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Naked Adders?


Tywyll
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I am looking at a character who has regeneration. I would like them to also resurrect, but not at the same rate as their normal regeneration. LIke regen 1 point a round, resurrection 1 point a day or a week.

 

Is there anyway to do this without building two regen powers? It seems weird that the point value of adding resurrection to my 1 body a turn power is about the same as cheaper than buying a second, slower power for my resurrection (13 vs 14, not a huge deal but still...the 13 point power is waaaay superior). 

 

This is for 5th edition, btw. It made me wonder if Naked adders are a thing?

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Yah.  In 5E, Regen is built starting from Healing.  Technically you can buy 0 dice of Healing, and slap on the 20 point adder, then apply the normal modifiers that change Healing to Regen.  Or if that feels hokey, buy 1 pip of Healing.  HD is saying it's 14 for Healing 1 pip, Resurrection, 0 END persistent, self only, resurrection only, and per turn (the base rate).  Make it per 20 minutes, it's down to 11.

 

You aren't applying a naked modifier, because the modifiers that apply to the "live body" healing are not being used with the "corpse" healing.

EDIT:  oops, naked adder.  Not naked modifier.

 

 

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On 9/11/2021 at 8:51 PM, unclevlad said:

Yah.  In 5E, Regen is built starting from Healing.  Technically you can buy 0 dice of Healing, and slap on the 20 point adder, then apply the normal modifiers that change Healing to Regen.  Or if that feels hokey, buy 1 pip of Healing.  HD is saying it's 14 for Healing 1 pip, Resurrection, 0 END persistent, self only, resurrection only, and per turn (the base rate).  Make it per 20 minutes, it's down to 11.

 

You aren't applying a naked modifier, because the modifiers that apply to the "live body" healing are not being used with the "corpse" healing.

EDIT:  oops, naked adder.  Not naked modifier.

 

 

But would the 0 dice of healing work for that? I mean, the 0 dice are the persistant ones, not my regular regen? The 1 pip might work.

 

Thanks!

On 9/11/2021 at 6:42 PM, HeroGM said:

You could always buy it with the Linked or Unified Power -

True (except for the unified bit since this is 5e) but it would still cost around as much as just adding the Res to my existing Regen, which makes it super sub-optimal for me to do it that way. I feel like the loss of utility should come with a much heftier price reduction. 

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Resurrection Regeneration is not well defined.  Is the character considered stabilized, or does he need enough Regeneration to offset that -1 BOD per turn while at negative BOD?  The RAW says:

 

Quote

How long this takes is up to the GM, though it should usually bear some relation to the standard speed of the character’s Regeneration when alive.

 

So the RAW is not "apply the Regen points every time increment until the character is fully restored".

 

With no standard, how do we determine the variance?  A possibility for consideration (not thought through at all):

 

Determine how long it would take for the character to recover from "dead - negative his BOD score" to full BOD, applying the rate of regeneration otherwise.  In other words, treat it as Regen working normally.  [OPTION: Maybe we increase that time factor because the character was dead.]

 

Check that on the time chart.  Extra Time moves, generally, in 1/2 limitation increments.  For every time increment you move up (or down), apply a -1/2 advantage (or limitation) to the Regeneration adder.

 

So perhaps our character has 15 BOD and 5 BOD per turn Regeneration.  It would take 6 turns to recover 30 BOD.  That's just over a minute, so it counts as "up to 5 minutes" baseline. But it will take him 3 days.  That's less than a week, so we move through 20 min, 1 hour, 6 hours to 1 day and apply a -2 limitation to Resurrection. The cost of the adder becomes 7 points.

 

Now, perhaps he only recovers 1 BOD per week.  It would take 30 weeks, more than a season, so 1 year.  But his whose schtick is that he immediately is restored if he dies.  So we need to move down from a year to a full phase - 11 steps.  That's +5 1/2 on the Resurrection adder.  We then take a -2 on Regeneration as it only works for Resurrection. That's 2 + 20 x 6.5 = 132 AP/3 = 44 real points.  The ability to pop back up a phase after death is pretty powerful at any price, so the bigger question is whether the GM sets a minimum time regardless of point cost.

 

Thoughts?

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5E does not allow Regen faster than once per turn.  It's expressly stated (5E 187).  It makes no sense to me to allow resurrection faster.  Plus, in one phase you're talking about healing HOW much BODY?  To take the person from (say) -15 BODY to 1 BODY?  No.

