Is Duplication balanced vs Summon?

[Hugh Neilson]

On 8/31/2021 at 6:04 PM, unclevlad said:

If you're not taking Amicable and trying to force the critter to fight, I'm giving the critter a major bonus on its Ego roll.

 

And let's recognize something.  The EGO vs EGO roll, the summoner is at -1 per 10 active points in the Summon...so even a 200 point Summon it's -4.   So that first +1/4 from Amicable is buying quite a bit, even if it's only negating that initial roll.

 

Summon, perhaps more than most powers, is wildly variable, depending on what gets allowed.  I'd rather start with narrower restrictions.  You want it to fight for you?  Pay for it.

 

What are they paying that initial 40 points for?  They could have had an 8 DC attack, +15/+15 defense, 10 resistant. +4 SPD or +4 OCV and +4 DCV.

 

I would suggest the creature's willingness to fight is both campaign-dependant and creature-dependent.  If you encountered this creature in a normal encounter, would it be similarly reluctant to engage in combat? Under this model, I think I would use Summon (if I used it at all) to Summon skill monkeys, transport, beasts of burden or similar, since you seem determined that the power not be useful for combat.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I agree that the structure of Summon makes it awkward at best to use and suspect that the writers of Hero never actually used the power to test it out in practical play.  Yes, they're trying to keep it from being overpowered, but I think that they might have gone a bit overboard in that goal.

 

Possibly the best way to judge Summon would be against Mind Control because it gives roughly equivalent effect: an independently acting force carrying out orders.  Is the same level of point cost giving you roughly the same equivalent value in and out of combat?

[Grailknight]

4 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

I agree that the structure of Summon makes it awkward at best to use and suspect that the writers of Hero never actually used the power to test it out in practical play.  Yes, they're trying to keep it from being overpowered, but I think that they might have gone a bit overboard in that goal.

 

Possibly the best way to judge Summon would be against Mind Control because it gives roughly equivalent effect: an independently acting force carrying out orders.  Is the same level of point cost giving you roughly the same equivalent value in and out of combat?

 

I would say that it is more strongly flavored to the Fantasy Hero genre and more to classic Tolkien derived fantasy at that. Even the description text leans more toward the fantasy feel and it's definitely more common there. 

 

In more supers related settings the drawbacks of Summon are greatly downplayed or ignored. The monster hordes are mindless or don't think of rebelling unless that are being slaughtered in job lots. Summon is much more common in sentai shows and anime but those don't usually follow the same western tropes as pertains to creature loyalty. This genre is also big on Duplication and Multiform. Summons in this genre probably start off at +1/2 Amicable and go from there. 

[Christopher R Taylor]

I've toyed with the idea of a summons based superhero, the special effects would be easy enough to come up with, but the problem is that initial lag before you get anything to take action.  The whole "OK now don't hit me for a phase" bit is a problem

[Hugh Neilson]

I keep telling myself I will make that insect-based character who can Summon swarms of bugs some day...

[Jhamin]

The biggest problem I have with Duplication vs Summon is the way the two overlap, specifically "Disposable Duplicates" are crazy expensive and you have to do a lot of gyrations for them to work despite being relatively common in fiction.

 

By "Disposable Duplicates" I am referring to duplicates that in theory are just as powerful duplicates of the original but in practice are treated like mooks that the opponents plow through like they were nothing.  These are normally more or less identical to the original which makes them feel like duplicates but the original isn't actually harmed when they are killed and can just keep making more of them.  The fact that they are easily plowed through by the opposition and can die without anyone feeling bad about it makes it seem like a summon with lower def/stun/body than the original.  They sort of exist in this no man's land between Duplication and Summon.

 

Examples:

- Ultron's army in Avengers: Age of Ultron 

- the various Clone Jutsu from Naruto

- The Monkey King in some tellings of his story

 

So they sorta work like Summons rather than duplicates, but the fact they don't come from somewhere else, are totally loyal (they usually think of themselves as the same as the original), and are more or less identical to the original makes them feel like they should be duplicates.  The way to actually buy these characters "the hero way" is via Summon, usually with lots of loyalty advantages piled on.  Duplication just doesn't work the way these characters do in the fiction.

 

I'm a Hero gamer of many years and I am all about Special effect, but it bothers me that when someone makes a list of fictional characters that duplicate themselves Hero would tell you to buy about half of them with a summon & a ton of modifiers instead of using the Duplication power.  At minimum I feel like that is a failure in naming.

