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Crayon

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So i have asked a few questions on here already and i have some more. i will be the GM and my group started their characters tonight (didnt finish). we have really no idea what they should have for characters and where to go with it. i also have no idea where to start with making a campaign. we were skimming through through the BR but are still lost. its going to be a heroic campaign in modern of a group of “heroes” that fight crime (bank robberies, muggings, etc.)

 

another question would be, what do people generally have for characteristic level limits? like what is the highest you will allow STR or END in a heroic playthrough? 

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Making a campaign can be a bit daunting in any system. There are a ton of books with advice out there, and I'll try to my best to offer my own. 

 

To begin with, you should figure out what genre would you like to run. This is often a great question to the group, and to yourself. You mentioned a modern game. Are you thinking of something high action, akin to movies like The Fast & The Furious or John Wick? Or maybe something more espionage and spy based like James Bond, Jason Bourne, or Mission Impossible? Perhaps something more Urban Fantasy, mixing magic and modern concepts together as seen in The Magicians or The Dresden Files? Maybe something a bit darker, wandering into the genre of horror as seen in The Conjuring or Underworld? And, of course, superheroes are also modern, with so many examples its hard to list.

 

Once you have an idea of what kind of game you and your group are interested in, you should figure out how the rules apply to that kind of game. There are several books published for 5th Edition that can be adapted to 6th Edition pretty easily. For example, Urban Fantasy Hero offers some advice for running games in the genre and could be invaluable to someone planning such a game. The same could be said about Dark Champions for a more action oriented game. Within these books are character guidelines and package deals that will help with character generation. As Gamemaster, you should decide what kind of adventure you'd like to run. Is it a heist, where the players have to steal something? Or maybe they've been hired to protect someone or something? Or maybe they're a smash and grab team hired to teach a lesson?

 

As players build their characters, they'll also choose Complications, which will help define who their characters are, as well as giving some hints on what type of story they'd like their character to be in. Hunted, in particular, is a great starting point for some characters. Maybe that spy is hunted by an old enemy? Or the Urban Mage is hunted by a spirit they once crossed? Though they shouldn't be used directly all of the time, a Hunted can provide occasional issues and adventure potential. For example, the old enemy of the spy now runs a merc company with deep contacts. During one adventure, the players encounter a pair of assassins seemingly acting on their own until it's revealed otherwise. I always recommend playing a few one-off adventures at first so you and the players can get used to the game and experiment with the rules. 

 

Hope this helps, Crayon. Welcome to the game and let us know how things go.

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For the first 6 Stats the normal human maximum is actually 20.  Between 21-30 is considered Legendary and above 30 is considered to be Superhuman.  The rest of the stats have similar definitions.  In a heroic level game it is common to charge double for anything over normal human maximum and forbid anything considered superhuman.     

 

So while a 30 is theoretically within the realm of human it represents they absolute best a human could achieve.  Sherlock Homes would be a good example of a character with a 30 INT.  A 30 STR would be for some of Arnold Schwarzenegger movie characters.  Arnolds STR in real life would be a lot less even at his peak. 

 

One thing to consider when building characters is that a lot of what people are able to achieve in real life is because of a combination of stats and skills.  Someone who is really good at HTH combat is going to have martial arts and skill levels to back up their stats.  They are not going to rely on just raw stats. 

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@Crayon although Lonewolf posted technically correct information, I wouldn’t worry about it. Do not worry about what is normal human limit. Why? Because you are creating heroes and it’s no fun to have certain characteristics that within the benchmarks. Trust me, I’ve done it. Benchmark might be 13 CON but trust me I wouldn’t have less than an 18 CON.  STR I see the range of 15-23.  Also Lonewolf mentioned that some games make you pay double cost past a certain level. That’s called Characteristica Maxima which has confused many a long time gamer on these boards. Iirc BH doesn’t address this at all and if it did it is optional. Again don’t worry about it. The martial arts maneuvers presented in BH aren’t terribly complex. They are really just advanced versions of the Standard Maneuvers. 

