Jump to content

Biggest city in your world?


Lord Liaden

Recommended Posts

The thread on farmland needed to support a city elsewhere on this forum got me wondering, what's the population of the largest urban area in the fantasy world setting or type of setting you adventure in? E.g. most recent, most frequent, or preferred? A bit of discussion as to why you decided on that number would also be welcome.

 

I generally prefer bog-standard pseudo-medieval fantasy worlds, with a decent representation of non-humans in variety and numbers, and fairly common but rarely powerful magic. For such I set my top city at between 500,000 - 600,000 people within its immediate environs. My research suggests that's an historically justifiable number for the era, even without magic. However, when I've played in Hero's Atlantean Age world, with near-divine-level magic and nearly globe-spanning empires, I decreed the capital city of Atlantis, largest and most magical empire of the age, to have double those totals. Again, that's not without precedent. A number of reputable scholars have estimated a handful of real-world pre-industrial cities to have achieved populations of a million or more, although those estimates can vary significantly among those scholars.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've currently got two different settings fighting it out for attention in my head.

One is fairly generic. I'm not sure that the notionally largest city is, but I don't see anywhere bigger than 20000 actually showing up in practice. (But PCs, of course, would inevitably gravitate to bigger places, because they're PCs, and no plan survives contact with them.)

 

The other is fairly hard line early Bronze Age-ish. In that one, the largest "city" would max about at about ten thousand, but only during religious festivals. At other times it would be less than half that. The festivals would tend to deplete the local food supply, forcing most of the population to disperse back to smaller villages, or even to nomadic groups.

In neither case are there significant nonhuman populations, although there might be Dwarves/Gnomes and possibly other groups scattered around in the first case, if I am feeling a little silly.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My Magozoic setting is not quite bog-standard D&d because I am me, and I don't like all the standard races and cosmology. My current campaign is set in the Plenary Empire, chiefly inspired by the Byzantine Empire. As "Fantasy Constantinople," its capital Pleroma has a quarter-million people. Its second city, the great port of Thalassene (Fantasy Alexandria) has a population of 150,000. The numbers had been twice that, but I used Medieval Demographics Made Easy to work out plusible populations for the Empire, province by province and then in total, and decided that having 25% of the population in these two cities was too great a logistical challenge -- though it is still a setting point that the declining Empire's chief cities are swollen with refugees from lost provinces, and the Empire must import food despite having the most efficient and intensive agriculture in the region. I decided that one in eight people living in these cities was enough.

 

(Pleroma's population figure comes with an asterisk, as the number of souls is greater than the number of people. Its catacombs connect it to Bathys, the city of ghosts. The dead of the Empire who do not pass to the gods, Hell or oblivion also flock to the capital.)

 

The campaign is set in Thalassene. The population is mostly human, but there are neighborhoods of elves, dwarves, halflings, orcs, and other folk, as well as significant mixing in other neighborhoods.

 

There are cities with populations exceeding 100,000 in other countries -- likewise imperial capitals or former capitals -- but these locations do not require such detailed development. Other cities, in the Plenary Empire and beyond, may sometimes reach 20,000 people, but most are 10,000 or less.

 

Dean Shomshak

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Creation, the setting for White Wolf's game Exalted, includes several cities with populations of a million or more. The largest is the Imperial City, capital of the Scarlet Empire, officially defined as having a population of about 2 million. But it's the capital of a world empire, in a part of the world whose supernatural fertility and even climate enables three harvests a year, with the military power to collect more food in tribute. Nexus, the pseudo-Lankhmar trade hub of the Scavenger Lands on the world's largest river system, is nearly as blessed. Chiaroscuro, chief city of the South, is likewise an imperial capital, fed by immense grain-fields. Whitewall, greatest city of the North, requires greater aid from trade and supernatural blessings; but the three gods who rule and defend it ensure both. Gem is the most extreme case, as it is located in deep desert mountains of the overheated far South, a region that gets only fractions of an inch of rainfall a year. Such is the incredible wealth of jewels pulled from its mines, however, that people make the city work anyway. Petra-style water-collecting channels and cisterns are merely the most mundane infrastructure of Gem's survival.

 

It's part of Exalted's design esthetic to operate on a grand scale, with more influence from the Classical world or Imperial China than from medieval European squalor. It is also intensely supernatural, with gods and spirits everywhere, as well as massive ancient engineering projects, so natural limits are generally brought up only to show how they don't apply.

 

Dean Shomshak

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I prefer smaller populations.  In part because a large portion of the games I have enjoyed in the past (as player and as GM) have all been "age of exploration" type games-- the dawning of the particular Age in which we are playing.  Frankly, the typical "city" is about the size of a Renaissance  Festival (with way, way fewer costume sellers  ;)  ).  Really 'big" cities are very few and far between, and _might_ hit five thousand people for a true metropolis.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

I prefer smaller populations.  In part because a large portion of the games I have enjoyed in the past (as player and as GM) have all been "age of exploration" type games-- the dawning of the particular Age in which we are playing.  Frankly, the typical "city" is about the size of a Renaissance  Festival (with way, way fewer costume sellers  ;)  ).  Really 'big" cities are very few and far between, and _might_ hit five thousand people for a true metropolis.

