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Regarding skills, every character basically has any skill that the average person would know something about, as an 8- roll.  For example, the average person knows how converse or persuade, so they get an 8-.

 

You might decide an average person knows enough about computer programming to get an 8- but I'm skeptical that's true about regular folks.

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The great thing about the Hero System is it can be used to run any kind of game you want.  Champions is may be the most common of type of game for the Hero System but it is far from the only choice. 
Figure out what you want to run and go from there.  Some of the most fun games I have played using the Hero System did not involve super heroes.   Not to say that a good champions game is not a lot of fun but there is a lot more to the system than just super heroes.

 

Figure out what type of game you want to run and go from there.  Back in the days there was a Hero System game called Danger International that was basically for creating modern heroic level games.  There were no real “Powers” but lots of skills and talents.  That type of game may be what you are looking for.

 

Skills can be broken up into two basic categories.  First is what I would call full skills.  These are skills that have names and descriptions written in the books.  There are a few subcategories of full skills like agility skills, interaction skills, combat skills etc..  Each of these skills allow the character to do something significant in the game.   Computer Programing for example allows a character to hack into a computer or write programs.  Combat Driving allows the character to control a vehicle in a combat.  Stealth allows the character to sneak around unnoticed. 

 

The second category is what is called background skills.   Background skills allow a character to do something that is less significant in the game, but still may be useful to the game.  Background skills are for the most part defined by the player purchasing them.  They include things like Knowledge skills, Science Skills, Languages, Professional Skills and Languages.  They do not allow a character to do what is covered by a full skill, but can be used as complementary skills (more on that later). So a character who purchased PS hacker without purchasing Computer Programing would not be able to hack into a computer.

 

Sometimes more than one skill may be useful for a task.  The Hero System has a mechanism for this.  It is called complementary skills.  A complementary skill can be used to get a bonus on the primary skill.  So if the character has both Computer Programing and PS Hacker, they can roll the complementary skill (PS Hacker) to get a bonus on the Computer Programing skill.   Another Example would be if the character has Deduction and KS of organized crime.  The KS organized crime would be a complementary skill when using deduction to figure out who was involved in a crime (assuming it involved organized crime). 

 

Talents are similar to powers but a little more realistic.  They represent extraordinary abilities that go beyond mere skills.  They can be very useful for giving characters something unique they can do.

 

Combat skills represent what they sound like.  These include but are not limited to skill levels, martial arts and a few others.  Since combat is so important to the game they tend to be the most expensive skills in the game.  Background skills are the cheapest because they have the least impact on the game. 

 

Martial Arts are specific maneuvers they character can perform in combat. They are still fairly broad and often a specific maneuver may actually cover multiple real world maneuvers. If you have to actual maneuvers that do basically the same thing you only have to pay for one.  So you could have a punch/kick that has the same effect so you purchases once and can use either one when you are in combat.   Some maneuvers are just improved versions of normal maneuver, but others allow you do things that other characters cannot. 

 

In a Heroic Campaign equipment does not usually cost character points.  If you want a gun you simply purchase a gun with cash.  But that means you are limited to ordinary technology as defined by the campaign.  The characters don’t get to write up their own weapons, they use what weapons the GM decides are available.  In a modern campaign that would mean you get to use real world technology.  So the characters would not be using laser pistols or lightsabers.  If you were running a science fiction game those may be available. 

1 hour ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

You might decide an average person knows enough about computer programming to get an 8- but I'm skeptical that's true about regular folks.

 

As an engineer I can tell you that the average person knows nothing about computer programing.   Most people know how to use a computer, but would have no idea on how to actually program it.  Just because you can use a key to open a lock does not mean you know lockpicking. 

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One thing that needs to be pointed out about the kind of game you are thinking about: combat is lethal. Characters will die.

 

You should run some combats both by yourself and with your players before you start serious play. Otherwise your players will get a nasty surprise.

 

There are ways to build characters to minimise this. Look up Combat Luck in Volume 1, and get your players to buy lots of body. Don't get confused by supposed benchmarks here.

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As an engineer I can tell you that the average person knows nothing about computer programming.  

 

Yeah I've done some computer programming back in the early days, and almost nobody really knows how to do it today but... quite a few know enough to tweak and get the best out of their devices, which a GM might be willing to allow someone to use to get something done on a computer system: "hey this looks like Apple OS, I know a way to get the door open."

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8 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

Yeah I've done some computer programming back in the early days, and almost nobody really knows how to do it today but... quite a few know enough to tweak and get the best out of their devices, which a GM might be willing to allow someone to use to get something done on a computer system: "hey this looks like Apple OS, I know a way to get the door open."

 

A 1 point investment for Familiarity is not too much to ask, and an 8- isn't going to hack NORAD anyway.

