How would you adjudicate attacks damaging the Soul instead of the Body - mods state there is no rule so it has to be a house rule

[unclevlad]

Doesn't Need to Breathe is a common defense against many gases...those which have to be inhaled, anyway.  Some can be absorbed through the skin.  

 

Being deaf means that a sonic Flash simply does no good.  They couldn't hear anyway.  Same with being blind.  (See 6E1 226...a 2nd flash generally does nothing while the first flash is still in effect.)  It is not, automatically, Flash Defense (Hearing).  It becomes something of a tricky combo, because Flash Def (Sound) invites an AVAD, whereas Deafness would have to be NND.  A +3/4 Advantage might be AVAD vs. Flash Def (Sound) OR NND (being deaf).  If it's NND (defense is being deaf or FD: sound, it remains +1/2, because 1 point of FD: sound is orders of magnitude more common than deafness.  Taking that a step further, I wouldn't buy being blind or deaf to be adequately common...not among characters or villains...to be sufficient on its own.

 

Medusa's attack doesn't need NND, it can be defined as Transform with rather a lot of dice, and All or Nothing.  (Let's skip there's no way to recover from it, as best I can recall.  That's normal for the myth.)  It can be deflected;  the specific aspect of the Aegis was, it was a perfect reflector, so it had Reflection (gaze attacks).  IIRC, you *could* use a normal shield to protect you from the gaze...but that was a passive defense.  Come out from under its cover to attack?  OOPSIE!!!  Oh, and of course the snake hair could just bite you and well...bye-bye.  

[Doc Democracy]

5 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

I also realized that I probably misunderstood the whole lacking a thing as a Defense since Need not Breathe is viable Gas Attacks. You are paying points to be able not to breathe. Set the point aside for a second and I think many agree on how this logic doesn’t make sense. Gas attacks don’t work skeletons cause they cannot breathe but a medusa’s turn object to stone works on a blind man even though a blind man cannot see her. (Yes there is a work around).  

 

For me that particular restriction is sided at someone creating an NND power.  When you are creating a power, you should not define the defence as being a lack of something.  You should not create a power where lacking sight is a defence (forcing a weakness on an opponent).

 

That does not preclude lacking a defence, sense or something else working as a defence when that would make sense based on the SFX of the power.

 

So being deaf might protect you from a sonic NND where the SFX is maddening whispers but would nit protect you where the SFX is deeadly sonic vibrations.

 

Doc

[Duke Bushido]

On 12/19/2022 at 7:34 PM, LoneWolf said:

If you use EGO for this what happens when a different power drains EGO.  

 

Killing Attack deals BODY.

 

What happens when a different power drains BODY?

 

 

 

 

On 12/19/2022 at 7:34 PM, LoneWolf said:

 

The OP wanted to avoid drains for this attack but drains are still part of the game and EGO drains with different special effects still exist.  When you make a house rule you need to consider all the ramifications of what you are proposing to change.  Using EGO to determine when someone means that EGO suddenly becomes a lot more important and the cost for it should be adjusted.

 

 

In 6e all stats are a point per.  I don't like the loss of figureds for different reasons, but knowing sone of the people involved in the discussion that went into this change, I have to say that no matter what I think personally about 6e, this change was reasonable, and all angles were considered; I suspect even this one.

 

Before That, EGO was still priced the same as BODY.  Being at 2 BODY did not make you completely dominatable by a house cat; being at 2 EGO is akin to having no free will; and beyond acceptable, but dependent on the commands of others.  I will wager that a dead enemy is less valuable than a healthy enemy doing my bidding.

 

Yet EGO remained the same as BODY.  The only defenses for EGO were special: there was no ego-protecting equivalent to PD and ED, meaning it has always been technically _easier_ to do damage to EGO, yet it was always priced the same as BODY.

 

Ego determined its own combat value and the owner's resistance to mind control and other powers- thing for which Body has no analogue- yet it has always been priced the same.

 

We dont suggest that EGO should cost more because it can be drained, and it has always been arguably more valuable than BODY.

 

Granted, if this is the straw which breaks the GM, he is well within his rights to increase the cost of EGO, but there is nothing here that suggests it is necessary. 

 

 

On 12/19/2022 at 7:34 PM, LoneWolf said:

This comes close to making EGO a super stat that everyone needs to buy up instead of what it currently is.