 

 

Pretty much the same.  There may be knowledge of legendary distant cities, but locally they are small enough that individual PC heroes can have an actual impact.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

PXxKCEy.jpg

 The largest City is Falernia  at Grid square 10, 5.  it's probably about  400,000 with it's port mixed in. It's food intake is supplemented with a vast fishing fleet and seafood is a large portion of the local diet.

 

Map legend to indicate population sizes: 
image.png.92f0e7cba9b83d0f1046ec57411d9880.png

 

Hope this helps

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for the input, everyone. :hail:

 

I find it interesting that real-world demographics and agriculture relative to the historical period and technology level your settings are inspired by, seem to play a big role in determining your setting's populations for at least some of you. For most of human history we've invoked magic to bring good weather, bountiful crop yields, make animals and people fertile, cure disease etc. If a fantasy world includes such magic and it actually works, I could see population totals considerably exceeding their real-world equivalents. Moreover, a culture resembling that of an historical era need not be of comparable age. For example, my favorite D&D-esque setting, Hero's Turakian Age, has a predominantly pseudo-medieval society and technology, but a recorded history of at least five thousand years. That's nearly a millennium longer than the Middle Ages lasted on real Earth, hence potentially more time for numbers of people to build up.

 

That's just an observation, not a criticism. Whatever verisimilitude helps you immerse yourself in your world is not for me to judge. :no:

 

20 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

I prefer smaller populations.  In part because a large portion of the games I have enjoyed in the past (as player and as GM) have all been "age of exploration" type games-- the dawning of the particular Age in which we are playing.  Frankly, the typical "city" is about the size of a Renaissance  Festival (with way, way fewer costume sellers  ;)  ).  Really 'big" cities are very few and far between, and _might_ hit five thousand people for a true metropolis.

 

 

 

19 hours ago, Spence said:

Pretty much the same.  There may be knowledge of legendary distant cities, but locally they are small enough that individual PC heroes can have an actual impact.

 

Here, of course, we're talking about preferences in play environment and style, for which such figures make perfect sense. :thumbup:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As I mentioned, Exalted takes a less "low tech naturalism" approach -- and the High First Age, when the Solar Deliberative ruled the world, even less so. In the High First Age, for instance, the city of Chiaroscuro had a population of 40 million. But the High First Age had flying cities, mile-high towers, magitech factories, genetic engineering, and the power to shape new lands from the Primal Chaos. Anime High Fantasy, all the way! But that was the Golden Age that was lost, whose ruins and relics amaze -- and sometimes terrify -- the folk of modern Creation.

 

{White Wolf did publish a supplement for people who wanted to set campaigns in the High First Age. A mistake, I think, but whatever. I don't recall whether anyone actually runs such campaigns.)

 

Dean Shomshak

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The setting that I described as "fairly hard line early Bronze Age-ish" is actually mainly Neolithic, and is missing a lot of what you would otherwise associate with "Bronze Age". The word "early" is there for a reason.

If I had to give it a title, it would be "The First King". This is inspired by Denis Diderot's comment: “Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.”
 

So it's a setting point that urban society is rudimentary at best.

Influences include very early Sumerian society, pre-Dynastic Egypt, pre-colonial New Guinea, and of course, indigenous Australia. A few bits of Neolithic and Bronze Age Europe have snuck in too.

Where does magic fit in? It's all through it. Nothing would work without it. It doesn't change things - it makes them possible.

And not-Cassowaries have been domesticated.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

Thanks for the input, everyone. :hail:

 

I find it interesting that real-world demographics and agriculture relative to the historical period and technology level your settings are inspired by, seem to play a big role in determining your setting's populations for at least some of you. For most of human history we've invoked magic to bring good weather, bountiful crop yields, make animals and people fertile, cure disease etc. If a fantasy world includes such magic and it actually works, I could see population totals considerably exceeding their real-world equivalents. Moreover, a culture resembling that of an historical era need not be of comparable age. For example, my favorite D&D-esque setting, Hero's Turakian Age, has a predominantly pseudo-medieval society and technology, but a recorded history of at least five thousand years. That's nearly a millennium longer than the Middle Ages lasted on real Earth, hence potentially more time for numbers of people to build up.

 

That's just an observation, not a criticism. Whatever verisimilitude helps you immerse yourself in your world is not for me to judge. :no:

 

Here, of course, we're talking about preferences in play environment and style, for which such figures make perfect sense. :thumbup:

 

I guess I think of everything I post about gaming as being driven by "preferences in play environment and style".   But even I spend a lot of time looking through history books/sites, reading up on reality and seeing what I can use in game.   I still haven't found that perfect village/town yet so I am in the process of breaking out and relearning Campaign Cartographer.  It has been literally years since I used it, but you can make some amazing things with it.  Even I wasn't too shabby with it. 

