Mr. R Posted October 7, 2021 Report Share Posted October 7, 2021 Don't get me wrong, in a traditional DnD game I LOVED playing the cleric. Decent HTH, Good Armour, and a nice selection of spells/miracles make a cleric a well rounded PC. But is he manditory? Most of the time, he was the "Healer" of the party and with a jerk GM the cleric was just shy of the Paladin as the PC most likely to get smacked by a vengeful GM. Also depending on the nature of your deities, you could end up with some wildly differing looks to a cleric. For example I have a Goddess of the Night Sky: Lady of the Stars, the navigator, Patroness of sailors, desert travelers. The night predator. romance. Poetry, beauty She should have very different abilities than Lord of Storms: the Rain Bringer, Thunderer, Destroyer, Renewer, So how do you handle it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assault Posted October 7, 2021 Report Share Posted October 7, 2021 I tend to overlook D&D style clerics. Any priest types I use tend not to carry the D&D style baggage. Duke Bushido and Opal 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted October 7, 2021 Report Share Posted October 7, 2021 A GM has no business "vengefully smacking" any PC just for the character type they choose. GMs are supposed to decide what PC types will be allowed in their games. Granted, D&D lays out clerics as one option, so players may feel they have a right to play them; and that game is more prescriptive in what they can do, so a GM may feel pressure to allow them to have abilities he/she doesn't like. Fortunately, we here know of an alternative to D&D. For Hero System clerics/priests may have whatever skills, spells, and other qualities are allowed for a given game group. That includes customizing options to make priests of particular religions and/or gods distinctive and filling different roles. In Hero Games' fantasy book lines, priests of differing faiths or whose patron gods have their own specializations, usually have their own categories of divine magic "spells" or other abilities, and/or practice specific skills. Derek Hiemforth, Christopher R Taylor and Hermit 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted October 7, 2021 Report Share Posted October 7, 2021 The fantasy hero games I ran in the past, there was rarely a healer involved. People relied on time, magic items, and avoiding damage as much as possible. I don't care for the pagan idolatry 97 flavors of deity system most fantasy games run, so the entire cleric thing makes me a bit uncomfortable to begin with. Duke Bushido 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asperion Posted October 7, 2021 Report Share Posted October 7, 2021 Historically the clergy and paladen were effectively the same. The break in them really didn't appear until dnd had one group say "I want play a cleric" and another group say "I desire to be the paladen". This leads dnd to make differences when realistically there are none. As a result, if your campaign wants to only have one over the other then there's nothing stopping you except gaming tradition, and that you're allowed to make as you go. Throw out what other games have done and make your own game!!!! 🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted October 7, 2021 Report Share Posted October 7, 2021 Templars were monks, so were Hospitallers. That's the origin of the Paladin concept: the holy knight. indy523 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Goodwin Posted October 7, 2021 Report Share Posted October 7, 2021 In many of the Fantasy Hero games I remember from ye olden tymes (the Game Alliance of Salem, mid-late 80's) we had many Fantasy Hero games in which "arcane" wizards had healing spells, and few to no "cleric" types were to be found. The healing spell would often be one spell out of a list of some number between 3 and 8, and the same caster often would have damaging spells, defensive spells, non-healing buffs, and so on. Many magic systems that invoke the names of the gods could fall anywhere on the spectrum from arcane wizardly to devout priestly. As with everything, It Depends. If you're using "schools" of magic, it's possible that one or more might have healing spells in them, perhaps working differently (one to restore Impairing/Disabling wounds, and another one to restore BODY), and that a "true" healing might require both healing spells together. It's possible that there might be a specialist known as a "medical mage" who is required to have mundane medical skills as well as knowing one or more healing spells; I've often wanted to design healing spells that provide bonus Healing if the caster makes a medical skill roll. Those who minister to the flock don't have to be inherently magical, no matter the source of that magic; those who heal don't have to be associated with any deities. This is Fantasy Hero, after all! Ockham's Spoon and Duke Bushido 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spence Posted October 7, 2021 Report Share Posted October 7, 2021 3 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said: That's the origin of the Paladin concept: the holy knight. The best novel(s) I have ever read concerning a paladin was The Deed of Paksenarrion. It really portrayed the old D&D Paladin concept that most players never came close to. Hermit and Mr. R 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted October 7, 2021 Report Share Posted October 7, 2021 I have a few minor healing spells in my magical stuff (Nature, Shaman, Castle, War) but the real powerful heals are with the priests. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DShomshak Posted October 8, 2021 Report Share Posted October 8, 2021 22 hours ago, Mr. R said: Don't get me wrong, in a traditional DnD game I LOVED playing the cleric. Decent HTH, Good Armour, and a nice selection of spells/miracles make a cleric a well rounded PC. But is he manditory? Of course not. Useful -- for D&D -- but not mandatory. 