 

[dmjalund]

1 hour ago, Hugh Neilson said:

I keep telling myself I will make that insect-based character who can Summon swarms of bugs some day...

A swarm would probably be better served as a continuous area affect attack rather than a summon

[unclevlad]

18 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

I agree that the structure of Summon makes it awkward at best to use and suspect that the writers of Hero never actually used the power to test it out in practical play.  Yes, they're trying to keep it from being overpowered, but I think that they might have gone a bit overboard in that goal.

 

Possibly the best way to judge Summon would be against Mind Control because it gives roughly equivalent effect: an independently acting force carrying out orders.  Is the same level of point cost giving you roughly the same equivalent value in and out of combat?

 

Some of the messiness comes, IMO, from trying to make Hero a universal system, when different genres have incompatible assumptions.

 

It also doesn't help that Summon demands so much interpretation.  When you try to nail down interpretation to hard-core mechanics, you usually have issues.

 

The difference WRT Mind Control is, you're converting an opponent into at least a temporary ally.  So, yeah, in a sense, Summon and Mind Control share the aspect of increasing my side's action count, Mind Control does it while simultaneously decreasing the other side's action count.

 

4 minutes ago, Jhamin said:

The biggest problem I have with Duplication vs Summon is the way the two overlap, "Disposable Duplicates" are crazy expensive despite being relatively common in fiction.

 

By "Disposable Duplicates" I am referring to duplicates that in theory are just as powerful as the original but in practice are treated like mooks that the opponents plow through like they were nothing.  These are normally more or less identical to the original which makes them feel like duplicates but the original isn't actually harmed when they are killed and can just keep making more of them. 

 

 

Because the writers don't care about quantitative aspects, they're only working the narrative ones.  This runs afoul of a fundamental premise in how Duplication's evaluated...duplicates are not intended to be throwaway.  It makes for easier narrative, tho, to ignore this, and hand-wave.  These really are better modeled as Summons...but then you run afoul of the tropes tied to it, like number of tasks and willingness to cooperate.  

 

Plus you get the weird interpretations that are even in the book.  Is an astral form really duplication, when the base form becomes incapacitated?  Is a 9-headed hydra Duplication, or SFX of a really nice form of Multiple Attack?  Telekinetic Sidekicks gives you a basis to say "I maintain my own built-in work gang"...it's practically just acting as a SPD boost.  (Or alternately, it's a lot like clairsentience...send in a dozen separate scouts to report.)

 

So...yeah, especially when you look at what's on the sidebar (6E1 page 204) the distinction between Duplication and Summon is pretty darn vague.

 

[Jhamin]

17 minutes ago, unclevlad said:

Because the writers don't care about quantitative aspects, they're only working the narrative ones.  This runs afoul of a fundamental premise in how Duplication's evaluated...duplicates are not intended to be throwaway.  It makes for easier narrative, tho, to ignore this, and hand-wave.  These really are better modeled as Summons...but then you run afoul of the tropes tied to it, like number of tasks and willingness to cooperate. 

 

 

Throwaway duplicates are really, really common in various Genre's of fiction that feel like they should be right up Hero's alley.  They are arguably more common that persistent duplicates.  If the duplication power doesn't handle them well I think that's a problem.

I have long had a belief that Summon and duplication should either be merged into one power with modifiers to better simulate a wizard summoning a demon vs triple-body-boy's powers or Duplication needs an overhaul that allow Ultron to keep making more bodies to copy his mind into without losing character points every time Thor kills one (as he can just make more)

 

Sure, narrative need and game logic aren't always in sync, but if Hero doesn't simulate heroic fiction what are we even doing here?

 

[Nekkidcarpenter]

17 minutes ago, unclevlad said:

Telekinetic Sidekicks gives you a basis to say "I maintain my own built-in work gang"...it's practically just acting as a SPD boost.  (Or alternately, it's a lot like clairsentience...send in a dozen separate scouts to report.)

This is my go to power to simulate Duplication.  Physical manifestation of TK plus alterable origin point for sense groups.

[specks]

It seems like summons and duplication are more like special effects than straight powers. Doc Democracy built a character named Madding Crowd w/o using the duplication power and instead used it as a special effect. Some ideas:

 

Clairsentience = Summon a bunch of people to look around (as above)

Density Increase = A bunch of duplicates on top of someone

EB w/ Area Effect = Attack a bunch of foes with dozens of duplicates

 

You get the idea. The Madding Crowd character is in the download misc section so take a look.