 

I don't remember exactly where, it may have been on this board or another, and I just don't remember the details.  But it involved finding a good usable map of a small to mid-sized fortified village/town.  The long and short was I was an idiot because to such thing ever existed in all of history because it was too resource intensive for early village/towns.  Stone walls were just too expensive until the advent of large kingdoms.  And he ignored the idea of palisades or earthworks.  :nonp:  It was as bad as the idiot on the Modiphious boards that aggressively insists that no one had ever successfully made deck plans for Star Trek ship and stations and people should just quite asking about them.  I look at my shelf of them and my hard drive with 39 folders of Star Trek detailed deck plans.  I have found that in any game from Golden Age of piracy to scifi a printed deckplan (I prefer 11"x17" too small for mini's but large enough to see) really explodes player participation and immersion whether they are trying to cut out a Brigantine to boarding a Akira class starship.  For players just seeing the layout allows them to come up with cool things for their PCs to do.   But I am getting away from the thread. 

 

I really like using a map for the PC's base city/town/village because it helps build player buy in and a sense of ownership.  It becomes "their town" instead of just somewhere they are storing their stuff.  Building up named and recurring NPC's is also part of it.  As I mentioned I am still looking for a "usable town/village map" by which I mean usable for me.   No labels and with enough fortifications to be plausible for a frontier where threats (monsters/raiders) are not unknown if not frequent.   Maybe palisades, earthworks, maybe some rougher stonework.  Perhaps blockhouses such as was used in Colonial America which were borrowed from blockhouse style defenses from eastern Europe (?? I think?).  Anyway, I'm still looking and think I will pretty much need to make my own. 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/3/2021 at 3:04 PM, Spence said:

 locally they are small enough that individual PC heroes can have an actual impact.

 

 

This.  _So much_ this!

 

And that's why we end up playing a _lot_ of "early in this Age" or "after the fall of the last Age," etc.  Sure; it's probably different for every group, but our groups generally want to have an impact on the places they adventure.  To have an impact on a town of twenty-thousand you'd need to bring a small army and a siege engine.  There's not much a group of four to eight Player Characters can really do to make a lasting impact.  It'd be like rolling into the town in which I live with a bag of revolvers:  So what?

 

 

 

7 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

Hero's Turakian Age, has a predominantly pseudo-medieval society and technology, but a recorded history of at least five thousand years. That's nearly a millennium longer than the Middle Ages lasted on real Earth, hence potentially more time for numbers of people to build up.

 

 

Right.  Another reason we do it the way we do:  we don't really have to justify a thousand years of sameness, because there _hasn't been_ a thousand years of anything yet.

 

I guess we do "fantasy as frontier" more than anything else.

 

 

1 hour ago, assault said:

 Denis Diderot's comment: “Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.”

 

 

Never heard that before.

 

I rather like it.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

Never heard that before.

 

I rather like it.

 

 

Diderot was an 18th century Enlightenment philosopher and intellectual precursor to the French revolution.

 

I prefer not to draw from modern fantasy literature - most of it sucks, and a lot of it is riddled with libertarianism.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm starting to consider the idea of a previous "Age" for my First King setting.

 

It takes away from the purity of the concept, but it would be easy to fit into the mythology and allow me to introduce anomalous stuff - magic Items, places of mystery and so on. Good for a game, bad for the concept. It might be worth it.

 

It's not like Great Floods are without precedent in the material I am drawing from.

 

Pre-human civilizations are another option.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There are certainly precedents, e.g. the Minoan civilization of Crete which influenced the Myceneans in mainland Greece, but collapsed wholly or partly due to the volcanic explosion of the island of Santorini; or the major lowland Maya cities which were abandoned after war and/or economic collapse, leading to migration to new areas. In both cases the earlier era of civilization largely passed into legend.

 

Germain to the topic of this thread, the population estimates for even the largest cities of these civilizations were in the tens of thousands at most. Populations outgrowing the resources to sustain them are one explanation for their collapse.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, assault said:

 

It takes away from the purity of the concept, but it would be easy to fit into the mythology and allow me to introduce anomalous stuff - magic Items, places of mystery and so on.

 

 

That, Sir, is the whole reason I do it: I can have as many magic relics as I want (or don't), and dont have to have the entire world at some,magic level that it almost makes sense that people lose these sorts of things without spending their lives looking for them again.  While in some precious age, it might have been easier to just replace them, in this one, not so much.

 

It also goes a long way toward justifying the inability to just buy or create another one od that cool magic thing the bad guy has.

 

It helps explain isolated pockets of civilization without having to go into evolution and the migratory habits of African Swallows, and it allows unexplanable wonders to exist without explanation.

 

And, in reference to another thread, it helps explain "mideval stagnation:"  we aren't still here; we are here again.

 

Yes: it does rule out some,interesting ideas, but the value it brings to our games far outstrips the potential missed opportunities, at least for us.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On Nyonia there are two large cities along a major land and sea/ocean trade routes with populations of about 500,000.  Most of the cities and big towns are closer to 10k or so.  They only exist along major trade routes and usually near water.   There are many many villages all over the place, which can be anywhere for 50 to 300 people.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Unfortunately, your content contains terms that we do not allow. Please edit your content to remove the highlighted words below.
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...