 

It always has been; most people fail to realize it because the majority of supers campaigns don't feature well-thought-out mentalists, and most HERO players only think of EGO in terms,of Fantasy Magic.

 

The two best "dirty tricks" of the HERO System since the earliest days of Champions have been "Drain: EGO" and "Drain: Recovery."

 

 

 

On 12/19/2022 at 7:34 PM, LoneWolf said:

 

As to Duke Bushido’s stating spirits do not have body.  That is does not seem to be part of the rules.  I looked in the 5th edition bestiary and the Ghost is listed as having 10 Body.  From the looks of it that was from some specific supplement and should be considered a house rule.  By the book spirits have a BODY stat.  

 

By the books, that particular Ghost has a BODY value.  Again, if you want to make them all that way, that's fine.  I am not huge on bullet-vulnerable ghosts.  Yes: you need affects Desolid in your bullets.  Problematically, you can say that it is a blessed bullet.  By the same token, I can declare my taser is ADO, because it delivers electric shocks.

 

And either one of these will take out the ghost, because all you need is ADO.  Sonics, whatever- affects desolid on my throwing spork, and the ghost is toast. 

 

As someone pointed out, the original rules came from an earlier edition.  However, these rules have not been recreated- or even adressed conceptually- in a later edition.  This makes them the most current rules available forbspirits and souls,and such.

 

As someone else pointed out, they came from a supplement book that was outside the core rules book- like a genre book or a bestiary.

 

They were printed originally in the genre book Horror HERO, and were later reprinted (without genre flavor) in one of the two 4th edition HERO System Almanac books, which I submit makes them at least as much core rules to 4e as the APGs are core rules to 6e.  This is to say that sure; they are optional, but even the author points to them when answering rules questions.

 

I only suggest them because, as stated above, this concept has never been officially adressed since.

 

 

On 12/19/2022 at 7:34 PM, LoneWolf said:

 

To me the most elegant solution would be to write it up as an NND that does BODY with the defense of being object or creature without a soul or spirit.  
 

 

Fair enough.

 

Personally, I find it simpler and more in keeping with the extant concept of "buy your power and then declare your SFX and if the attack goes against PD or ED" by simply adding "Mental Defense / Ego" as an option.

 

At no time will I proclaim that it is the bestest or mostest correctest way to do it. 

 

Same thing with building spirits and souls.  By damaging EGO, you can not only affect disembodied souls, but embodied ones, too.  Using a combination of "spirits have BODY and Desolidification" and "you need Affects Desolid" to hurt a spirit or a soul means you effectively cannot harm one that is still attached to its original host.

 

It boils down to a flavor thing:

 

If you want killing ghosts to be identical to stabbing hobos, give them a BODY score and use any old Blast or Killing Attack- wind, fire-- ice is a good one, actually: even desolidied, molecules have movement, and this will stop if it gets cold enough.  For purposes of gaming the fantastic, that could be considered a feasible approach to dealing damage.

 

Looked at another way, desolidified suggests that there is a body (small 'b,' ket's just say "carcass" to avoid confusion) there, but for some reason that carcass can't be touches: molecular bonds that have relaxed; the carcass is composed of vapor or smoke; the carcass vascillates randomly between dimensional planes, and is never completely enough in any one to interact with things bound to that plane-  whatever it is you'd like.

 

_Non-corporeal_, however, implies that there is _no_ carcass to be found: the being exists because it wills itself to do so.  Willpower, in HERO, is a function of the overlooked super-stat EGO.

 

 

[Cloppy Clip]

Late to the party, but this was a really interesting discussion that opened my eyes to some new ideas. Thank you for that, everyone. indy523, were there any other key ideas you settled on for the final version of your houserules that weren't mentioned in the thread, because what you posted really got my cogs turning.

 

1 hour ago, Duke Bushido said:

As someone pointed out, the original rules came from an earlier edition.  However, these rules have not been recreated- or even adressed conceptually- in a later edition.  This makes them the most current rules available forbspirits and souls,and such.

 

As someone else pointed out, they came from a supplement book that was outside the core rules book- like a genre book or a bestiary.

