Constant vs Continuous

[Christopher R Taylor]

So, if I buy an attack power with Constant, it behaves differently than non-attack powers; it stays on the target and keeps taking effect each phase without needing a roll.

 

But what if I want to buy an attack power that's lingering and ready to use, instead of instant, but I have to make an attack roll each phase to use?  Like a knife?  Just making it a Focus doesn't change how Constant or Instant works.  As I understand it, making Blast into a Focus means I need the focus to use the blast each time, but I have to use whatever preparatory things to get it to work each time, like Incantations or a skill roll.

 

I want to use the incantatations, skill rolls, etc once, and have the attack available to use each phase, but not take effect automatically each phase.  Like, say, a fist that I power up with cosmic energy and can punch harder with, but takes a phase to get ready, requires concentration and muttering a prayer to the cosmic god Quatloo.

 

Only in alternate form seems to kind of cover this, but its a limitation and is meant for "I change into Quasar" kind of concepts, not prepare and go.

 

Differing modifiers might work I suppose but dang that's pointlessly complicated just for a simple idea

[Simon]

This is not so much a Rules Question as it is a How-To, so I'm moving it to the discussion forum.

 

To provide at least a partial response:

 

1. Differing Modifiers are NOT intended for that.  They are intended for a Power that you can grant to others where the granting of the Power comes with different Modifiers that the Power itself has (for the user of said Power).

 

2. If you're looking to take Incantations, Extra Time, Gestures, etc. and have them required for each use of the Power but not as the Power is used (e.g. power up your fist with cosmic energy, some time passes, you decide to use said cosmic energy in a punch....and now have to power it up again before you can punch someone else) then I would recommend reducing the appropriate Limitation value based on the relative effectiveness of being able to prepare that first use in advance (extra time for a Full Turn?  that's going to go down pretty significantly in value.  Incantations? Likely not going to change in value much at all).  Or just agree with the GM that you can prepare an ability in advance for that first use and leave the Limitations alone.

3. If you're looking to take Incantations, Extra Time, Gestures, etc. and have them required once only in order to "power up" rather than on each use of the Power, then you're changing the way those Limitations work -- they're no longer operating in accordance with the RAW and are likely best represented by a Limited Power Limitation (with value set on how much it's actually going to limit you, which is likely not very much at all).  For example, having to perform Gestures and Incantations at some point prior to going into battle with your Power Glove doesn't really limit you all that much -- you're best off using them as just part of the SFX of the ability (take a -0 Limitation if you need to spell it out on paper) and taking any additional Limitations as appropriate (e.g. Focus).

[Christopher R Taylor]

I was thinking a simpler solution would be a lesser version of Constant: Continuous (+¼), acts like constant, except instead of making the power act every phase, it makes the power available to act on every phase, but must be used.

 

So instead of "makes target burn automatically each phase" it now is "is able to make target of choice burn each phase but requires a new attack roll, and is optional use"

[Simon]

There's a lot of additional baggage that goes along with changing the Duration of an ability -- I wouldn't recommend creating your own rules unless you're up to speed on all of those.

[eepjr24]

This sounds a lot like Time Limit to me. The example with Claws on 6e1, 346 seems to do exactly what you are asking for unless I am missing something?

 

- E

[tombrown803]

This thing is specifically talked about in Fantasy Hero p. 288. It says to use Time Limit for how long you want the power available without having to recast the spell. You would still need to make an attack roll every phase you use it.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah time limit just makes the constant end at a certain point, it doesn't change how it behaves.

[Dr.Device]

No, Time Limit can be used on instant powers. When used on an instant power, any preparations (gestures, extra time, etc.) are done once at the beginning, and thereafter the power can be used again every phase (if desired) until the time limit expires, without going through the initial preparations again.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Makes it an advantage, yes, but that doesn't do what I am asking about though.  It just makes the power stop working at a set time.

[Hugh Neilson]

Maybe I am just obtuse, but I do not see why "time limit" is not the answer.

On 8/11/2021 at 9:52 AM, Christopher R Taylor said:

what if I want to buy an attack power that's lingering and ready to use, instead of instant, but I have to make an attack roll each phase to use?

