Good/Bad Credit

[Steve]

Let’s talk about credit, which is a big feature of modern and most likely future societies.

Hero A doesn’t have much money on hand, but they have built an excellent credit rating (800+) and can easily borrow tens of thousands of dollars quickly if needed (loans, leases, platinum credit cards, etc). They can always manage to pay their debts eventually.

 

I’m wondering if this is just a special effect of the Money Perk, or if it could justify a separate Perk of some kind.

 

On the other hand, Hero B is always in debt and can never seem to make ends meet. Their credit rating is below 600, so they need co-signers to lease an apartment or buy a car.

 

This would seem adequately covered by the Poor Complication.

 

Hero C is quite wealthy (10+ points of Money), but has a poor credit score right now due to problems with drinking that caused several financial reversals. While they still have Money from their Perk, rebuilding their company will need borrowing.

 

Would this be a Complication of some kind?

[Grailknight]

Reputation if you feel you must or if it's going to be a long term campaign point. If it's just one or two sessions then just roleplay it

[Tjack]

   Setting aside exceptions to the rule like Madoff of certain ex-presidents we mere mortals need a certain amount of cash or property in order to achieve a decent credit rating.  
   In game terms if you haven’t got a limitation about it then your character is assumed to have a working to middle class life-style.  If you want your PC to be a Tony Stark/Bruce Wayne type you buy the perk Wealthy.  Anything more that this is just roleplay.

  If they have a million dollars in the bank that they can access at any time, that’s the perk.  If they can’t get their credit card to work that’s roleplay.

[Derek Hiemforth]

I see Wealth in the game as being more a measure of, well, wealth than credit, exactly.  Credit is a measure of how much you could come up with if you maxed out your resources, while Wealth is more a measure of what your resources are without maxing them out.

 

Yes, some "middle class" people have good enough credit that they could get their hands on $100K if they absolutely had to. But their everyday lifestyle is still middle-class, and accessing that 100K would leave them with debts that would take years to pay off.

 

Someone with even 5 CP of Wealth would be able to get 100K with much less long-term impact, even if it wouldn't exactly be a breeze, and it wouldn't leave them in as much of a crunch afterward.  Also, if they maxed out their resources the same way, they could come up with considerably more than 100K. 

 

For the middle-class person (0 CP of Wealth), 100K may be more than their entire annual income (it probably is more).  For the 5 CP of Wealth person, 100K is about a fifth of their annual income.  That's still a big chunk, but 100K to someone with an 80K income is a lot bigger deal than it is to someone with a 500K income, even if their good credit technically means they could get their hands on it...

[dmjalund]

so credit is a measure of how far you can 'Push' your weath? does this mean using credit costs END and requires an EGO roll?

[LoneWolf]

Wealth is the ability to procure the things you need.  How you do them is not as important.  Credit plays a large role in this, but more important than either cash or credit is non-liquid assets.  That is what sets the really wealthy apart from normal people.   The really wealthy have the majority of their wealth tied up in non-liquid assets.  Bill Gates is not wealthy because he has a lot of money in the bank.  He has stocks and real-estate and other long term investments.  Its why the wealthy are not as affected by inflation as ordinary people are.   When the value of the dollar goes down, the person whose wealth is primarily in liquid assets (cash) is affected more than someone with a lot of non-liquid assets.  

 

The wealth perk and complication are about disposable income.   If you can get ahold of money easily you should have the wealth perk.   If on the other hand you cannot afford the things ordinary people take for granted it is probably a complication.  Your Hero C should not have the 10+ points of wealth no matter what the value of his company is on paper.  He should have a lesser perk , or if things are really bad no perk.  It’s unlikely he would have a complication.  
 

[unclevlad]

Having lines of credit totaling $100K is easier said than done unless you also have fairly significant net worth and/or income.  Also, an 800 credit rating isn't that big a deal.  

 

If you suddenly slap unusual sums onto your credit card...just because you have a good credit rating at the time, doesn't mean you can pay them off.  That requires income...or cash on hand.  (Oh, and suddenly slapping a few thousand onto one of those lines, DOES lower your credit score.)  Paying them off 'eventually'...isn't good enough to maintain an 800+.  Because that says you're largely at your limit.  Especially on plastic;  the interest rates are bad to obscene.

 

Hero B probably does have a small complication, yes.