 

They were printed originally in the genre book Horror HERO, and were later reprinted (without genre flavor) in one of the two 4th edition HERO System Almanac books, which I submit makes them at least as much core rules to 4e as the APGs are core rules to 6e.  This is to say that sure; they are optional, but even the author points to them when answering rules questions.

 

I only suggest them because, as stated above, this concept has never been officially adressed since.

 

Could these rules for spirits be generalised to creating templates lacking different characteristics? That sounds worth looking into, but are there any major differences (besides flavour) between the Horror HERO and Almanac versions? If not, which book would you recommend for general use when converted to 6E? And are there any other novel features like that that were never updated through the editions?

[Duke Bushido]

3 hours ago, Cloppy Clip said:

Late to the party, but this was a really interesting discussion that opened my eyes to some new ideas.

 

Thanks!  (Yes; I know there were a lot of participants, but truthfully, this is one of the more enjoyable conversations recently.  I have had a lot of fun here.)  

 

 

3 hours ago, Cloppy Clip said:

Could these rules for spirits be generalised to creating templates lacking different characteristics?

 

Of course they could.  You are gree to do whatever you like with the rules; that has been one of the themes in this thread.

 

When you gwt down to it, the Spirit rules were wssentially an outgrowth of the Automaton rules of the time.

 

More in a moment.

 

 

 

3 hours ago, Cloppy Clip said:

 

 

That sounds worth looking into, but are there any major differences (besides flavour) between the Horror HERO and Almanac versions?

 

No.  The rules themselves were unchanged.  They just changed the tasty text bits about the undead and the lost souls,and the great beyond into more matter-of-fact rules-flavored text.

 

These rules-- and understand that I have never met or spoken with the author- seemed to be an outgrowth of a sort of "movement" in that era: there were a lot if ideas beinf tossed around in the rules, in the sourcebooks, and in the old Adventurers Club magazine and on the old Red October board.

 

The general,flow of the conversation went along these lines:

 

Automata and GM-approved character concepts buy "takes no STUN, but isnt it just as practical to create a character with no STUN characteristic?  I mean, we already used modified character sheets for vehicles that feature some-but-not-all of the normal I-want-to-build-a-character type characteristics.  We use scaked down character sheets for AI and such, and we accept that a character can be an AI.  

 

Rather then building, buying, Disadvantaging, and selling our way to create an "incomplete sheet" character-

 

For example: a Voodoo Zombie: it has no EGO, as it has no will of its own.  Why build the character then sell off the EGO stat, or pile on Disadvantages and such (early name for Complications, if you are new to HERO) when we can just _not have an EGO characteristic_ for the Zombie?

 

Why have a clockwork man purchase Takes no STUN when we can simply build him without a STUN characteristic?"

 

Things along those lines.  So far as I can remember, AsmI is still built on an incomplete sheet: they were adressed in even the newest edition, while truly non-corporeal entities were never officially adressed again in any subsequent editions.  Individual pin on-corporeal characters were addresses (the above-mentioned Ghost from whatever bestiary it was found, for example).

 

There really isnt much to modify: it is extrapolation from the exisiring vehicle and AI rules: if something genuinely has no STR- no ability to interact is a physical or pseudophysical way with _anything tangible or intangible, then it very realistically has no STR characteristic.

 

Of something is incapable of any sort of though or computation, then it has no INT score.

 

The biggest thing the GM needs to be think over is the effect that this sort of character will have in the game: a character with no STUN score will be identical to a character who takes no STUN: he cannot be stunned (CON Stunned) nor can he be knocked out (barring complete loss of Endurance, and even then there is a lot of GM fiat involved in what may happen there. 

 

A Character with no DEX will be unable to move, period- at least in older editions, where DEX determined your base SPD.  A character with no SPD score will be unable to move in _any_ edition.

 

Somewhere- and given its unprecedented verbosity, it is probably available in 6e-- is a list of what happens when each Characteristic reaches 0.  Even then, not even having the Characteristic isn't quite the same as having it at zero, but it helps,give an idea of the impact such could have.

 

 

3 hours ago, Cloppy Clip said:

 

If not, which book would you recommend for general use when converted to 6E? And are there any other novel features like that that were never updated through the editions?

 

I am not sure that I understand your question.  So far as I know, there are only three true genre books available in 6e versions: Champions, Fantasy HERO, and Western HERO.  I am delighted and surprises that someone tackled Western HERO even before some version of Ninja HERO, HERO System Martial Arts in the core blue books is pretty complete, so there is likely not as pressing a need.