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Its going to depend a lot on what kind of game you run (will it be super realistic, or James Bond, or even Bollywood?) what characteristics you expect from a character or what the campaign might limit.  I'll give you some basic information on characteristics here from my experience as a GM and the game as it is played over 40 years:

 

First off, the first six or "primary" characteristics.

 

-Strength (STR) is what you think it is: raw muscle power, lifting capacity, how much damage you’ll do to something when you strike it, and so on.  The average normal person has around 8 STR, the starting level for heroes is 10.  23 is realistic human maximum, the most anyone in history has achieved.  This pattern is the same for every one of the "primary" Characteristics.

 

-Dexterity (DEX) is also what you think it is: quickness, agility, and balance.

-Constitution (CON) is a measure of a character’s general health and resilience.

-Intelligence (INT) is what you think it is: reasoning ability, recall, and general brainpower. It also affects Perception; how likely your character is to notice something important.

-Ego (EGO) is strength of will and mental toughness.  It also represents how your character responds when attacked by a Mental Power like Telepathy or Mind Control.

-Presence (PRE) is a character’s ability to keep their cool when the people around them begin to panic. It also represents how well your character can impress, inspire, and even intimidate other characters.

 

For these stats, consider 5 to be feeble, 13 to be athletic or talented (high school athlete), 18 to be very athletic and talented (olympic level ability), and anything 20 or higher to be incredibly remarkable in a normal human.

Now for the other 11 "secondary" characteristics.  These get even more subjective because of their nature.

 

The "secondary" characteristics each vary in their values:

 

-OCV, DCV, OMCV, DMCV start at base 3.  These represent how well a character attacks or defends from attack, avoiding a hit.  MCV is mental combat (mind control, telepathy), CV is just regular fighting (guns, fists).  This starts at base 3 and while humans can achieve remarkable levels of OCV, most of that is represented by reducing range levels and special maneuvers.  Base CV shouldn't be higher than 6 in most normal person, so that a regular person has a reasonable chance to hit the PCs, even if small.  Because of the bell curve and the way CVs work with a 3d6 roll anything higher than that moves into the nearly automatic hit or miss category on normals.

 

-Physical Defense (PD) and Energy Defense (ED) represent how resistant your character is to taking damage from physical and energy attacks, respectively. In Hero, a successful attack is applied to the character’s defenses before determining how much damage is taken. The higher the PD or ED, the less damage the character takes.  Base 2 is normal for all characters for PD and ED, and a normal human probably won't get past 8 in either.

 

-Speed (SPD) is a measure of how often a character acts in combat. Each combat Turn is divided into twelve Segments; the SPD score determines how many (and which) of those Segments a character acts on. Speed is really expensive.  Again, the base is 2 and normal humans with extreme skill and agility won't get past 4 very often, and probably never exceed 5.

 

-Recovery (REC) represents how quickly a character recovers when they are knocked out or exhausted. The REC score is added to the character’s STUN and END whenever the character takes a Segment to recover.  This is base 4, and its hard to quantify in the real world but 8 is probably a good guide for what normal humans won't ever exceed

 

-Endurance (END) is a measure of how long a character can continue to act before becoming exhausted. Whenever a character uses Strength or a ability such as running, they expend END. When a character runs out of END, they must rest (recover) to get back into the fight.  Everyone starts at 20 END, and again this is tough to quantify, but probably 50 is the most a normal human will reach.

 

-Body (BODY) is one of the two kinds of ‘hit points’ in Hero. It represents serious, long-term damage--how much punishment a character can take before they (begin to) die.  Normal humans start at a base 10, and since Body is determined by physical structure and willpower its easier to quantify, but 23 is probably normal human maximum

 

-Stun (STUN) is the other type of ‘hit points’ in Hero; it represents how much damage a character can take before being knocked unconscious. In many games, characters will rarely take BODY damage after defenses are applied, but characters will take STUN damage all the time.  Like END, the base is 20 and probably 50 is the maximum a normal human might reach.

