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Hero Games THACO?


dbsousa

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Roll 3d6.

 

If you roll exactly 11, you hit a DCV equal to your OCV.

If you roll below 11, you hit a DCV one point better than your OCV for each point you roll below 11.

If you roll above 11, you hit a DCV one point worse than your OCV for each point you roll above 11.

 

It sounds slightly complicated to write out in words, but it's very easy to do in play. I've never really encountered a player who struggled with it...

 

EDIT: Obviously, this is the same thing greypaladin_01 suggested above; it's just a different way of getting there that generally lets you add or subtract smaller numbers.  :) 

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8 hours ago, unclevlad said:

(my OCV - opp's DCV) + 11.  That's the target number.  Usually the OCV and DCV only differ by a couple, so that's pretty trivial, unless a whole bunch of adjustments come into play.

 

Trouble is, this requires you to know the opponent's DCV.  The other way, you can just announce what DCV you hit, and the GM can announce whether or not you succeed. You don't have to know the DCV, or whether there were any modifiers, etc.

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1 hour ago, Derek Hiemforth said:

 

Trouble is, this requires you to know the opponent's DCV.  The other way, you can just announce what DCV you hit, and the GM can announce whether or not you succeed. You don't have to know the DCV, or whether there were any modifiers, etc.

 

 

Man, I love you, Derek.

 

No; that's not sarcasm (I don't do sarcasm); that's not smarm.  That's a warm compliment of the highest order.  From the time you first pointed me to this board I-can't-remember-how-long-ago (and Red October before that), even during your absences, I would tell people just what a great guy you are, how enthusiastic and how helpful and friendly-- you're just a wonderful person, from everything I can tell, even though I can't actually say in any real sense of the word that I actually know you at all.  :lol:   Even then, I mean it when I say that I hold you in the highest regard, and have rarely missed acknowledging your help in my ending up here, and thanking you for it even when you weren't here.  (Granted, from your end, I am probably just another person who never quite made a blip on the screen, which is why I have never asked you how the rabbits are doing or if they are still around: don't want to seem all creepy ;) ).

 

That being said, I also have to say that you are not the first person to use that argument in support of the optional to-hit roll: things akin to "this way, the Player doesn't know the opponent's DCV."

 

That particular argument doesn't hold water if the combat runs for three or more attacks: while maneuvers change things up, and Skill Levels can be applied, after three back-and-forths, even the inexperienced Players will have a within-3 idea of the opponents DCV; if the combat goes on for three turns, they've had it figured out for some time now: the know the maneuver penalties and bonuses-- for most official sheets, they are right on the sheet.  We all enjoy the refrain "the math isn't that hard" in Character construction, but it's even easier when it's "add three" or "subtract 2."

 

Going just a bit further, it really doesn't matter if the Player _does_ know the opponent's DCV from the get-go: he can either hit him or he can't.  He can allocate his own Skill Levels and pick his own maneuvers, but the dice are the randomizers that determine yes or no.

 

There are lots of reasons to choose the optional method-- it's easier for some folks; it makes tracking hits and misses in high-participant-count combats a bit faster and easier, maybe.  "It just feels better to me" or "I find it easier" are all perfectly valid reasons that do hold up-- but "the Player remains in the dark" works for just a few dice throws.  After that, he either knows, or he knows enough, no matter what method you're using.

 

 

:)
 

 

 

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11 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

"the Player remains in the dark" works for just a few dice throws.  After that, he either knows, or he knows enough, no matter what method you're using.

 

Thanks for the kind words, and I completely agree with you (about the CV thing... not about me being a swell guy  ;) ).

 

I'm under no illusion that the way I described prevents the player from knowing, or that the player won't quickly figure it out, or that it's a problem if/when the player does figure it out.  My only point is just what I said: that it doesn't require the player to know the opponent's DCV.  So if you want the uncertainty for those first few dice throws, you can have it.  :) 

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I never understood the whole concept of hiding the opponents DCV from the player.  If you are trying to shoot someone you can see them moving around so should be able to get a good idea of how fast they are moving and how difficult they will be to hit.  The only exception to this is going to be if they cancel to a dodge or a block.  But at that point it does not really matter anyways because you have committed to attacking so cannot change your action.  