[unclevlad]

12 minutes ago, Jhamin said:

I have long had a belief that Summon and duplication should either be merged into one power with modifiers to better simulate a wizard summoning a demon vs triple-body-boy's powers or Duplication needs an overhaul that allow Ultron to keep making more bodies to copy his mind into without losing character points every time Thor kills one (as he can just make more)

 

I think it's doable that way but not given how 6E approaches powers.  Summon is Instant, Costs END;  Duplication is Persistent, no END.  Summon is a Standard power;  Duplication is a Special power.  There are implications there that need resolution, particularly the Instant vs. Persistent angle.

[Jhamin]

4 minutes ago, unclevlad said:

I think it's doable that way but not given how 6E approaches powers.  Summon is Instant, Costs END;  Duplication is Persistent, no END.  Summon is a Standard power;  Duplication is a Special power.  There are implications there that need resolution, particularly the Instant vs. Persistent angle.

 

That is exactly my point.  These two powers are related but different in a lot of their details, however those details aren't actually helping us use them to simulate what is actually going on in the fiction we are trying to simulate.  

If it took multiple advantages & disadvantages to use blast to simulate Cyclops' eye beam or Flight to simulate Superman's power... then those powers might have a problem. 

 

I think Summon works fine when you want to call up a Demon and Duplication is fine for Triplicate Girl but when Monkey King wants to call up a dozen of himself to fight and if they get killed can just call up a dozen more then the current rules structure makes that overly complex.... because we end up using a bunch of mods to force one power to work like another.

It is messy, it is expensive, and it is more about system stuff (persistant/nonpersistant, standard power/special power) than about anything the characters are actually doing.

[Greywind]

13 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

I've toyed with the idea of a summons based superhero, the special effects would be easy enough to come up with, but the problem is that initial lag before you get anything to take action.  The whole "OK now don't hit me for a phase" bit is a problem

 

Have you tried not standing out in the open when you do it?

[unclevlad]

1 minute ago, Greywind said:

 

Have you tried not standing out in the open when you do it?

 

It's not about you getting hit...it's the Summoned critter.  Granted, Duplication has the same problem.  I think, tho, we anticipate popping the dupe out pre-engagement, while Summon (by a PC) tends to be post-engagement because they won't stick around in the same way.  (And popping a dupe while engaged risks permanent CP loss, unless the dupes have resurrection.)

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

 

So, yeah, in a sense, Summon and Mind Control share the aspect of increasing my side's action count, Mind Control does it while simultaneously decreasing the other side's action count.

 

 

Yeah the analogy isn't exact but I think its a good starting point for crunching numbers and working on builds.  Of course, as I noted a while back, Mind Control has its issues, primarily being the "its nearly impossible to get people to forget you did this" aspect, so much so that its pretty much only usable by villains who do't have to worry about point totals and active cost caps.

 

Quote

Doc Democracy built a character named Madding Crowd w/o using the duplication power and instead used it as a special effect.

 

Sure, that's the kind of stuff you do when you build a character around one power concept.  LIke how a speedster buys teleport and flying (to run on walls) etc.  But they still buy running really fast and high Speed.  The fact that you can simulate aspects of buying duplicates doesn't negate the idea of using duplicates and trying to represent what you see in the source material.

[Hugh Neilson]

6 hours ago, dmjalund said:

A swarm would probably be better served as a continuous area affect attack rather than a summon

 

Not if you want to have multiple swarms acting independently.  It all depends on the effect you're looking for.

[Grailknight]

8 hours ago, Jhamin said:

The biggest problem I have with Duplication vs Summon is the way the two overlap, specifically "Disposable Duplicates" are crazy expensive and you have to do a lot of gyrations for them to work despite being relatively common in fiction.

 

By "Disposable Duplicates" I am referring to duplicates that in theory are just as powerful duplicates of the original but in practice are treated like mooks that the opponents plow through like they were nothing.  These are normally more or less identical to the original which makes them feel like duplicates but the original isn't actually harmed when they are killed and can just keep making more of them.  The fact that they are easily plowed through by the opposition and can die without anyone feeling bad about it makes it seem like a summon with lower def/stun/body than the original.  They sort of exist in this no man's land between Duplication and Summon.

