a standard effect of 4. Selecting +1 'also' gives me a standard effect of 4. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted August 6, 2021 Report Share Posted August 6, 2021 That is correct according to the rules of the system (6E1 page 133). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panpiper Posted August 6, 2021 Author Report Share Posted August 6, 2021 I guess there is still room for improvement in a seventh edition. Because that is pretty clearly a "bad rule". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeroGM Posted August 6, 2021 Report Share Posted August 6, 2021 Or you could just go with "6" and say it's "5". Nekkidcarpenter 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekkidcarpenter Posted August 6, 2021 Report Share Posted August 6, 2021 And if you're trying to just add something like 5 points of Strength, just buy 5 Strength as a power with appropriate advantages and limitations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted August 6, 2021 Report Share Posted August 6, 2021 Yeah I noticed the same thing, but I just use HD to build, not give exact results. The HD math can make powers cost zero points with enough limitations and that's not kosher either. A base power can got into negative cost with limitations on it, which is just... bizarre. Use Differing Modifiers with only limitations on it, see what happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted August 6, 2021 Report Share Posted August 6, 2021 1 hour ago, Christopher R Taylor said: The HD math can make powers cost zero points with enough limitations and that's not kosher either. No, it does not…no matter how many Limitations you care to pile on. “HD math” is HERO System math - it follows all the rules of the system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unclevlad Posted August 6, 2021 Report Share Posted August 6, 2021 The problem is that the system doesn't define 3-level differentiation very often. So, if a full die is 3, is a half die 1 or 2? An alternative is to define a custom adder, which HD allows. For Aid, for example, you can build a "-1 pip" to create the equivalent of 2d6-1. It won't be reflected in what the standard effect indicates, but it's recorded and priced properly. A custom adder is allowed to have a negative cost. That said: I think the system is wrong in the first place. It's rounding you down twice...first, making standard effect 3 instead of 3.5, then rounding 3 down to 1. But standard effect was never written to be average...2d6 standard effect is 6, when the average is 7. Realistically, defining the 1/2 die standard effect as +2 is much more fair. I'd also, I think, be OK with eliminating many of the intermediate steps, at least on the lower-cost-per-die powers...basic Blast, cosmetic/minor Transform, Aid, etc. Higher cost...Mental Blast, most AVADs, major/severe Transform, Drain, etc...the half die level feels like it's plenty. It might be that my use of the system is for supers ONLY...but a problem with it is trying to cover everything under the sun. Christopher R Taylor and Panpiper 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted August 10, 2021 Report Share Posted August 10, 2021 Here's what I mean by wonky math; a 9 point power with 2¼ limitations on it is 2.79 or 3 points, not -6. I can't even guess what math its using to get that result. I've seen it happen quite a bit usually with naked modifiers and this kind of thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unclevlad Posted August 10, 2021 Report Share Posted August 10, 2021 It should never happen with a naked modifier because you can't have a naked limitation by the rules, only a naked advantage. I use them a lot, especially for movement because you can't turn *off* an advantage by the rules. So if you want Teleport, MegaScale...you do 2 slots in a framework, or you do a base teleport and a naked advantage. You can add limitations to the naked advantage...but the baseline for the limitations is the cost of the naked advantage. Differing Modifiers...I think the point is to show the extra cost or reduced cost to use the particular power in the mode specified. The example says, here is the power from the standpoint of the recipient. The differing modifiers apply only to the grantor. The -6 is the savings, but remember: it is a power unto itself, like a naked advantage is. If HD listed it as 3...remember that the Differing Modifier is a power unto itself, so it would *increase* the cost of the UOO, not decrease it, from HD's perspective. The problem is that what you'd prefer is to combine that differing advantage with the rest of the power details, to get a neat, final cost. That would be a MESS. And I seriously doubt it's worth it...how often do people take Differing Modifiers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted August 10, 2021 Report Share Posted August 10, 2021 7 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said: Here's what I mean by wonky math; a 9 point power with 2¼ limitations on it is 2.79 or 3 points, not -6. I can't even guess what math its using to get that result. I've seen it happen quite a bit usually with naked modifiers and this kind of thing. You’re building Differing Modifiers - have you read the rules regarding how those work? 9/(1+2.25) = 9/3.25 = 2.76 = 3 points That’s the cost of the Power with the Limitations added. Guess what the difference is between 3 points and the 9 point Power you specified? -6 points - exactly what HD shows. The only difference between this and the example used in the Differing Modifiers portion of the rulebook is that you need to have already purchased the 9 point Power that you're applying Differing Modifiers to (i.e. used HD to get the Real Cost of the ability that Differing Modifiers are applying to). The 5 points listed in the