 

I want to use the incantatations, skill rolls, etc once, and have the attack available to use each phase, but not take effect automatically each phase.  Like, say, a fist that I power up with cosmic energy and can punch harder with, but takes a phase to get ready, requires concentration and muttering a prayer to the cosmic god Quatloo.

 

 

So Cosmic Energy Fist: +xd6 Hand Attack, Extra Time (full phase), Concentration, Incantations, Time Limit.

 

You take a phase to get ready, concentrating and muttering a prayer.

 

From 6e v1 p346, you now have a Cosmic Fist that will

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“linger” and remain ready for instant activation

 

until the time limit expires.

 

 

If you want it to stick around for an hour, Time Limit will be more expensive.  Once it reaches the point that the Time Limit and all those Limitations result in a real cost greater than leaving Time Limit and all those limitations off, you chalk it up to SFX and get rid of the advantage and limitations. Or you agree with your GM that having to do all that stuff in the morning and then have the power all day is a -1/4 limitation on the power.

 

Is there some specific mechanic that this does not provide which you are looking for?  Can you articulate it?

[Christopher R Taylor]

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Maybe I am just obtuse, but I do not see why "time limit" is not the answer.

I guess I'm being obtuse because I don't see how it is.  Just because it lasts longer doesn't mean it acts the way described.  The "instant activation" means, what?  That you can turn it on and it stays on?  Or you can turn it on whenever you want to use and turn it "off" again until you want it again?

 

What if you just want a power that stays available as long as you spend END, instead of a set time limit?

[Derek Hiemforth]

6 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

Once it reaches the point that the Time Limit and all those Limitations result in a real cost greater than leaving Time Limit and all those limitations off, you chalk it up to SFX and get rid of the advantage and limitations. Or you agree with your GM that having to do all that stuff in the morning and then have the power all day is a -1/4 limitation on the power.

 

I think this is the best approach. Honestly, it sounds like many applications of this general effect would fall into the realm of "I want to get Limitations for having to do preparations at a time of my choosing, when I'm completely safe and not pressed for time, and then use the power without the restrictions of those preparations whenever I decide I need it."

 

Which is totally fine, but also seems potentially close in spirit to "I want an invisible, desolid 'focus' that I can teleport to my hand."   There's nothing wrong with that either, but the answer is to just chalk it up to SFX and not take a CP break.

 

So in the end, I think you're probably looking at either no Limitation value  (just SFX) or maybe something like Only in Alternate ID or some application of Limited Power for -¼.

[Christopher R Taylor]

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So in the end, I think you're probably looking at either no Limitation value  (just SFX) or maybe something like Only in Alternate ID or some application of Limited Power for -¼.

 

It doesn't feel anything at all like a limitation to me, it feels like a weaker version of Constant: same basic effect, but you have to deliberately target and attack (with an attack roll) each phase for it to take effect.  That's why I suggested a +¼ advantage: a quarter less than constant, to get kind of the same concept, but not as good.

[Hugh Neilson]

2 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

It doesn't feel anything at all like a limitation to me, it feels like a weaker version of Constant: same basic effect, but you have to deliberately target and attack (with an attack roll) each phase for it to take effect.  That's why I suggested a +¼ advantage: a quarter less than constant, to get kind of the same concept, but not as good.

 

The problem with both this and Time Limit is that they are less an advantage than a limitation on a limitation.  All those "I have to do this every time I want to use the power" limitations are made much less problematic by "I only have to do this once and then I can pretty much use the power whenever I want".

 

If the power has no such limitations (it's just a 12d6 Blast, say), then this is a worthless advantage - I can already Blast in each phase that I choose to, so why should I pay another 15 points for the privilege?

 

I could see allowing you to halve the various limitations in the vein of "only to activate" if that means you have to spend END every phase, whether you use the power or not, or let it shut down and have to do all those preparations again.

 

But any "advantage" on the power will be a bargain if it has a lot of limitations to fire it up, and be overpriced if it has few or none.  If it takes a minute to charge up, throughout which you have to Concentrate at 0 DCV, unaware of your surroundings, Gesturing and Incanting all the while, unable to take any other actions, the point savings from all those limitations are vastly excessive if you can slap a +1/4 advantage on the power to just activate it every morning while you're in the shower and BANG - good for the whole day.