 

Examples:

- Ultron's army in Avengers: Age of Ultron 

- the various Clone Jutsu from Naruto

- The Monkey King in some tellings of his story

 

So they sorta work like Summons rather than duplicates, but the fact they don't come from somewhere else, are totally loyal (they usually think of themselves as the same as the original), and are more or less identical to the original makes them feel like they should be duplicates.  The way to actually buy these characters "the hero way" is via Summon, usually with lots of loyalty advantages piled on.  Duplication just doesn't work the way these characters do in the fiction.

 

I'm a Hero gamer of many years and I am all about Special effect, but it bothers me that when someone makes a list of fictional characters that duplicate themselves Hero would tell you to buy about half of them with a summon & a ton of modifiers instead of using the Duplication power.  At minimum I feel like that is a failure in naming.

 

 

Duplication works just fine if you take away the permanent character points flaw. Making all the duplicates slightly weaker by requiring Regeneration from Death be bought on them doesn't cripple the power and does provide some penalty for replacing them. 

 

Summon is more problematic. First off, it really needs to be a Special Power or else those expanded class advantages are meaningless.

 

Secondly, the current first two levels of Amicable and the first level of Antagonistic need to be dropped. They don't really simulate the genre well. It may seem too powerful but if you can't put the Summon in a Framework, this is going to either be your schtick or some something that's going to require a bunch of Limitations to have alongside your other Powers. Possible, yes but GM approved combat usable version, unlikely.

[archer]

On 9/1/2021 at 10:45 AM, Greywind said:

Summon brings in minions of some flavor.

 

 

 

I've not tasted enough minions to even be able to determine their flavor palate.

[unclevlad]

16 hours ago, Grailknight said:

Summon is more problematic. First off, it really needs to be a Special Power or else those expanded class advantages are meaningless.

 

Secondly, the current first two levels of Amicable and the first level of Antagonistic need to be dropped. They don't really simulate the genre well. It may seem too powerful but if you can't put the Summon in a Framework, this is going to either be your schtick or some something that's going to require a bunch of Limitations to have alongside your other Powers. Possible, yes but GM approved combat usable version, unlikely.

 

But if Summon is a Special Power, it can't be used in a framework.  This isn't an issue, IMO, for Champions, but it is for Fantasy Hero.  Different genre conventions and expectations.  I'm still largely of the opinion that trying to make the system applicable to ANY genre is an exercise in futility, and this may be a good example.  YMMV on that.

 

For supers...yeah, your suggestions sound plausible.  It might be necessary to look at Altered Duplicates, if the cost of Amicable's remaining levels changes, but this might be tricky.  IMO some things, like the resurrection regen on the duplicates only, should count.  If you're doing energy construct-type duplicates, then you really want to use automaton rules IMO, and this clearly involves major restructuring.  But, of course, this becomes massively subjective...and may well be better bought with Summon.

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Seems like redefining or tweaking amicability works better than just dumping big sections of it.  For example, instead of automatic success and limited tasks, lower the Battle of Wills penalty, for example.  Or make the stunned phase go away.

[Grailknight]

23 hours ago, unclevlad said:

 

But if Summon is a Special Power, it can't be used in a framework.  This isn't an issue, IMO, for Champions, but it is for Fantasy Hero.  Different genre conventions and expectations.  I'm still largely of the opinion that trying to make the system applicable to ANY genre is an exercise in futility, and this may be a good example.  YMMV on that.

 

For supers...yeah, your suggestions sound plausible.  It might be necessary to look at Altered Duplicates, if the cost of Amicable's remaining levels changes, but this might be tricky.  IMO some things, like the resurrection regen on the duplicates only, should count.  If you're doing energy construct-type duplicates, then you really want to use automaton rules IMO, and this clearly involves major restructuring.  But, of course, this becomes massively subjective...and may well be better bought with Summon.

 

 

The Framework issue is better handled as GM permission on a Special Power than as GM forbiddance on a Standard Power. As a Gm you'll scrutinize both the same but as a player the psychology just seems to work differently.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

The Framework issue is better handled as GM permission on a Special Power than as GM forbiddance on a Standard Power. 

 

I agree, you can use the "only standard power" bit as a guideline for simplicity or as a new GM but as you get used to the rules and play, it should be disregarded and instead GMs should decide in a case-by-case basis.

[unclevlad]

I don't disagree with that, but I would suggest treating it as a Caution sign.  It's very easy to abuse.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Well I think all rules should be treated the same: follow these but allow for exceptions with good reason.  I used to complain about the rules and patterns and everything in music to my mom and she frustratingly, but wisely, taught me that we have to learn and follow the rules until we learn enough to start breaking them.