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13 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

You might decide an average person knows enough about computer programming to get an 8- but I'm skeptical that's true about regular folks.

 

An 8- means you can use an office suite...word proc, spreadsheet.  Don't read too much into the 'programming' part.  The description is:

Quote

This includes knowledge of, and the ability to use, hardware, software, operating systems, and the like.

 

So an 8- can fire up Windows, run Explorer, Excel, and Word.  And yeah, that means being able to use Excel at least as a fancy calculator.  I'd let it cover being able to write small programs as well...even a high school programming class covers some very basic coding.  

 

You basically can't get an office job without some computer familiarity, and 8- is the lowest the system defines.  Also remember that the term's catchall...as is the term 'programming.'  The layman's use includes writing 20-line batch files, or 1-page Excel files.  

 

I like to reference the skill roll table on 6E1 page 56.  11- is the benchmark...that's "qualified to get a job using the Skill."  Given that it's a broad skill, maybe that's a network tech.  Entry-level professional jobs don't work independently;  they're supervised.  Programmer I slots get specific tasks to implement.  So 8- skill means you're nowhere near a coder...ergo, it's basic user knowledge.  So, yeah, it's everyman for 2021.

 

 

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3 hours ago, unclevlad said:

 

An 8- means you can use an office suite...word proc, spreadsheet.  Don't read too much into the 'programming' part.  The description is:

 

"This includes knowledge of, and the ability to use, hardware, software, operating systems, and the like. "

 

Followed by "Computer Programming also allows characters to penetrate computer systems electronically (commonly known as “hacking” or “cracking”) and to create security for computers. The character may attempt to discover access codes, gain information, conceal tampering, extract information from data banks, defeat computer-assisted Security Systems, falsify records or other data, and so on."

 

3 hours ago, unclevlad said:

 

An 8- means you can use an office suite...word proc, spreadsheet.  Don't read too much into the 'programming' part.  The description is:

 

So an 8- can fire up Windows, run Explorer, Excel, and Word.  And yeah, that means being able to use Excel at least as a fancy calculator.  I'd let it cover being able to write small programs as well...even a high school programming class covers some very basic coding.  

 

You basically can't get an office job without some computer familiarity, and 8- is the lowest the system defines.  Also remember that the term's catchall...as is the term 'programming.'  The layman's use includes writing 20-line batch files, or 1-page Excel files.  

 

I like to reference the skill roll table on 6E1 page 56.  11- is the benchmark...that's "qualified to get a job using the Skill."  Given that it's a broad skill, maybe that's a network tech.  Entry-level professional jobs don't work independently;  they're supervised.  Programmer I slots get specific tasks to implement.  So 8- skill means you're nowhere near a coder...ergo, it's basic user knowledge.  So, yeah, it's everyman for 2021.

 

It does not say you are qualified to get an entry-level position using the skill under close supervision.  "PS: Secretary" will get you eonugh word processing knowledge to format documents and find your backups when it crashes.  Computer programming will be imaging the drives and integrating the office's HW and SW.  14- is a master with the skill.  16- is one of the best in the world.  12- manages those qualified to get a job in the field.  The skill is computer programming, not using a user interface designed by a team of 11- computer programmers managed by a 12-.

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Yeah, that's why I left it up to interpretation.  Is writing a batch file and personalizing your computer with options programming?  Yeah, at a really super minimal level.  You're not hacking or writing your own programs, but you're digging far deeper into the use of what exists than the average person.  Personally I would allow an 8- shot at doing that kind of thing on a computer.  Like the annoying little girl in Jurassic Park bizarrely identifying a strange GUI as "Unix"

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1 hour ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

Followed by "Computer Programming also allows characters to penetrate computer systems electronically (commonly known as “hacking” or “cracking”) and to create security for computers. The character may attempt to discover access codes, gain information, conceal tampering, extract information from data banks, defeat computer-assisted Security Systems, falsify records or other data, and so on."

 

 

 

"Followed by."  The baseline, lowest level of skill is to be able to USE the computer.  Programming 

 

I think you're reading far too much into the fact that it's named "programming."  Because there's far more to IT than just programming, but the name goes back HOW long?  To when it really DID mean "programming?"  It's not the case any more.  It's the only IT-related skill.  So, do you really want to fracture the skill into a dozen sub-parts like Survival or Navigation?  

 

1 hour ago, Hugh Neilson said:

It does not say you are qualified to get an entry-level position using the skill under close supervision.  "PS: Secretary" will get you eonugh word processing knowledge to format documents and find your backups when it crashes.  Computer programming will be imaging the drives and integrating the office's HW and SW.  14- is a master with the skill.  16- is one of the best in the world.  12- manages those qualified to get a job in the field.  The skill is computer programming, not using a user interface designed by a team of 11- computer programmers managed by a 12-.