[Duke Bushido]

What Hugh said:  I _think_ get what you want, but it doesn't come off as an advantage as much as it comes off as a very minor Limitation-- a conditional limitation of sorts: I cannot do Thing 1  unless I have met Condition 1.   Kind of like those "only works underwater" or "only in the dark."   Only in the dark is worth considerably less when you yourself control the light switch.

 

However, I have run into several instances of wanting that exact same effect, though almost exclusively in Heroic-level games, and particularly in Fantasy games where a spell must be cast ahead of time for whatever reason.  I don't think I have _ever_ allowed more than a -1/4 for this, and most commonly a -1/8  (I know: -1/8 is cooked, perhaps even well-done, but I use it regardless) _if_ I allow anything for it.  Mostly it's just a narrative tool or a special effect.  I mean, the idea that you must turn on your power to have it ready, even if you don't use it, is no more complex than the Hulk petting a cat: he still has his STR: 1,000,000 available, but he isn't using it _right this moment_ (I hope).  Or perhaps a better example would be a simple gun: you might take "charges" for a gun, but you're not going to take "must be loaded."  That's assumed.  In fact, I have never seen a gun build at a table or in print with "must be drawn" listed on the sheet.

 

For what it's worth, on those occasions when I do allow it, I treat it as an END (and in my games, most likely a "mana")-based thing:  I have to either:

 

1) pay the END for the power to turn it on, but stays available until I use or dismiss

 

or

 

2) it I have to pay 1 END (or some agreed-upon percentage of the total END cost) each Phase to until I have pre-paid the END to use it.  This one is more common amongst my Players for spiritual abilities or science gadgets, and is used a bit differently in as much as the Character may use the Power at any time, once he has set-aside enough END to use it.  If it's a 6d6 Energy Blast that uses 2 END per die, then as soon as he has "charged" 2 END, he may use 1 die of it; once he banks 8 END, he may use 4dice, etc.  Using it at any level means he must re-charge it back from zero, to include the "start charging" action.

 

The Start Charging Action:  There is an Action used to turn begin the Charging process. Precasting the spell or building the Chi or whatever the definition of pre-charging the attack means that Activating the Power not exactly the same as an Instant Power (I can't turn it on and attack with it as a single action, such as with my Heat Vision or Lightning Blasts or whatever, where activation/attack/deactivate is in fact one single action), nor is it a Zero Phase action like activating Flight or a Force Field, but instead takes a half-Phase (as the GM, if the Player really wants to get a genuine limitation from this, I prefer to see that the pre-activation takes an Attack Action for attack powers; I am less concerned about non-attack Powers, which can simply take a Half-Phase Action).

 

I haven't found anything else to be convincingly "Limitation-worthy," to be honest, and as I said: you pre-pay the END to have the power available, but that's not in itself limiting: you pay the END to use the power anyway.  You can't use the power until the END is pre-paid, but you are in charge of making that arrangement.  It takes an action, but in experience most Players use their Phase 12 at the start of combat to start the charging process for attack powers or simply narrate beginning the charging process for non-attack powers prior to combat whenever possible, and thus far, I have yet to find a Player who didn't have an alternate ability or set of abilities to get him by until the Super-Sayin maneuver finishes charging.

 

If you want a genuine limitation on it, consider an "All Power to the Engines!" build, using any of the above, but the Character is unable to do _anything_ else (save perhaps Dodge) while he is charging his power.  _That_ is significantly limiting.  

 

Pricing?  Well, that's between Player and GM, as there are a lot of variables, but consider it to be a lesser version or possibly an amalgam of lesser versions of the following book entries for guidance:

 

Extra Time (it does "waste" a single Phase, but you still get to "hold onto" the Power and use it Instantly when you find the perfect opportunity.

Material Components (it's the same sort of "I need to already have met a condition," though you are in charge of when and how that condition is met)

Costs END to Activate (though it does not cost additional END to use; you are simply pre-paying it)

 

And of course, a few others.