 

In real life you can see your opponent including when and how they move in combat.  This gives you a lot of clues on how fast they are and allows you to judge their combat ability.  In a game a player does not have this information and even if the GM is a world class author they do not have the time to describe everything.  If they try it is going to drag out the game to the point where each characters turn takes so long that the game becomes unplayable.  Telling the players what their opponents current DCV is, is a simple an elegant way of conveying to the player the information the character should have.  As long as you don’t allow the character to change their actions when the opponents cancels their action the game is not negatively affected by the players knowing the opponents DCV.  
 

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OK, to play the Devil's Advocate, should the player also know the opponent's OCV by watching how he shoots, his DCs by looking at the attack itself and his defenses, STUN and BOD by how tough he looks?  To me, these and DCV are all things that are far from obvious with that great level of precision.

 

I think "The walking heap of rock lumbers forward, while the skinny guy bobs and weaves" provides a reasonable indication that their DCVs are going to differ.  The common "how can something that big move that fast" thought in the comics suggests exact DCV is less than obvious. The Teleporter with +X DCV because he mini-'ports as the attack is launched seems like he would be less obvious.  "Wow, he's good with that shield" seems more reasonable than "well, he has a shield strapped to his arm and you just KNOW he is super-good with it so that it will add +5 to his DCV, unlike the guy last week whose shield was clearly Armor with an activation roll".

 

Starting these off as Inobvious (you can see some indications, but not assess with precision) also makes room for Analysis or similar super-skills to achieve greater precision, as well as IPE to make it even harder to tell (although not hitting is a pretty fair indication).

 

I have never found the game suffers from players gradually working out the opponent's exact DCV or their exact AC.

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The big problem with hiding the opponents CV is that it slows down the game considerably.  While some people are able to quickly figure out what the results of combat are, there are a lot of people out there that have trouble doing the math in their heads.  If the numbers are out in the open those who are better at math can help the players who are not as good with numbers. If the GM is one of those that have problems with math but insist on trying to hide the numbers it can absolutely ruin the game.  If you are using some of the more complex rules like critical hits and impairing wounds it makes it even worse.  

 

Then there is the fact that most GM’s do not have the ability to quickly and accurately describe the situation.  Take the following situation and try and describe it?  2 non-combatants trying to stay alive by dodging with a DCV of 5.  5 security guards who fired last phase so are not acting, but have a DCV of 5.  The snipper on the rooftop 100m away who is set and braced with a DCV of 3 (-5 on OCV of someone attacking them for range).  A character attacking the player with a weapon with a DCV of 6.   1 opponent that was stunned by your teammate with a DCV of 4.  And last the Boss at full dodge with a DCV of 11.  Assume combat has already begun and the character is an experience combatant with a decent number of skill levels.  You have about 30 seconds to come to describe the situation so that the player understands everything the character would but cannot use any game terms.   
 

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On 10/15/2021 at 12:20 PM, greypaladin_01 said:

I have always done something similar in my games and when teaching others to play.

(11+OCV) - 3d6 = DCV hit

 

People can adjust their math as needed and speeds things up a great deal.

That's pretty much how we have been doing it for a long time. As a player, even if they don't know their opponent's DCV, they can still roll like they would for any other skills and declare "I succeed by X" which is the same as "I hit DCV X".

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I don't think either method has too many obvious advantages or disadvantages.  And I do not think any version of Hero is inherently faster or slower than other RPG's.

 

Hero can actually be faster than most other RPG's if you factor in no time of initiative determination and no need for external references if the character sheet is actually complete.