 

11- in Computer Programming says you can get a job.  It's the lowest level at which you can...so it gets you an entry-level position.  Entry-level programmers don't get big projects, they get small pieces of them.  And they're expected to have questions at times...thus, they're supervised.  Been there, done that...and I started as a programmer II.

 

Excel or OpenOffice wasn't built by 12-.  Try 16- project leads with 14- team leads, and a slew of 11- and 12- grunts.  I'll buy 15- for the project lead.  But I hate those vague descriptions.  For me, 14- is Masters, 16- is doctorate, in the scientific/technical fields.  Or drop them to 13- and 15- for the degree alone, then the extra point represents experience in the field.

 

Now, OK...if you want to argue that Programming is intended to be the contested skill...hacking, computer/network security design...and use PS's for non-competitive situations...that makes more sense.  That's also respecting the fact that the skill labels may be out of date in some cases.  Or that the underlying concept has changed...Cryptography is one of those.  Serious cryptography is an intersection of serious math and computer science.  The skill mentions this, but also brings up all the 50's spy movie tropes.  Which isn't wrong...but doesn't generally fit a current setting.

 

Last thought.  I started programming in high school in the 70s.  My first job was programming in Fortran IV.  My last job before retiring was doing Java development.  We're talking about going from slightly above assembly-language programming, to full object-oriented programming.  From doing everything the hard way, to focusing on the design, where the language tools streamlined everything greatly.  ANY coding in the 70s was much more painstaking, compared to a Hello, World style today.  So the basic notion of "what is programming?" isn't necessarily the same today as it was 50 years ago.  So what Computer Programming even means, and what the various levels mean, is absolutely open to interpretation.

 

 

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On 9/6/2021 at 7:31 PM, Crayon said:

Ok, I was thinking something shorter and basic to start so we can get an idea of how the game works, and then try something a little more advanced after.

That’s what I thought. The options can come later if and when you want them. How about breaking up a simple crime gang? The Thugs can be normals and skilled normals. The Boss can be just a competent normal adjusted to suit your tastes and don’t worry about points balancing out either for him (or her if so inclined). I’d gladly help if you want.

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The typical office worker can open up applications that someone else installed and maybe print to a printer that was setup for them.   If the program is not on the start menu they will not be able to open it.  As far as knowledge of hardware or operating system that is almost non-existent If I were to give your typical office working a new wireless printer with no instruction or software 95% of the population would not be able to set it up.   The typical office worker does not have familiarity with computer programing they have PS office worker.   

 

Most people use a computer the same way they use a car.  Without really understanding how it works. Just because I can drive a car does not mean I have any skill at mechanics at all. 
 

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The typical office worker does not have familiarity with Computer Programing they have PS office worker.   

 

Yeah that's why I wouldn't give it as an everyman skill; its like combat driving vs transport familiarity.  Combat Driving takes specific training or unusual talent.  Transport familiarity, pretty much anyone can get into a car and drive it, more or less, if they can reach the pedals.

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32 minutes ago, Ninja-Bear said:

That’s what I thought. The options can come later if and when you want them. How about breaking up a simple crime gang? The Thugs can be normals and skilled normals. The Boss can be just a competent normal adjusted to suit your tastes and don’t worry about points balancing out either for him (or her if so inclined). I’d gladly help if you want.

That sounds about exactly what I need, something to learn the game. Everyone on here has been super helpful I just still dont really know what to start making a campaign with or where to start. Nothing is very clear in that sense. I may just be slow though lol

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21 minutes ago, Crayon said:

That sounds about exactly what I need, something to learn the game. Everyone on here has been super helpful I just still dont really know what to start making a campaign with or where to start. Nothing is very clear in that sense. I may just be slow though lol

For now, I wouldn’t worry too much about a campaign-think one shot. Also even though staring Heroic characters are listed as 175/50 points that means that they are well rounded and competent at what they do. However coming fresh out of the gate there is a lot of potential which can be intimidating. I know cause at times I still feel it. (Note that even in a regular game, if someone builds a character and it seems not satisfying, you can allow a rebuild.) Also feel free to ….borrow other write ups and change them to suit YOUR needs. Just because Randall Irons is written for a classic Pulp game in mind doesn’t mean you can’t change skill, talents or character is tics to suit your needs.

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A good game is like a movie it is defined not so much by the Hero’s but by the villains.   What I would recommend is start by building an interesting villain for your players. Develop his background and that of any of his significant followers and the story will often flow from that.  Give the players are reason to really hate him.  Work some of their background into the story so they have some hooks.   Don’t over plan things simply setup the initial setting and let the story unfold. No matter what you plan your players are going to throw a monkey wrench into it, so learn to expect it. 