rulebook for the example Power is the net cost between a 13 point Power purchased along with Differing Modifiers (UOO and -2 in Limitations) costing -8 points. To take a more practical example, take a 1/2d6 Blast (3 points base cost) and apply -20 in Limitations. The real cost? 1 point. Again, HD is performing all math in accordance with the Hero System rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted August 10, 2021 Report Share Posted August 10, 2021 6 hours ago, unclevlad said: It should never happen with a naked modifier because you can't have a naked limitation by the rules, only a naked advantage. I use them a lot, especially for movement because you can't turn *off* an advantage by the rules. So if you want Teleport, MegaScale...you do 2 slots in a framework, or you do a base teleport and a naked advantage. You can add limitations to the naked advantage...but the baseline for the limitations is the cost of the naked advantage. Differing Modifiers...I think the point is to show the extra cost or reduced cost to use the particular power in the mode specified. The example says, here is the power from the standpoint of the recipient. The differing modifiers apply only to the grantor. The -6 is the savings, but remember: it is a power unto itself, like a naked advantage is. If HD listed it as 3...remember that the Differing Modifier is a power unto itself, so it would *increase* the cost of the UOO, not decrease it, from HD's perspective. The problem is that what you'd prefer is to combine that differing advantage with the rest of the power details, to get a neat, final cost. That would be a MESS. And I seriously doubt it's worth it...how often do people take Differing Modifiers? He's not building a Naked Advantage, he's building a Differing Modifier. Per the rules, Differing Modifiers are applied to the Real Cost (the cost after all Adders, Advantages, and Limitations on the base Power are applied) and represent the difference in cost (hence the name, presumably). They are not factored into the original Power cost calculation (Advantages adding into the Active Cost calculation before Limitations are added into the Real Cost calculation) -- again, by the rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeroGM Posted August 10, 2021 Report Share Posted August 10, 2021 Where is differing modifiers? I'd rather check up on it then say out of turn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted August 10, 2021 Report Share Posted August 10, 2021 2 minutes ago, HeroGM said: Where is differing modifiers? I'd rather check up on it then say out of turn 6E1 page 359. Before you ask, no, he didn't apply UOO to his build. While that is the primary intention of Differing Modifiers, Steve didn't want them to be locked into that...so they're not. Chris Goodwin 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted August 10, 2021 Report Share Posted August 10, 2021 I'll also point out that Differing Modifiers does take into account the 1 point minimum cost rule -- the net cost of the base Power plus Differing Modifiers will never drop below 1 point, no matter how many Limitations you place on Differing Modifiers. So Differing Modifiers with -20 in Limitations applied to a 13 point Power will show as -12 points. Net cost to the character? 1 point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted August 10, 2021 Report Share Posted August 10, 2021 Quote That’s the cost of the Power with the Limitations added. Guess what the difference is between 3 points and the 9 point Power you specified? -6 points - exactly what HD shows. Ah I see, so instead of displaying the actual cost, its displaying the difference in cost. Its a bit confusing because the documentation doesn't really explain any of this, at least that I could find. And it displays as the cost "-6" which looks really odd in the builds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted August 10, 2021 Report Share Posted August 10, 2021 1 minute ago, Christopher R Taylor said: Ah I see, so instead of displaying the actual cost, its displaying the difference in cost. Its a bit confusing because the documentation doesn't really explain any of this, at least that I could find. And it displays as the cost "-6" which looks really odd in the builds. You'd typically want to include the base Power with the Differing Modifiers build...it was part of the reason for the inclusion of Compound Powers. The alternative would be to have the user write in the full base Power to the "Applies to" text field, which is unwieldy and was generally thought to be a bad idea...hence the approach taken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeroGM Posted August 10, 2021 Report Share Posted August 10, 2021 1 hour ago, Christopher R Taylor said: Ah I see, so instead of displaying the actual cost, its displaying the difference in cost. Its a bit confusing because the documentation doesn't really explain any of this, at least that I could find. And it displays as the cost "-6" which looks really odd in the builds. Being nosy. Could you post an example file please? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted August 10, 2021 Report Share Posted August 10, 2021 59 minutes ago, HeroGM said: Being nosy. Could you post an example file please? Here's an example of how it's intended to be used...though HD is not a replacement for knowledge of the rules. The Gift of Flight: (Total: 36 Active Cost, 5 Real Cost) Flight 20m; Increased Endurance Cost (x2 END; -1/2) (Real Cost: 13) plus Usable By Other (+1/4); OAF (Magic Wand; -1), Increased Endurance Cost (x2 END; -1/2), Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4) for up to 13 Points of Flight (Real Cost: -8) differingmods.hdc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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