 

 

I have read some of your stuff, Sir, and I have no doubt that you can come up with something that has the flavor that works for you, and that has the exact in-game mechanic and story effect that you are looking for, which brings me to why I posted my own solution:

 

I don't expect you or anyone else to agree with my solution; it's just a "food for thought" sort of thing.  My example _proudly_ uses a -1/8 value for a Limitation.  This is not book legal, and there will be folks who dislike solely for that reason (though, to be fair, there will be folks who dislike it for other reasons, too, and that's cool     ).

 

My solution works _perfectly_ for me; it works perfectly for my Players; it has worked perfectly for our games for a couple of decades thus far.

 

It does not matter to me if anyone else likes it, or even if they absolutely hate it to a man; I am going to continue to be very happy with it and I am going to continue to use it.

 

 

Keep all that in mind:  you will find something that works, and you will find something that you are very happy with.  Do _not_ pin any of your perceptions of its value on the opinions of people who it will never affect anyway.  There are going to be people who don't like it for whatever reason.  So what?  They don't play at your table; why should it matter if they agree?  The only valid criticism, if you and your players are happy with it, is related to making sure the math checks out.     Find what you like and run with it.

 

 

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

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All those "I have to do this every time I want to use the power" limitations are made much less problematic by "I only have to do this once and then I can pretty much use the power whenever I want".

 

But that's true about Constant as well.  I don't get the resistance and confusion here.  Constant works in a similar way; you can just ignore it and it keeps doing its thing. You use all your limitations to start it, then walk away, and it keeps taking effect, right?  Does that negate all the limitations??

 

This is clearly not a limitation in any sense of the word, its advantageous.  I don't know why people keep talking about it being a limitation.

 

I gave several kinds of examples, let me try another one. 

 

I summon a magical floating sword that I can send out to attack a target, then change the target, or call it back.  It takes me gestures and incantations and such to summon the sword, but once its there, it is ready to use

 

RKA, Physical manifestation, right?  Except... you can't take physical manifestation unless its a constant.  You can't take uncontrolled unless its constant.  And constant just keeps hitting the target over and over until you stop paying END.

 

So what do you do to simulate this sword?  Build a super complex summon that has desolidification and affects solid?  Telekinesis holding a sword you created with Object Creation?

 

Does this make more sense of what I'm trying to cover here?  Its a concept, with broad possibilities, that I cannot find a clean and obvious way to build with Hero.  There's nothing about Time Limit that makes it do all this stuff.  It really feels like a more limited version of constant - or maybe a variant of constant, since you can pull back the effect or move it to another target.

[Grailknight]

1 hour ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

But that's true about Constant as well.  I don't get the resistance and confusion here.  Constant works in a similar way; you can just ignore it and it keeps doing its thing. You use all your limitations to start it, then walk away, and it keeps taking effect, right?  Does that negate all the limitations??

 

This is clearly not a limitation in any sense of the word, its advantageous.  I don't know why people keep talking about it being a limitation.

 

I gave several kinds of examples, let me try another one. 

 

I summon a magical floating sword that I can send out to attack a target, then change the target, or call it back.  It takes me gestures and incantations and such to summon the sword, but once its there, it is ready to use

 

RKA, Physical manifestation, right?  Except... you can't take physical manifestation unless its a constant.  You can't take uncontrolled unless its constant.  And constant just keeps hitting the target over and over until you stop paying END.

 

So what do you do to simulate this sword?  Build a super complex summon that has desolidification and affects solid?  Telekinesis holding a sword you created with Object Creation?

 

Does this make more sense of what I'm trying to cover here?  Its a concept, with broad possibilities, that I cannot find a clean and obvious way to build with Hero.  There's nothing about Time Limit that makes it do all this stuff.  It really feels like a more limited version of constant - or maybe a variant of constant, since you can pull back the effect or move it to another target.

 

Thank you for this example. With it I can give you my take on the power and what I feel you're looking for. But I freely admit that I may be wrongin my interpretation and/or it may not work for you.

 

You describe an Attack Power that you can prepare and then assign to a target in a manner close to the RAW effects of Constant. .