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16 hours ago, unclevlad said:

"Followed by."  The baseline, lowest level of skill is to be able to USE the computer.  Programming 

 

I think you're reading far too much into the fact that it's named "programming."  Because there's far more to IT than just programming, but the name goes back HOW long?  To when it really DID mean "programming?"  It's not the case any more.  It's the only IT-related skill.  So, do you really want to fracture the skill into a dozen sub-parts like Survival or Navigation? 

 

No, I want to divide it between "general knowledge" (like "anyone can run basic SW and routine computer application") and "actual skill that could impact the game" (for which we pay points).

 

16 hours ago, unclevlad said:

"Followed by."  The baseline, lowest level of skill is to be able to USE the computer.  Programming

 

It includes actual "knowledge of, and the ability to use, hardware, software, operating systems, and the like."  Not "ability to click an icon and open a SW package", or "can drag & drop an icon into a menu bar", or "can copy files to a backup hard drive".  To me, at least, paying points means getting an ability well past the average individual in the cinematic reality of the source material.  Much like the ability of an "average person" (8 STR) to lift a washing machine, and an "average PC" (investing 0 points) to lift 100 kg, I would allow the average PC the ability to run a Google search, prepare a Word document, PowerPoint presentation or Excel spreadsheet and conduct any of the thousands of activities normal people can do.  Despite the fact that I cannot use chopsticks, I would not charge a CP for "Chopsticks Familiarity" either.

 

 

16 hours ago, unclevlad said:

11- in Computer Programming says you can get a job.  It's the lowest level at which you can...so it gets you an entry-level position.  Entry-level programmers don't get big projects, they get small pieces of them.  And they're expected to have questions at times...thus, they're supervised.  Been there, done that...and I started as a programmer II.

 

So we view pretty much every PC as a novice in an entry-level position under close supervision?  Most have that base Everyman PS in their job.  I'd expect Clark Kent to sink a couple of points in to have won the Pulitzer, I guess.  I'd also expect a nobel-winning scientist to sink a point or two in.  Also recall that 11- has limited natural aptitude - an 8 INT PS: Nuclear Physicist has an 11- roll.

 

16 hours ago, unclevlad said:

Excel or OpenOffice wasn't built by 12-.  Try 16- project leads with 14- team leads, and a slew of 11- and 12- grunts.  I'll buy 15- for the project lead.  But I hate those vague descriptions.  For me, 14- is Masters, 16- is doctorate, in the scientific/technical fields.  Or drop them to 13- and 15- for the degree alone, then the extra point represents experience in the field.

 

To some extent, this is a question of "world design".  How many people do we think are "one of the very best people in the world with that Skill" at any given point in time?  That is the RAW definition of a 16- roll.  A 14- is "a master
with the Skill."  That sounds quite adequate to be a team lead in a larger business, and many smaller businesses (not the Microsofts of the world) would need to get by with less.  Recall that there is little room for growth - an 18- is one of the greatest masters of the skill in history.  There are not going to be half a dozen of those running around in active practice at any given moment in time.  20- is "the greatest in history" - "superheroes, gods, heroes of myth, and
supergeniuses".

 

So where are Bill Gates and Steve Jobs?  If we afford them an 18 (two "greatest masters of the skill in history" working in the same generation seems pretty unlikely), we still need to drop a lot of other innovators to a 17 or 16.  I'm not seeing those guys being project managers.

 

Connor McDavid has been referred to as a "generational player" in the hockey world, the "next Gretzky".  They are separated by 40 years - 2 generations. They would have skills of 17, perhaps 18 (having one of the "greatest in history" come along every 40 years or so seems like it is asking a lot).  Try musicians.  Is Mozart an 18-?  If so, how many Beatles were 18-?  The Who? The Stones? Buddy Holly?  They can't all be "one of the greatest in history" unless we are downgrading that term a lot.

 

Part of the problem, however, is that Hero suffers from "ability inflation" and we end up with a lot of characters buying 23- skills instead of accepting a 16- means that "difficult tasks which give lesser masters pause are matters of routine".  "Extremely difficulty" caps at -5, which suggests the 16- can make an 11- roll "as a matter of routine". Perhaps we need a "take 11" rule in Hero much like the d20 "take 10" rule. Under baseline circumstances, our master of the skill simply does not fail.  When "he's effin' Tarzan", he need not roll to leap from a window and skuttle up the balconies to the roof.  He's "one of the best in history", so we don't roll to see if he gets an 18 and plummets to the street below.

 

 

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On 9/6/2021 at 11:55 PM, assault said:

One thing that needs to be pointed out about the kind of game you are thinking about: combat is lethal. Characters will die.

 

You should run some combats both by yourself and with your players before you start serious play. Otherwise your players will get a nasty surprise.

 

There are ways to build characters to minimise this. Look up Combat Luck in Volume 1, and get your players to buy lots of body. Don't get confused by supposed benchmarks here.

Unfortunately Combat Luck isn’t in the BR. 😩

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