 

Let's just start simple.  Or, as simple as we can, because Regen is a mess in 5E, with the required adders and limitations.  The adder is 20 points, but also gets 0 END and Persistent...so it's 40 active.  It also has Extra Time and Self Only for -1 3/4, so the net additional cost, when being added to per-turn Regen, will be 15 points.

 

Seems the simplest solution *to slow things down* for the Resurrection only is to treat it as a standalone power...then just modify the Extra Time (Regen Only) factor.  So we start with, as I did, the base 40 points (0 BODY Healing, Resurrection adder, 0 END Persistent).  Now apply Self Only as normal, and whatever Extra Time (Regen Only) you want...but it has to be at least 1 minute.  

 

At 1 minute resurrection, it's 13 points.  At 1 day, it's 9.  Leave it at that.  The mechanics are being ignored anyway.  Yes, I'm ignoring the Resurrection Only limitation.  Yes, this absolutely requires Regen Healing to be bought separately.

 

NOT ignoring the mechanics...the GM could require the player to buy enough normal Regen if the time for the resurrection seems too short.  My comparison would be to apply the living regen rate AND the ongoing bleedout together.  How long would that take to reach 1 BODY?  1 minute might be a bit fast, but 5 minutes should do it just fine.  This feels to me like the simplest basic rule for the minimum time to be resurrected...each turn, you gain the points specified by the regen, but also lose 1 point for bleeding out.  This continues until you reach 0+ BODY, at which point you stabilize.  No more bleedout;  your regen applies normally from here on.  That's how it works when the Resurrection adder is incorporated with the rest of the Regen.  If you want to take Resurrection separately as above, the minimum time *cannot* be quicker than that supported by the Regen.

 

And in this approach, slowing it down isn't saving very much.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Now...that's all 5E.  6E's mechanics are QUITE different.

 

The basic approach, to me, largely stays the same.  The time required is however long it takes based on the Regen you bought...if you buy APG regen per phase, well, it won't take very long.  One difference:  the Resurrection adder essentially triggers enough healing so you stabilize...at -BODY...and lets the regen kick in from that.

 

So this lets you buy 1 BODY Regen per hour for 8 points;  Resurrect for +20.  Resurrection Only is perfectly sensible for -2, so the final cost would be 9 points.  It would take you BODY hours.

 

And flip side, you could define 

I Mend Quickly:  Regen, 1 BODY per minute     AND

Phoenix Rebirth:  Regen 2 BODY per phase (using APG rules), Resurrection, Resurrection Only for 20 points.  Still takes several phases, tho, note.

 

This is straightforward in 6E.

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The biggest mechanical issue with Regeneration is the cost of making it faster.  That crosses the editions.  1 BOD per minute regenerates 60 BOD per hour.  Buying it as 60 BOD per hour would cost substantially more. If we stop at BOD/turn, 1 BOD per phase (or segment) is far more costly than if we add in the APG.

 

But the costs in the book work out much better if we assume the fastest rate is the base cost, which is then limited by "extra time" to slow it down.

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9 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

Resurrection Regeneration is not well defined.  Is the character considered stabilized, or does he need enough Regeneration to offset that -1 BOD per turn while at negative BOD?  The RAW says:

 

 

So the RAW is not "apply the Regen points every time increment until the character is fully restored".

 

With no standard, how do we determine the variance?  A possibility for consideration (not thought through at all):

 

Determine how long it would take for the character to recover from "dead - negative his BOD score" to full BOD, applying the rate of regeneration otherwise.  In other words, treat it as Regen working normally.  [OPTION: Maybe we increase that time factor because the character was dead.]

 

Check that on the time chart.  Extra Time moves, generally, in 1/2 limitation increments.  For every time increment you move up (or down), apply a -1/2 advantage (or limitation) to the Regeneration adder.

 

So perhaps our character has 15 BOD and 5 BOD per turn Regeneration.  It would take 6 turns to recover 30 BOD.  That's just over a minute, so it counts as "up to 5 minutes" baseline. But it will take him 3 days.  That's less than a week, so we move through 20 min, 1 hour, 6 hours to 1 day and apply a -2 limitation to Resurrection. The cost of the adder becomes 7 points.