22 hours ago, Mr. R said: Also depending on the nature of your deities, you could end up with some wildly differing looks to a cleric. For example I have a Goddess of the Night Sky: Lady of the Stars, the navigator, Patroness of sailors, desert travelers. The night predator. romance. Poetry, beauty She should have very different abilities than Lord of Storms: the Rain Bringer, Thunderer, Destroyer, Renewer, I see no reason why gods of different character and concerns would not give correspondingly different gifts to their mortal priests or other representatives. All depending, of course, on how you define gods for your setting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DShomshak Posted October 8, 2021 Report Share Posted October 8, 2021 The D&D cleric is a way to handle divinely-empowered characters for a FRPG. It's not a bad way. But it is hardly the only way. For instance, in Exalted all the various sorts of Exalted (Solar, Lunar, Sidereal, Terrestrial, Abyssal, Infernal, Alchemical -- I'm leaving out som innovations from 3rd ed because I don't know them well) in some way from a divine entity. But they don't get spells from those entities; they get a capacity to channel and shape supernatural power that the entity has no further control over. (In the case of the Terrestrial Exalted, for instance, the power was given thousands of years ago and passed to descendants.) Some varieties of Exalted are particularly associated with priestly functions, but they don't have to be actual priests. Or take a look at Lois McMaster Bujold's "World of the Five Gods" stories. Saints channel power directly from a god. Some of their miracles follow common themes: for instance, saints of the Father being able to discern truth, saints of the MOther being good at healing, or saints of the Bastard pulling demons out of people and returning them to the god that is their source. But many miracles are sui generis... and so subtle that most people can't perceive them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DShomshak Posted October 8, 2021 Report Share Posted October 8, 2021 The other two forms of magic in the World of the Five Gods have associations with deities, but are not actuzlly controlled by them. Sorcerers are possessed of demons and gain use of the demons' powers. Demons come from the Bastard, but a sorcerer doesn't need the god's permission. Shamans possess an animal spirit that grants their powers. Such spirits have an association with the Son of Autumn; a connection that may allow that god to communicate with them more easily than with other mortals; but the Son does not control them or their powers. I am sure other people here can cite other ways Fantasy has handled divine power. Dean Shomshak Hermit 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluesguy Posted October 8, 2021 Report Share Posted October 8, 2021 In my games there are priests, shamans, and warrior priests. Each of those types of 'clerics' is associated with specific god. There are two gods that the are most associated war and battles, so they have the warrior priests. The shamans are associated with a few different gods and also with a couple of 'spirit worship'. The other gods mostly have priests or in one case there are no priests but rather mages tend to be associated with that this one off god (knowledge and hidden things). I think the important thing is to make sure any gods you have are unique enough to have spheres of influence and that their priests reflect those spheres of influence. Mr. R 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spence Posted October 8, 2021 Report Share Posted October 8, 2021 Well to be fair, the D&D cleric was developed/designed when it was the only show in town. It fulfilled a character ability need while staying vague and non-specific on any religious details. They may have added supplements to fill out choices like Dieties and Demigods. But in the original build there were no specifics. For me the class/level type game system hasn't aged well. But if played as intended within the setting intended, they do the job and can make a fun game. Joe Walsh and Duke Bushido 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted October 8, 2021 Report Share Posted October 8, 2021 13 hours ago, DShomshak said: Demons come from the Bastard, but a sorcerer doesn't need the god's permission. I have to say, proclaiming, "My god is the Bastard!" would sound badass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L. Marcus Posted October 8, 2021 Report Share Posted October 8, 2021 29 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said: I have to say, proclaiming, "My god is the Bastard!" would sound badass. Right. Just don't say it in the Roknari Archipelago, unless you can fight reeeally well or run reeeally fast. DShomshak 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Ruggels Posted October 8, 2021 Report Share Posted October 8, 2021 I don't know this book series. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Bushido Posted October 8, 2021 Report Share Posted October 8, 2021 And I am just going to point out that, while never done intentionally, it's pretty normal in my campaigns for druid types to have as good or better healing magic then clerics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Ruggels Posted October 9, 2021 Report Share Posted October 9, 2021 I think that it is more "cultural" factors that dictate if the "cleric" is a viable adventuring class. In the Old Campaign, priests were mostly associated with specific temples and settlements. In the newer campaign, there is a division called "The Church Militant" which are armed and armored priests that are sent out as "Policy implementation Specialists", and functions more like Paladins, or Templars, and answer to the higher Church Hierarchy which are bound to the cities and towns. Different religions have different expectations of what they want their clergy to do. The Problem with the original question, is it comes from an assumption coming from D&D, but then D&D has very poorly defined cultures and folkways of the various peoples, and they all speak common. The Turakian Age at least gives and attempt to flavor the various kingdoms. Even in my Campaigns there are different languages, and different customs. Duke Bushido 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted October 9, 2021 Report Share Posted October 9, 2021 The D&D version of cleric I really do not know the origin of. Heavy armor wearing healers with blunt instruments they tell themselves don't draw blood, and every special effect described in the Bible assigned a spell (except floating hammers). It feels like a random assortment of ideas stuck together because Arneson and Gygax decided they needed a healer class. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assault Posted October 9, 2021 Report Share Posted October 9, 2021 According to Arnesen, a PC became a vampire and wandering monster in the Blackmoor dungeon. Sometime later a player wanted to play a Van Helsing type, which became the first prototype "cleric". I haven't heard anything about the subsequent evolution of the character class. The published version might owe a lot more to Gygax than Arnesen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Goodwin Posted October 9, 2021 Report Share Posted October 9, 2021 47 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said: The D&D version of cleric I really do not know the origin of. Heavy armor wearing healers with blunt instruments they tell themselves don't draw blood, and every special effect described in the Bible assigned a spell (except floating hammers). It feels like a random assortment of ideas stuck together because Arneson and Gygax decided they needed a healer class. I think it was Crusaders for the armor and weapons, and the Hammer Horror films version of Abraham van Helsing for the turning undead part. And like you said, a spell for every special effect in the Bible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoneWolf Posted October 9, 2021 Report Share Posted October 9, 2021 The D&D concept of a spell casting priest always seemed a little strange to me. If you can channel the power of a true deity why is it affected by the same things as a wizards spell? You should not be able to dispel a power of deity the same way you would a wizard. Divine power should not have the special effect of magic. When I run a campaign priests are not granted spells by their deity, they are granted gifts. In game terms they are bought as talents not spells. They do not have the special effect of magic. Divine favor (luck with religious restrictions) is probably the most common divine power. Others include the ability to bless an item (Make it considered Holy without changing anything else) is also common. Personally I prefer running something closer to a medieval European culture so often go for a monotheistic culture rather than a pantheistic. If I am doing a pantheistic culture the various gods will grant gifts based on their portfolio. For example a fire deity may grant protection from fire or other fire based powers. Priests are able to learn magic like anyone else, but that is separate from the powers granted by their god. Nothing prevents the priest of a god of fire from learning fire magic and using it as a weapon. In some cases the church may runs schools to teach specific kinds of magic just like they may teach specific fighting styles. This may lead to a situation where certain types of magic may become associated with a specific order or deity, but other can still learn it. Duke Bushido 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Bushido Posted October 9, 2021 Report Share Posted October 9, 2021 1 hour ago, LoneWolf said: The D&D concept of a spell casting priest always seemed a little strange to me. If you can channel the power of a true deity why is it affected by the same things as a wizards spell? You should not be able to dispel a power of deity the same way you would a wizard. Divine power should not have the special effect of magic. When I run a campaign priests are not granted spells by their deity, they are granted gifts. In game terms they are bought as talents not spells. They do not have the special effect of magic. Divine favor (luck with religious restrictions) is probably the most common divine power. Others include the ability to bless an item (Make it considered Holy without changing anything else) is also common. Personally I prefer running something closer to a medieval European culture so often go for a monotheistic culture rather than a pantheistic. If I am doing a pantheistic culture the various gods will grant gifts based on their portfolio. For example a fire deity may grant protection from fire or other fire based powers. Thank you, Lone Wolf. I thought I was going to be the odd man out again. That's pretty much exactly how _most_ of my clerics work-- it just feels... "more correct," for complete lack of a better word. I also think it's why druids end up doing more of the heavy lifting on the traditional "clerical magic:" things like Healing, purifying (really purifying, like removing poisons from things and such; not "deleting demonic stain" type purifying), etc. It just seems that "putting the world right" or "restoring the natural state of things" would fall more onto those who draw their power from the rightness of the natural world.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asperion Posted October 9, 2021 Report Share Posted October 9, 2021 In the medieval times, EVERYONE needed to know how to fight and heal. This includes the warrior knights and healers. I don't care what side you are on or belief is, that will be true or you will be destroyed in combat. This concept of separation started during the American Civil War and Gygax has really made it strong with the different races and classes that each have their own unique abilities that states they perform different activities in the same situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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