In Hero I never had to constantly refer back to the rule book about my characters abilities.  In many games the players are constantly having to reference the "spell book" or other rule book to re-read just what an ability does.  With Hero that has always been on the character sheet.

 

For me the biggest issues with Hero is not the system or how it does combats, but in player attention and experience. 

 

If the players are invested in the game and paying attention so that when their tun arrives they can immediately indicate their action, the game moves forward.

If the player has to prompted to put down their device and then takes time to plan, the game will drag.

 

If the players are new to the system they will be uncertain and constantly be pulling out the rulebook to verify 2+2. 

Experienced players will have confidence and just play.

 

Now those two main concepts, attention and experience, apply to any RPG. 

 

To hide or not hide critical items like OCV or DCV and so on is just preference and really doesn't impact the overall game much.  Players will simply adjust their play style. 

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To be fair, there is one minor advantage to the inverted Attack Roll:

 

As the GM, one is responsible for a broad selection of actions on behalf of a large number of Characters, and the bulk of those actions (thanks to combat) are directed at the Player Characters.  No one is perfect; no one is going to remember _all_ the numbers in play at any given moment.  When I am GM'ing, I put the bulk of responsibility for tracking a Player Character's numbers on the Player of that Character.  It seems fair: I've got to keep up with thirty of them; you can keep up with the one, I think.

 

Every now and again, Villain #7 will roll his attack at Hero #4, and I will completely blank out on Hero #4's current DCV-- what was that last maneuver he declared?  Where'd he put those Skill Levels....?   Instead of stopping and asking "What's your current DCV?" and then doing a (very trivial) bit of mental math, rolling the dice, etc, I can roll the dice anyway, glance at the result and ask "what was your current DCV?  Okay, he missed."

 

Again, it's a _trivial_ bit of math, so the "advantage" of this method is extremely minor, but I cannot in good conscience say that it doesn't exist at all.

 

It works the other way around, as well, what with Players announcing things such as "I got a four..." and all I need to remember is the current DCV for the villains in play.  Again: it's still pretty minor, but it's present.

 

Now all that being said, I don't do it-- use the inverted attack roll.  No; I can't tell you why, except that we learned it one way, and we have always played it that way, and there is also an advantage in having a table full of Players of who can help the new guy because we have always done it one particular way.  This, too, is a very minor advantage, and probably only applies to those groups who habitualized the original To-Hit formula, but as above, it's slightly advantageous when the planets are aligned just so.

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1 hour ago, Duke Bushido said:

Every now and again, Villain #7 will roll his attack at Hero #4, and I will completely blank out on Hero #4's current DCV-- what was that last maneuver he declared?  Where'd he put those Skill Levels....?   Instead of stopping and asking "What's your current DCV?" and then doing a (very trivial) bit of mental math, rolling the dice, etc, I can roll the dice anyway, glance at the result and ask "what was your current DCV?  Okay, he missed."

 

9 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

The big problem with hiding the opponents CV is that it slows down the game considerably.  While some people are able to quickly figure out what the results of combat are, there are a lot of people out there that have trouble doing the math in their heads.  If the numbers are out in the open those who are better at math can help the players who are not as good with numbers. If the GM is one of those that have problems with math but insist on trying to hide the numbers it can absolutely ruin the game.  If you are using some of the more complex rules like critical hits and impairing wounds it makes it even worse.  

 

Player 1: I put 2 skill levels in OCV and 3 in DCV; I'll attack the rock-guy with an Uppercut.  That makes my OCV 11, and I roll a 13 - hits DCV 9.

 

GM: That easily hits...roll damage.

 

[several actions later]

 

GM: The rock-man lashes out trying to Grab PC 1 - good roll, he his DCV 12!

 

Player 1:  Good thing I stayed on the the defensive - he misses my 14 DCV.

 

I don't see this slowing the game.  If Player 1 sucks at math, it seems like another player can easily help him determine his OCV, add 11 and subtract 3d6 without knowing the opponent's DCV and jot down his DCV for him at his action.