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I apologize for the length of the previous post, but this board likes to merge posts; it was supposed to be 2 separate ones to spare eyeballs.

 

There are some non-characteristic but basic abilities all characters share as well:

 

-Running: 12m per phase is base.  The fastest recorded human being on earth (Usain Bolt) ran about 24m per phase as a guesstimate, so 25 should probably be the most you'd expect a normal human to move.

-Swimming: 4m per phase is base.  The fastest recorded human being swimming (Tom Jager) without special equipment hit around 9m, so 10 should probably be around the max possible for a normal human being.

-Leaping: This starts at 4m with a run.  The longest recorded human jump is just under 9m (Juan Miguel Echevarria) so 10m is probably the most its reasonable to believe a normal human being could manage (with wind assistance).

 

That gives you some real-world benchmarks to consider.  Obvious all this is subject to some interpretation and GM decision, but this is what is generally used in Hero over the years.

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11 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Its going to depend a lot on what kind of game you run (will it be super realistic, or James Bond, or even Bollywood?) what characteristics you expect from a character or what the campaign might limit.  I'll give you some basic information on characteristics here from my experience as a GM and the game as it is played over 40 years:

 

First off, the first six or "primary" characteristics.

 

-Strength (STR) is what you think it is: raw muscle power, lifting capacity, how much damage you’ll do to something when you strike it, and so on.  The average normal person has around 8 STR, the starting level for heroes is 10.  23 is realistic human maximum, the most anyone in history has achieved.  This pattern is the same for every one of the "primary" Characteristics.

 

-Dexterity (DEX) is also what you think it is: quickness, agility, and balance.

-Constitution (CON) is a measure of a character’s general health and resilience.

-Intelligence (INT) is what you think it is: reasoning ability, recall, and general brainpower. It also affects Perception; how likely your character is to notice something important.

-Ego (EGO) is strength of will and mental toughness.  It also represents how your character responds when attacked by a Mental Power like Telepathy or Mind Control.

-Presence (PRE) is a character’s ability to keep their cool when the people around them begin to panic. It also represents how well your character can impress, inspire, and even intimidate other characters.

 

For these stats, consider 5 to be feeble, 13 to be athletic or talented (high school athlete), 18 to be very athletic and talented (olympic level ability), and anything 20 or higher to be incredibly remarkable in a normal human.

Now for the other 11 "secondary" characteristics.  These get even more subjective because of their nature.

 

The "secondary" characteristics each vary in their values:

 

-OCV, DCV, OMCV, DMCV start at base 3.  These represent how well a character attacks or defends from attack, avoiding a hit.  MCV is mental combat (mind control, telepathy), CV is just regular fighting (guns, fists).  This starts at base 3 and while humans can achieve remarkable levels of OCV, most of that is represented by reducing range levels and special maneuvers.  Base CV shouldn't be higher than 6 in most normal person, so that a regular person has a reasonable chance to hit the PCs, even if small.  Because of the bell curve and the way CVs work with a 3d6 roll anything higher than that moves into the nearly automatic hit or miss category on normals.

 

-Physical Defense (PD) and Energy Defense (ED) represent how resistant your character is to taking damage from physical and energy attacks, respectively. In Hero, a successful attack is applied to the character’s defenses before determining how much damage is taken. The higher the PD or ED, the less damage the character takes.  Base 2 is normal for all characters for PD and ED, and a normal human probably won't get past 8 in either.

 

-Speed (SPD) is a measure of how often a character acts in combat. Each combat Turn is divided into twelve Segments; the SPD score determines how many (and which) of those Segments a character acts on. Speed is really expensive.  Again, the base is 2 and normal humans with extreme skill and agility won't get past 4 very often, and probably never exceed 5.