 

The preparations can be many things but they have one thing in common. They are Limitations on the Power and always will be because normally you don't have to do these things to use a Power. Gestures and Incantations have reduced value if they have to be used to maintain rather than just activate a Constant power and Extra Time is a lesser value if only required for the power's first use. So if you want to lessen the benefit of these Limitations , you don't need to reinvent the wheel, RAW has you mostly covered and you can modify it to fit the edges. But one thing that isn't true, none of those Limitations (except DoT clicking at every 6  hours or longer) let's you fire and forget. It takes an Advantage to do that.

 

As for the lasting effect of the power, there are several ways to do this. Continuing Charges  will work.  Time Limit(Advantage) + Constant is another solution. As is Damage over Time. But I don't think any of these precisely fits wat you are looking for and I interpret that in two parts.

 

One, you feel that the Limitations on the Power do too much to offset the cost of the Advantages. I think Duke Bushido covered that pretty well. I have only one thing to add, those Limitations don't affect the Active Points of the construct in question. We just had a discussion about Active Points in another thread.

 

Or two, and this is more speculative, you want some way limit ability of Constant Powers to affect multiple targets. For this I'd suggest a custom modifier to Constant (Technically it's a Custom Limitation that behaves like Constant except..) - Only one instance at a time. This will let you fire your Power at one target and later move it to another(1/2 Phase Action?) but not have one attacking each opponent you can afford the END for. 

 

Hope this helps. If I'm way off base give me another example and I'll try a different angle if I can or explain my reasoning if I can't.

[Simon]

The problem that OP is running into is mainly one of definition.  Fundamentally, he's looking to have various setup/activation Limitations on an ability...but not have them be quite as Limiting as they are by default (e.g. they're not required every time the ability is used).  As has been stated in multiple ways by multiple people in this thread, there are a number of perfectly rules-legal ways to approach this idea....what you do NOT need to do is start creating your own rules.  You also do not need to alter the duration of the ability in question, since that is explicitly not what you're after for an effect.

 

Easiest (IMO):  based on how often the character needs to go through the setup/activation process for the ability, reduce the net Limitation for all of the activation process (e.g. Incantations, Gestures, Extra Time, etc.) based on how much the character is limited.  Use Conditional Power or Limited Power instead of the individual setup limitations.  The value for the Limited Power Limitation may be -0...or could be up to -1/2 or -1, depending on how Limiting it is to the character.  If it's something that the character needs to do when they wake up in the morning and then the ability/abilities are ready for the day, then it's likely just flavor and worth -0.  If it's something that the character needs to do within 5 minutes of using the ability and is time-prohibitive to perform in active combat, then you could be looking at up to a -1 depending on GM input.

 

Invoking some slightly tweaked rules from the supplements, you get another perfectly viable option:  Time Limit.  As with Differing Modifiers, OP is not understanding the intent of the Modifier here....in particular the implication of applying Time Limit on an Instant Power.  This has been established by Steve and is intended for precisely what has been described. My main hesitation with using this approach is that it increases the Active Cost of the ability without actually providing any Advantage to the ability itself (again, we're not looking to Advantage the ability, we're looking to lessen the Limitation(s)).

 

Others have proposed equally valid ways to approach it -- pick whatever works best for your taste/flavor....just try to avoid creating or altering core rules when there's no need to do so (and apparent lack of understanding/misunderstanding of the rules being modified).

 

[Duke Bushido]

2 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

 

Does this make more sense of what I'm trying to cover here?  Its a concept, with broad possibilities, that I cannot find a clean and obvious way to build with Hero.  There's nothing about Time Limit that makes it do all this stuff.  It really feels like a more limited version of constant - or maybe a variant of constant, since you can pull back the effect or move it to another target.

 

 

I fully admit that I may have misread something vital in the description of what it is that you are trying to achieve.  Accordingly, at some point when I am home this weekend, I will give a less sleep-deprived re-read.  If I gain a better understanding of your goal, I will be happy to try again. 

 

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

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Fundamentally, he's looking to have various setup/activation Limitations on an ability...but not have them be quite as Limiting as they are by default (e.g. they're not required every time the ability is used). 

 

I don't understand.  How is that less true about a Constant power?  Is that an attempt to avoid the setup/activation abilities?

