No place for a cleric?

[Ninja-Bear]

The website Dumpstat I believe did a deep dive if the cleric class. That’s where they look at a subject through all the editions.

[Christopher R Taylor]

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The D&D concept of a spell casting priest always seemed a little strange to me.  If you can channel the power of a true deity why is it affected by the same things as a wizards spell?

 

Yeah the mechanics need to be different.  By the time I swapped over to Fantasy Hero from AD&D I had entirely different spell systems for nearly every class because they just didn't feel right.  I've followed that through with Fantasy Hero, with different methods to perform their supernatural abilities.

[assault]

17 hours ago, Chris Goodwin said:

 

I think it was Crusaders for the armor and weapons, 

 

The no edged weapons seems to come from the portrayal of Bishop Odo on the Bayeaux Tapestry. 

It has no other historical basis, but existed as a factoid before (probably) Gygax wrote it into the Cleric class.

Historical clubs, sceptres, maces and so on were symbols of authority. It's possible Odo's club had that meaning. Duke/King William himself used a club elsewhere in the tapestry.

The armour and fighting ability stems from the crusaders, yes.

The Paladin class is arguably redundant.

[Mr. R]

I am considering using a model I saw in an OLD Adventurers Club edition where the cleric player gets a VPP with a End Battery (representing how much he will help)  The VPP is limited by powers that match the deities portfolio (no weather control for God of War) and that he has no control over what he gets.  When the End Battery runs out it means the deity is done helping them for the day.  (Maybe also an Activation roll for how much pull the cleric has with the deity?)

[Christopher R Taylor]

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Maybe also an Activation roll for how much pull the cleric has with the deity?

 

Or how much attention their godlet is paying that moment.  He might be on a long journey, or in the bathroom.  Yell louder.

[IndianaJoe3]

In the Fallen Empire setting that I'm noodling with, fighters, mystics (clerics), and wizards all have their own sorts of healing, with different restrictions and effects. Fighters have what amounts to Hollywood-style first aid that allows for rapid recovery while resting. A wizard's arcane mending can patch someone up quickly, but it will fade (because arcane power requires a mind to focus it). The mystic's ability to channel divine power allows for rapid, true healing.

[LoneWolf]

One of the best “Cleric” I played in a Fantasy Hero game had almost no powers of his deity that were under his direct control.  About the only thing he had control over was his ability to bless an item (that was a transformation of any item to holy).  He had lots of Divine Favor that was bought as luck with religious restrictions.  We were using the variant luck where you roll your luck at the beginning of the session and can change that many rolls.  I think I got the divine favor up to 8d6 at the end of the campaign.   His luck was high enough that he could affect the rolls of others so he made the rest of the party a lot more effective.   

 

He had some decent fighting ability and a lot of social skills.  From the other characters standpoint it was almost impossible to tell when he was using his powers.  From the standpoint of the players it was a lot more obvious. It was a blast to play the character.  
 

[Mr. R]

52 minutes ago, LoneWolf said:

One of the best “Cleric” I played in a Fantasy Hero game had almost no powers of his deity that were under his direct control.  About the only thing he had control over was his ability to bless an item (that was a transformation of any item to holy).  He had lots of Divine Favor that was bought as luck with religious restrictions.  We were using the variant luck where you roll your luck at the beginning of the session and can change that many rolls.  I think I got the divine favor up to 8d6 at the end of the campaign.   His luck was high enough that he could affect the rolls of others so he made the rest of the party a lot more effective.   

 

He had some decent fighting ability and a lot of social skills.  From the other characters standpoint it was almost impossible to tell when he was using his powers.  From the standpoint of the players it was a lot more obvious. It was a blast to play the character.  
 

 

 

 

OHHHH!  I like!

[Ninja-Bear]

8 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

Or how much attention their godlet is paying that moment.  He might be on a long journey, or in the bathroom.  Yell louder.

😆 I get your reference!

[Greywind]

Don't your clerics get temples to pray in?

[Ninja-Bear]

Also let’s rename Calling down the Lightning to Calling down the fire!

[tombrown803]

If you deity is in the bathroom, you might be calling something else down.

[L. Marcus]

That'd give the ol' belief muscles a good workout, though.

[assault]

It would be an awesome plague.

It might increase crop yields afterwards though, so you would want to conquer that bit of land.

[Hermit]

I absolutely adore D&D style clerics. The pantheons are almost always fun and fascinating and they help tell you a lot about the setting. I realize they're not everyone's cuppa, but some of my earliest RPG memories include having my cleric of St. Cuthbert headsmacking the heathen bandits and unbeliever kobolds .. for their own good, of course. *Ahem*

 

I tend to play religion as very important to my settings, politically and otherwise, so even if the priests don't have spell one, you do not want on their bad side, and often found them to be good allies. Need a clue to a lost treasure? There's a monastery that works as a library and is happy to share their knowledge if asked nicely because that's what their beliefs tell them. That group of people being attacked by orcs? Those are pilgrims on their way to a holy site that is known for the miracle of... INSERT INTERESTING THING HERE! 

So I've had librarian priests, guide priests, warrior priests, of course healer focused priests, and yes, a Cardinal  Richelieu type now and then who even the king is leery of.

 

I actually prefer the polytheistic mess with each god having their own priesthood that's so typical, probably nostalgia, but also because my players prefer it as well. So yes, a cleric of the goddess of war will be a lot different from a swindling priest of a trickster god, and their levels of organization will vary. And I tend to have the gods very active. This allows me to slip in some 21st century values believably into a medieval ISH setting. If a city where women are treated as property suddenly finds it's patriarchs struck blind in an obvious warning from some goddess, well, that would explain why Sexism isn't as common as you might have otherwise. Etc.