 

Hero C...a 10 point wealth perk is $5M a year...no strings attached.  If there are reversals, then slam the size of the perk.  If there's major debts...slam the perk first.  

 

$100K income is middle class...and not even upper middle.  The income levels go back to at least 5E;  that was 2002.  They weren't changed.  Not only are there 20 years' worth of inflation, but there've been concept shifts...the minimum wage is rarely viewed as a living wage.  

https://money.usnews.com/money/personal-finance/family-finance/articles/where-do-i-fall-in-the-american-economic-class-system

 

And note that if you've got even 1 dependent, $100K is just doing OK.  You're not flush.

 

I agree that the Money perk represents income;  credit isn't a factor.  Credit's what you use when you don't want to sacrifice liquidity.

 

If you're playing in 2021, too...those levels of wealth need interpretation.  They're OLD.  I read the perks, not as income, but discretionary income.  Your income is everything, but it has to pay for housing (mortgage or rent), taxes, utilities, daily transportation, food, insurance, and everyday expenses.  What's left is your discretionary income.  For someone single, paying normal taxes, and in a moderately priced area, discretionary income of $100K probably means gross income of $300-400K in most cases...remember that taxes on it will take close to half.  A house tops $400K *fast*...so property taxes might be another $5k.  Car and property insurance?  My car insurance...with a good record and a LOW value car...is $1000 a year.  House insurance isn't bad but my house is quite basic.  Utilities...internet, cable, phone, cell phone?  $200-400 a month, and I'm talking 1 line.  Food is variable, but we're not talking ramen and mac'n'cheese.  Quality food costs.  Good clothing costs;  we're not talking about haunting Marshall's for bargains, or Wal Mart for ANYTHING...we've got a wealth perk.

 

Start breaking this all down, and the total is higher than you think.  Plus, the cost of living in your area of residence makes a major difference...start looking at what you can get for, say, $4000 to $5000 a month in NYC or San Francisco.  It's WAY less than you would think.  Plus, major cities often have city taxes...on top of state and federal.    Don't want to worry about stuff like this at all.  While, OK, $100K discretionary doesn't go as far in NYC as elsewhere, it's still a lot closer to location-neutral.

 

And it gives you a better handle as player or GM.  "Hey, I wanna buy a new, nice truck."  OK...$50K.  Can do that on a 1 point wealth perk, but it'll do a number on your liquidity for a while.  Can do it with a car loan for only mild impact, but for several years.  Cool.  It's reasonably understandable now.  Might take a little research...what does a high end dinner run per person?  Starts at probably $100, without any booze tab;  upper level?  The tasting menu at Masa is $800 a person.  Before tax or tip.  So there's still a lot of spitballing, but saying it represents discretionary income simplifies things and lets you get a decent handle.

 

 

[IndianaJoe3]

I think that accumulated wealth vs credit is probably more detail than is necessary for most games. You can live a pretty nice lifestyle even if you are nominally in debt up to your eyeballs. If you're rich (worth, say, $20 million) but have outsize debts (owe $50 million to the Russian mob), that might be a separate Social Complication (or Hunted). 

[SCUBA Hero]

19 hours ago, dmjalund said:

so credit is a measure of how far you can 'Push' your weath? does this mean using credit costs END and requires an EGO roll?

You jest (I think), but this is the concept I'd run with if I was GM'ing a modern campaign...

 

Well done! 👍

[unclevlad]

In a case like that, I'd encumber the perk.  4 point wealth perk, but all of a sudden you've got a large purchase?  While you pay the loan, your wealth perk is lower...because that loan payment is how you're choosing to spend that chunk of your discretionary income.  This might be a pain to do;  it might be less than a point, so there might be some tracking.  But it's not that hard.  

 

One thing to remember:  the character has to contend with repaying the principal...and the interest.  For example, say you borrow $1M, at 10% per year interest, and make $200,000 a year in payments:

 

Quote

principal	Int (10%/year)	payment
1000000	100000	200000
900000	90000	200000
790000	79000	200000
669000	66900	200000
535900	53590	200000
389490	38949	200000
228439	22843.9	200000
51282.9	5128.29	200000

 

So you pay it off after about 7 years and 3 months or so.  

 

So even with a 5 point wealth perk...you're putting stress on it.  I'd call it a 3 point perk for the entire 7 years.  6+ points, it wouldn't count as a whole point, but it'd be a footnote.