 

-Recovery (REC) represents how quickly a character recovers when they are knocked out or exhausted. The REC score is added to the character’s STUN and END whenever the character takes a Segment to recover.  This is base 4, and its hard to quantify in the real world but 8 is probably a good guide for what normal humans won't ever exceed

 

-Endurance (END) is a measure of how long a character can continue to act before becoming exhausted. Whenever a character uses Strength or a ability such as running, they expend END. When a character runs out of END, they must rest (recover) to get back into the fight.  Everyone starts at 20 END, and again this is tough to quantify, but probably 50 is the most a normal human will reach.

 

-Body (BODY) is one of the two kinds of ‘hit points’ in Hero. It represents serious, long-term damage--how much punishment a character can take before they (begin to) die.  Normal humans start at a base 10, and since Body is determined by physical structure and willpower its easier to quantify, but 23 is probably normal human maximum

 

-Stun (STUN) is the other type of ‘hit points’ in Hero; it represents how much damage a character can take before being knocked unconscious. In many games, characters will rarely take BODY damage after defenses are applied, but characters will take STUN damage all the time.  Like END, the base is 20 and probably 50 is the maximum a normal human might reach.

Ok this helps a ton. Another question that your comment opened up is about how the phases work. I was trying to understand it in the BR but im still lost.

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1 hour ago, Crayon said:

Ok this helps a ton. Another question that your comment opened up is about how the phases work. I was trying to understand it in the BR but im still lost.

In the way older books, Phases were referred to as Action Phases. So how this works is there are 12 Segments to a Turn. If you have Speed (SPD) the segments you go on are 6 & 12. Those segments are then referred to as Phases. That is when you are able to act or take an action. If you have SPD 3 then your phases are 4,8 & 12. So a SPD has one more phase in which to act then SPD 2 and will act first as his phase is before SPD. Now what can happen is that if you share a Phase with Someone else then the highest DEX goes first-ties roll off. It is possible to have a higher SPD than someone and have a lower DEX then that same someone. For your first game (and almost all my Fantasy games) the Players all have the same SPD. And just adjust the villains as needed. Basically I have low level mooks one less SPD and a major Boss one more SPD. 

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Yeah it helps to know some terms:

 

Speed: How often a character acts in a turn

Turn: A time period of 12 seconds.  A character's speed is divided into this turn as equally as possible.  That means there are 5 turns in a minute, should the topic arise.

Phase: When characters act in a turn, equal to their speed.  If you have a 4 speed, then you get 4 phases to act on in a turn

Segment: each second in the turn is called as "segment" as in one segment of a turn.  When a character acts on a segment, that is their Phase.

 

As much as possible, the turn is divided as evenly with phases.  That's part of the reason 12 was used rather than 10, it divides up evenly in more ways.  So:

1 Speed: act only on segment 6

2 Speed: act only on segments 6 and 12

3 Speed: act only on segments 4, 8, and 12

 

So you can see how it breaks down.  The first 4 speeds break down perfectly (the standards for most humans) and while 5 is odd, 6 again is perfect (every other phase).  Its really neat how it breaks down.

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The point of the characteristic maximum is to establish what is considered normal human.  That does not mean that the PC’s and the rare NPC cannot exceed them, but rather when it becomes something special.   A 23 STR in a heroic game should be something special and unique.  Probably only a few characters in the game should achieve this level.  I usually limit a single PC to go higher than the normal human max for any particular stat.  That way it makes is something special about their character that no other PC has.  When every PC has a 25 STR it ceases to become special.  

 

Normal human maximums also help establish what your opponents are likely to have.  If you realize that 90% of the people will have 15 or less STR your 20 becomes something special, and the 23 STR takes its rightful place as legendary.  Without having something to measure against you cannot really make any kind of comparisons.  