[Mr. R]

21 minutes ago, Hermit said:

 

 

This allows me to slip in some 21st century values believably into a medieval ISH setting. If a city where women are treated as property suddenly finds it's patriarchs struck blind in an obvious warning from some goddess, well, that would explain why Sexism isn't as common as you might have otherwise. Etc.

 

 

YES!!!!!

[Christopher R Taylor]

A world where women can cast spells changes the entire dynamic without needing to insert modern thought into a quasi-medieval setting.

[Lord Liaden]

1 hour ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

A world where women can cast spells changes the entire dynamic without needing to insert modern thought into a quasi-medieval setting.

 

I dunno. There are plenty of places where women can own guns. That doesn't seem to have changed the dynamic much in itself. Power can lead to fear of individuals, but not respect for a group. Understanding seems to have been a more effective tool for that purpose. Although some people still refuse to understand...

[Christopher R Taylor]

Well I guess given the choice between "women in this world are able to manipulate reality, given them an innate power men respect and view with supernatural dread" and "I want things to be like they are in the time I live, and will just make it so" the former feels more organic and culturally plausible, less forced to me.

[Lord Liaden]

Given a choice between those two explanations, I agree. But it would most likely result if women had power, or a type of power, that men lacked. Many early societies were matriarchal, when the role of women in reproduction was given mystical and even religious importance. Ultimately, though, that gave way to men's ability to swing bigger weapons.

[Greywind]

Jordan's Aes Sedai are all women. Sometimes respected, usually feared. Just not as much as their male counterparts are feared.

[Hermit]

18 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Well I guess given the choice between "women in this world are able to manipulate reality, given them an innate power men respect and view with supernatural dread" and "I want things to be like they are in the time I live, and will just make it so" the former feels more organic and culturally plausible, less forced to me.

 

Not what I said... 

To repeat

"This allows me to slip in some 21st century values believably into a medieval ISH setting."  so no, it's not 'just like they are in the time I live' Any game master picks and chooses what is and isn't in their game world. Saying the sexes will be treated more equally is no more "forced" than deciding it will have only four races to pick from as playable characters, or that magic in the setting will work from the same source.  Each pick of what is or isn't in a gameworld; it's peoples, it's cultures, is a good prompt to 'How did it get there?' I've found it allows a rather natural means to speculate upon and fill out backstory and history for each culture.  I don't sit down with the players and go "This is what I wanted and that's why", they're bright folks, and they know everyone has their style and preferences and that I try to take theirs into account.  

 

If they show an interest in a part of the setting, and their characters are either locals or have the right knowledge skills, What I do is say "One hundred years ago today, the Patriarchs of the  city of Vircombe declared the already beleaguered women of their city to be property of their husbands, and those unwed to be auctioned off as brides to the highest local bidder to fill the treasury. The women prayed to the goddess Tymyrsa for rescue, and the Patriarchs were blinded by her holy power. Their rule was cut short, and the women, knowing their prayers were heard, rose up and demanded to be full citizens. Your party has arrived on the anniversary of that event, and that explains why so many are wearing red blindfolds (of course, of such thin material they can still see through it) to honor that day."

 

If that feels forced to you, well, so be it, but the players liked it and it was a fun world crafting moment for me.

[bluesguy]

17 hours ago, tombrown803 said:

If you deity is in the bathroom, you might be calling something else down.

There is a story in the Bible, 1 Kings 18, about Elijah challenging the priests of Baal (call on your god to light the wood on fire with your sacrifice and I will do the same).  At 1 Kings 18:27 Elijah starts to taunt the priest of Baal.  In some translations (or maybe it is in the Hebrew) Elijah tells them to yell louder because maybe Baal is in the bathroom.

[Scott Ruggels]

18 hours ago, Hermit said:

No. 
 

I tend to keep things to the historical model in my games. I also rune with fewer pantheons than a typical D&D which makes their establishments a

bit less willing to rock the boat, and have a more conservative clergy.   Though the Byzantine game is monotheistic and has a powerful church, none of the current rent players are believers. 

[Mr. R]

7 hours ago, Hermit said:

 

 

If they show an interest in a part of the setting, and their characters are either locals or have the right knowledge skills, What I do is say "One hundred years ago today, the Patriarchs of the  city of Vircombe declared the already beleaguered women of their city to be property of their husbands, and those unwed to be auctioned off as brides to the highest local bidder to fill the treasury. The women prayed to the goddess Tymyrsa for rescue, and the Patriarchs were blinded by her holy power. Their rule was cut short, and the women, knowing their prayers were heard, rose up and demanded to be full citizens. Your party has arrived on the anniversary of that event, and that explains why so many are wearing red blindfolds (of course, of such thin material they can still see through it) to honor that day."

 

If that feels forced to you, well, so be it, but the players liked it and it was a fun world crafting moment for me.

 

 

A friend recounted what happened to his character when he came out of the Houses of Healing.  They asked for a donation and he basically refused saying that the gods probably don't exist and he wasn't going to pay for them.  Well at the top of the stairs he trips over a silk scarf, rolls down the stairs, hitting every single carving and statue on the way, dislocating his shoulder, breaking a couple of ribs and the fingers of one hand.  Now he gives generously.  Still thinks gods don't exist, but goddesses:  Yeah they are totally real!