[Simon]

Just now, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

I don't understand.  How is that less true about a Constant power?  Is that an attempt to avoid the setup/activation abilities?

What you've described is wanting to have an Instant Power (e.g. Blast) with setup/activation Limitation that do not apply every time the ability is used -- the ability can be setup and "readied" (going through the appropriate steps dictated by the various Limitations) and then used at will for some time thereafter.

 

That is NOT a Constant Power...and has nothing to do with a Constant Power.  It's an Instant Power with a variation of the setup/activation Modifiers.

 

There are very well-established rules for setup/activation Modifiers on Constant Powers -- variations that allow them to only apply to the initial activation, or to have them apply throughout the Power's use.  That's not what you're after, from the sound of things...since you're not dealing with Constant Powers and don't want to change the Instant Powers to Constant Powers (since that brings along a LOT of additional rules....some of which you've stated you do not want to have).

So stop thinking about changing the Power's duration -- you're not looking to do that.

[Christopher R Taylor]

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What you've described is wanting to have an Instant Power (e.g. Blast) with setup/activation Limitation that do not apply every time the ability is used

 

But how is that different than constant?  I use an instant power (e.g. Blast) with setup/limitations that do not apply every time the ability is used.  You get it for free every phase as long as you continue spending END, right?  What's the difference here, except being able to change targets or refrain from attacking?  Help me understand here.

 

I am not trying to find a cheat code or way to bypass limitations.  I am trying to simulate any one of the various examples I gave above, trying to use the rules to simulate a concept.  Please stop assuming I am trying to be sneaky or break the rules.

[Simon]

Just now, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

But how is that different than constant?  I use an instant power (e.g. Blast) with setup/limitations that do not apply every time the ability is used.  You get it for free every phase as long as you continue spending END, right?  What's the difference here, except being able to change targets or refrain from attacking?  Help me understand here.

 

I am not trying to find a cheat code or way to bypass limitations.  I am trying to simulate any one of the various examples I gave above, trying to use the rules to simulate a concept.  Please stop assuming I am trying to be sneaky or break the rules.

Are you looking to spend END every Phase that the Power has been activated (regardless of use)?  So go through the activation routine (whatever that entails -- Incantations, Gestures, Extra Time, Activation Roll, etc.)...and then spend END regardless of whether you actually use the ability or not.  Don't spend END? The ability goes down and you need to go through all of the activation routine again.  If that's what you're after, that is new...or something that I've missed...and fundamentally changes the conversation (the importance of being clear in what you're after).  We can get into how to best approach this concept once you confirm that it's what you're after.

 

If you're not after the above but looking for something that you can activate (go through all the steps needed) and then just sit on until you need it (or some time limit elapses) then all of the above answers apply -- you're not looking to change or alter the duration of the Power in any way, shape, or form -- you're only changing the behavior of the Limitations on the Power.

[Christopher R Taylor]

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you're not looking to change or alter the duration of the Power in any way, shape, or form -- you're only changing the behavior of the Limitations on the Power.

 

I mean.... I guess there are only so many times its worth trying.

 

I guess I'm done here

[Grailknight]

On 8/12/2021 at 1:32 PM, Christopher R Taylor said:

I was thinking a simpler solution would be a lesser version of Constant: Continuous (+¼), acts like constant, except instead of making the power act every phase, it makes the power available to act on every phase, but must be used.

 

So instead of "makes target burn automatically each phase" it now is "is able to make target of choice burn each phase but requires a new attack roll, and is optional use"

 

Ok, upon rereading the entire thread, this comment stands out to me now.

 

Stop overthinking everything.

 

A Power that affects a target of choice each phase while requiring a new attack roll  is the fundamental way every Instant Attack Power in the game functions by RAW. 

 

Any Modifiers you add to that Power are just that: Modifiers. If you chose some procedure that has to be done each time you use the Power, then that's one set of Modifiers which is a different set of Modifiers  than if you do the procedure only once and can use the Power for a set time and another than needing the procedure and having to pay END or Concentrate  or whatever to keep using the Power without repeating the startup.

 

KISS is areal thing, and you're making your creation process unnecessarily hard here.