The other thing to consider is what kind of game you want to run.  If you are looking for a gritty realistic game where ordinary weapons are a danger observing the normal human maximums can keep things real.  If you are doing a low powered super hero campaign then going over them is going to be more common.  In the first case imposing the double cost for exceeding them is going to be appropriate.  In the latter case imposing double cost is not appropriate.  Since this post is in the Hero System discussion instead of Champions I am assuming that the campaign is not a Champions game, but I could easily be wrong.  
 

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The best way to visualize a phase was when someone commented once that a character's phase is basically one panel of a comic book.  You can do as much as one comic book panel is able to show, as a very rough analogy or reference.  There might be a film equivalent, but since film is uneven and different styles do things differently, its hard to give an example.

 

Like, in a Taken movie, there are like 8 cuts for a single punch.  In a movie like Meals on Wheels, Jackie Chan does like 28 things in a long continuous shot.

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1 hour ago, LoneWolf said:

The point of the characteristic maximum is to establish what is considered normal human.  That does not mean that the PC’s and the rare NPC cannot exceed them, but rather when it becomes something special.   A 23 STR in a heroic game should be something special and unique.  Probably only a few characters in the game should achieve this level.  I usually limit a single PC to go higher than the normal human max for any particular stat.  That way it makes is something special about their character that no other PC has.  When every PC has a 25 STR it ceases to become special.  

 

Normal human maximums also help establish what your opponents are likely to have.  If you realize that 90% of the people will have 15 or less STR your 20 becomes something special, and the 23 STR takes its rightful place as legendary.  Without having something to measure against you cannot really make any kind of comparisons.  


The other thing to consider is what kind of game you want to run.  If you are looking for a gritty realistic game where ordinary weapons are a danger observing the normal human maximums can keep things real.  If you are doing a low powered super hero campaign then going over them is going to be more common.  In the first case imposing the double cost for exceeding them is going to be appropriate.  In the latter case imposing double cost is not appropriate.  Since this post is in the Hero System discussion instead of Champions I am assuming that the campaign is not a Champions game, but I could easily be wrong.  
 

This is his first game. So let’s keep options to a minimum. And let’s keep assumptions also to a minimum. You don’t need Characteristica Maxima just because it’s Heroic.  I’m going to double check to see if that is EVEN an option in Basic. 

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Well as LoneWolf pointed out, there are two kinds of "Characteristic Maxima" in play here.  Two definitions:

 

1) A maximum level of characteristics at which point it costs double points to buy any higher

2) A maximum level of characteristics at which point you need permission from the GM to exceed.

 

The first is an optional rule, the second is just a campaign rule like "you're starting with level 8 characters AND NO TIEFLINGS!"

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The original poster is specifically asking about characteristic limits.  The fact that some people do not like or use them does not mean they do not have a place in the game.  Even if you don’t use characteristic limits knowing what is considered “Normal Human” is still useful.  Knowing that 99.99% of the population has a STR of less than 20 gives me a framework to build characters.  Without that framework how am I supposed to know how much STR I need for my concept?  If I want to build a character like Mr. T from the A Team, knowing that 20 STR is the maximum normal human STR lets me realize that an 18 STR is actually pretty strong.  And that a 23 STR is incredible.   Without this reference the player may assume that then need a 25-30 STR to be considered strong.

 

While characteristic maximums are an optional rule they are probably the single most common characteristic limit that is used in most heroic games.   This is exactly what the original poster was asking about.

 

Having some guidelines for a campaign is usually a good thing, especially for a first game.  Without any sort of guidelines the characters are probably going to be all over the place which will often lead to some of the players being disappointed with their characters.   It also makes it easier for the GM to write up opponents that are going to challenge all the characters.  When one character can throw around a DC 15 attack and the other is only doing 7 it is going to be hard for the GM to create an scenario that challenges all the characters. 