 

9 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

Then there is the fact that most GM’s do not have the ability to quickly and accurately describe the situation.  Take the following situation and try and describe it?  2 non-combatants trying to stay alive by dodging with a DCV of 5.  5 security guards who fired last phase so are not acting, but have a DCV of 5.  The snipper on the rooftop 100m away who is set and braced with a DCV of 3 (-5 on OCV of someone attacking them for range).  A character attacking the player with a weapon with a DCV of 6.   1 opponent that was stunned by your teammate with a DCV of 4.  And last the Boss at full dodge with a DCV of 11.  Assume combat has already begun and the character is an experience combatant with a decent number of skill levels.  You have about 30 seconds to come to describe the situation so that the player understands everything the character would but cannot use any game terms.    

 

"The two normal-looking bystanders are panicking, weaving wildly in the street.  One is shrieking like a little girl.  Five security guards, their smoking guns indicating they have recently been fired, appear to be maintaining their composure, and are bobbing and weaving.  They look pretty skilled, comparable to VIPER agents or a SWAT team.  You rounded the corner just in time to see PC 2 blast one thug, who is reeling from the blow.  A second thug levels his gun at you -he's bobbing and weaving much like the guards. Pulsar (someone has to be the boss..."the guy in the yellow and orange costume" will do if he has not been identified) is scampering about wildly - seems like he's more focused on not being hit than counterattacking - seems pretty average agility for a Super."

 

If he wasn't looking for a sniper on the rooftops and didn't luckily roll a 3 PER roll walking around the corner, forget it!   If he did, the best he might do is the glint of a possible weapon on that rooftop WAY over there.  The distance and positioning make the difficulty hitting him quite obvious.

 

Now, if the PC had been there all along, he would have seen what each person or group did on their action, and would not need the whole paragraph at once, if the player is actually engaged in the game.

 

In any case, I'd rather have a slower combat with good descriptions and role playing than "he attacks; take 34 STUN, 8 BOD, 4 meters knockback".  If the goal is to make combat fast, just roll an opposed "Supers Combat Skill" and describe the aftermath.  What I find slows combat is poor OCV/DCV matchips (so people rarely hit) or too high a defense to DC ratio so too many hits are needed to KO.  Bumping the opponents' OCVs  up 2, and DCs up 3, offset by reducing their DCVs by 2 and their Defenses by 10 speeds those combats up quite nicely.

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I print combat maneuver cards for the players with OCV, DCV printed on them, but I use a 10+ mechanic to hit rather than a 11 or less.  So for OCV 8, the card says -2 (8), because I pre-subtract the 10.  So the character rolls 3d6, adds their OCV in this case -2, and tells me the result.  This is the DCV they hit.  I'm not a big believer in keeping DCVs hidden, but this allows you to keep it hidden if you want to and I just think this is easier.

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The simplest formula is

 

3d6+OCV >= 10+DCV

 

That's it, that's the whole thing.  Honestly, I just add 10 to everyone and everything's DCV and then it's just a 'roll to hit' mechanic with no math except one easy addition to a 3d6 roll, which is bog standard RPG mechanic stuff.  Couldn't be easier.

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35 minutes ago, Rockhoof said:

The simplest formula is

 

3d6+OCV >= 10+DCV

 

That's it, that's the whole thing.  Honestly, I just add 10 to everyone and everything's DCV and then it's just a 'roll to hit' mechanic with no math except one easy addition to a 3d6 roll, which is bog standard RPG mechanic stuff.  Couldn't be easier.

Is the equation the same as how Derek did it?

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You can eventually work out what the DCV of the target is in a few phases of combat, but that's fine.  The point isn't "never let them know" its "you just met this guy how would you know his stats?"  In combat, you'll eventually figure out your opponent's strengths and weaknesses, relative ability, etc, and you should.  That's how real life combat works.  But you don't know right at first, and that's what hiding their DCV accomplishes.

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