 

Now, perhaps he only recovers 1 BOD per week.  It would take 30 weeks, more than a season, so 1 year.  But his whose schtick is that he immediately is restored if he dies.  So we need to move down from a year to a full phase - 11 steps.  That's +5 1/2 on the Resurrection adder.  We then take a -2 on Regeneration as it only works for Resurrection. That's 2 + 20 x 6.5 = 132 AP/3 = 44 real points.  The ability to pop back up a phase after death is pretty powerful at any price, so the bigger question is whether the GM sets a minimum time regardless of point cost.

 

Thoughts?

 

Buy it as a OAF pendant.

 

Costs END after the Resurrection is accomplished.

 

Costs x10 END.

 

So he pops back from death then is immediately Stunned because he didn't have, what, 130 END available? :D 

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There is another question not covered in the rules.  Is he alive again at full BOD, or at 1 BOD?  When restored to life, does he have full STUN and END?  1 STUN and END? -40 STUN and needs to recover consciousness?

 

Resurrection is very much in GM Option territory, with very few specific rules.  Healing is a bit easier, as he's either at negative BOD but alive, or positive BOD, after the Healing, but Regeneration tends to be more gradual.  Even with Healing, does being dead drop your STUN like being KOd drops your END?

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Sure, but those questions are only meaningful if the action is still in combat mode, on phases, mostly.  If it takes long enough to be on non-combat time, then once he's back up, the rest of the recovery will happen.  An exception is if the Regen's bought as Resurrection only...then the question of How Much BODY? is significant.

 

This is another argument, of course, for nailing down the process in the first place, if it can take place fast enough to still be in combat.

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Agreed.  Many limitations become far less limiting when all they mean is "only out of combat".  10x END?  Who cares if you can just recover after.  Activate 8-?  So what? You can just keep trying.  Even if you need to roll a 3, that's 1 chance in 216.  For a 2 SPD character, that's less than half an hour, on average, to roll a 3.  [2 phases per turn x 5 turns per minute = 10 so 600 tries an hour]  Extra time, 5 minutes?  Meaningless when you have all day.

 

If the resurrection means "he'll be back in time for the next significant scene", nailing down the phase by phase process isn't needed.

 

If, however, we envision recovery from death so rapid that they may be up and running in a turn, these questions become vastly more important.

 

Why do I keep seeing a Steve Long Rules Q answer of "if the GM is going to allow in-combat resurrection, the GM will need to figure out detailed rules for that."

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We can rephrase that a bit.

 

Some years back, I saw a good definition from D&D.  An encounter is anything where success or failure has consequences.  That's a great definition that's completely system-agnostic.  And it leads to the rephrase:  when you're not in an encounter, VERY FEW limitations are actually meaningful for PCs;  for the bad guys, they become plot devices quite often.  

 

And note that an encounter doesn't necessarily imply you're running on phases, or at least not explicitly on phases.  A B&E to search an office and hack the computers there for information isn't on phases as far as the PCs know...but failing carries various risks.  

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Use a partially limited power.   Basically you apply an extra limitation to part of a power.  In this case it would apply to the adder for regenerates from death.    

 

So buy the regeneration at the level you want like normal.  Then add on the regenerate from death and apply the extra time limitation to only that part of the regeneration.

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On 9/15/2021 at 3:00 PM, unclevlad said:

We can rephrase that a bit.

 

Some years back, I saw a good definition from D&D.  An encounter is anything where success or failure has consequences.  That's a great definition that's completely system-agnostic.  And it leads to the rephrase:  when you're not in an encounter, VERY FEW limitations are actually meaningful for PCs;  for the bad guys, they become plot devices quite often.  

 

And note that an encounter doesn't necessarily imply you're running on phases, or at least not explicitly on phases.  A B&E to search an office and hack the computers there for information isn't on phases as far as the PCs know...but failing carries various risks.  

Very true - but a Limitation on Invisibility such as Extra Time - 5 Minutes, 20x END, bot Only to Activate are pretty meaningless in a planned B&E, but mean you aren't using your Invisibility to fight off an ambush.  OTOH, Invisibility that Requires a Roll is a lot more limiting in the B&E if you need to roll 15- every phase or it cuts out (and you flicker into view on the security cameras and footage).  Stepping back, the two key questions are  how often will the limitation matter (i.e. be relevant in an encounter, combat or otherwise) and how much will it matter.

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