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2 minutes ago, LoneWolf said:

 

The original poster is specifically asking about characteristic limits.  The fact that some people do not like or use them does not mean they do not have a place in the game.  Even if you don’t use characteristic limits knowing what is considered “Normal Human” is still useful.  Knowing that 99.99% of the population has a STR of less than 20 gives me a framework to build characters.  Without that framework how am I supposed to know how much STR I need for my concept?  If I want to build a character like Mr. T from the A Team, knowing that 20 STR is the maximum normal human STR lets me realize that an 18 STR is actually pretty strong.  And that a 23 STR is incredible.   Without this reference the player may assume that then need a 25-30 STR to be considered strong.

 

While characteristic maximums are an optional rule they are probably the single most common characteristic limit that is used in most heroic games.   This is exactly what the original poster was asking about.

 

Having some guidelines for a campaign is usually a good thing, especially for a first game.  Without any sort of guidelines the characters are probably going to be all over the place which will often lead to some of the players being disappointed with their characters.   It also makes it easier for the GM to write up opponents that are going to challenge all the characters.  When one character can throw around a DC 15 attack and the other is only doing 7 it is going to be hard for the GM to create an scenario that challenges all the characters. 

Everyone has been very helpful haha! My other question now would fall into the skills/perks/talents and also the gear/powers section. What typically be useful? Like lets a PC wants to specify in being a computer whiz/hacker. Would not having the Hacker skill make him unable to do hacking or does it just boost it a bunch? Or is that all decided from the GM?

 

I still dont know where as the GM I am supposed to start at making a campaign, so im trying to learn what I can but the BR doesnt seem to be super helpful in that sense. I learn in the way of WHY the HOW works if that makes sense. Like I said in the original post, our starting campaign is going to be along the lines of a group of “heroes” that go around and fight crime, help save people around the city, etc. My general idea of characters was around the area of Black Widow, Jason Bourne, and James Bond kind of style. Nothing that unrealistic but not super normal either.

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Where to start with a campaign:

 

The characters. Get them fleshed out enough so that you have an idea of who and what they are, what their abilities are, what their skills are.

 

The first adventure: Focusing on the characters, give a task that allows each of them a time in the spotlight. It does help to have a general idea of where you as the GM want the campaign to go. Will it have a definite end? Will it be open-ended? Will the adventures be interconnected, like a TV show where the episodes build off each other, or will it just be a series of stand-alone stories?

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7 minutes ago, Greywind said:

Where to start with a campaign:

 

The characters. Get them fleshed out enough so that you have an idea of who and what they are, what their abilities are, what their skills are.

 

The first adventure: Focusing on the characters, give a task that allows each of them a time in the spotlight. It does help to have a general idea of where you as the GM want the campaign to go. Will it have a definite end? Will it be open-ended? Will the adventures be interconnected, like a TV show where the episodes build off each other, or will it just be a series of stand-alone stories?

Ok, I was thinking something shorter and basic to start so we can get an idea of how the game works, and then try something a little more advanced after.

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2 minutes ago, Tjack said:

   Maybe I missed it but what type of campaign are you shooting for?  I realize that a game will mutate in all kind of interesting ways over time but what comic/TV show/movie do you envision this looking like at the start?

A group fighting crime basically. Something simple. The heroes being along the line of Black Widow, Jason Bourne, James Bond etc.

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   So if I’m reading you right, since none of the examples you mentioned wear costumes this might be a bit like the first few seasons of the Netflicks Marvel shows. (Daredevil, Jessica Jones, Luke Cage, Punisher and Iron Fist)  Or possibly more like the first few seasons of Heroes.

  Either that or if you’re going for a campaign comprised of former Agents/Spies/Operatives protecting their city from the things in the shadows. That’s more of a Person of Interest, Kung-Fu: The Legend Continues, A-Team, Mission Impossible (TV) kind of thing.

  If that’s just the power level your talking about but with costumed Superheroes you might want to stick with the comics like the Frank Miller run on Daredevil or the early Marv Wolfman/George Perez run on New Teen Titans. Both are from the ‘80’s but are some of the best runs in all of comics and great examples of lower power level heroes.

   If I’m right in my guesses you may want to check those examples out for inspiration.  Good luck.🍀 

 

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