 

So...  Any genre book (except 4e Cyber HERO.  I _liked_ it, but it was so incomplete,that the author had planned a follow up book even before it saw publication.  His untimely death meant that it would never be finished, I am afraid.  To be honest, though, all versionw of Kazei 5 are as (and probably more, if I am being honest; I just have a habit of downvoting catgirls.  That is my own problem, and I dont expect anyone else to share it.       ) useful than 4e Cyber HERO, and of course 5e produced a very in-depth genre book kn the same subject.  Be warned that many of the 5e genre books have so many 'optional options' as to be far less,useful than they seem,when you are reading them: they are a bit like taking a sip from a fire hose.

 

The 4w books have the advantage of assuming a type of campaign, meaning you don't have to choose from a slew of options: they are chosen (and locked in) for you.  Still, you are free to make any changes you like.

 

Many people find Strikeforce more useful than I did, but I beleive that also has a 6e version, so you can go right to that.

 

Honestly, the book I think is the most useful out of all "splqtbooks" foe the HERO System was the 3e publication "lands of mystery."  There isnt much there- really! There isn't!  But what is there applies equally to any genre, and everything is provided in a super-slim meat-and-potatoes kind of way that doesnt leave the mind reeling with an overwhelmed,feeling the way the moden books,of a billion options tend to do.

 

As for what might have been omityed from 6e?

 

You would likely do better asking Lord Liaden, Chris Goodwin, or Hugh Neilson that question.  I found the time to read rhe nine blue-backed rule books (if you havent gotten it yet, I would save APG II for when you have decided to go all Pokemon and just gotta have 'em all, as it is the least idea-packed of the books)- four years?  I dont recall now, but quite some time ago.  Nothing in it excited me enough to change editions, and given my scheduling,, finding only a few minutes here and an hour there to get the reading some, it took three or four months to get it all read, and I knew I was never going to so it again.  Accordingly, I don't remeber it as well as those guys who have embraced it.  They can likely five you a better idea of what other things might not have come forward.  Chris might even enjoy discussing the  scaling of vehicle components from 3e's Robot Galdiators and Star HERO,  I know that did not move forward, even though it would have helped the vehicle rules to feel more like you were creating something concrete instead of an abstract reference to a vehicle.

 

If You do a lot of not-superheroes, as I do, I might suggest oicking up a couole of early third-party weapons books like The Armory and Guns! Guns! Guns!.  I wouldnt getcmore then a couple, because of low-end scaling issues in HERO: guns and melee weapons a) tend to have a certain "sameness."  The cure for this overall seems to be adding the odd Skill Level or PSL into the weapon itself, or the odd disadvantage.

 

I like resding early rulebooks  just to get a rwad on what the vreators intended with every subject.  As an example, there have been lots of disxyssions about how to simulate a party.  Missile Deflection and Missile Deflection (once a stand-alone ability) both state clearly that these abilities are the constructs for parrying.  Not that other ideas are wrong; I just find it interesting.

 

Sorry for the ramble; I really,did not understand the question, so I tried to,civer all the potentially-relevant bases that I could think of.

 

 

 

 

[Cloppy Clip]

Sorry for the unclear question, but you answered it much more comprehensively than I was expecting, so thank you very much! I know there's been a lot of material for the game over the years, and that broadly speaking most of it is compatible with any edition (right?), so I'm interested in what might be useful from older editions for a 6E game. I've picked up Fantasy, Star and Western HERO for 6E, but if the older genre books are still applicable like you say then I'd definitely be interested in branching out.

 

But, to answer my question of older material not represented in 6E, you've given me a lot to go off, so thank you very much. 😀

[Opal]

On 12/21/2022 at 3:28 PM, Cloppy Clip said:

Could these rules for spirits be generalised to creating templates lacking different characteristics?

"The Complete Incompletes" is a fan rule set that does so for every 4th ed/BBB characteristic.

 

Don't know where to find it...

[Cloppy Clip]

That sounds really interesting, Opal. Do you remember where it was published? I did a quick Google and wasn't able to find it, but knowing that it's out there is still very useful so thank you!

[Beast]

4 minutes ago, Cloppy Clip said:

That sounds really interesting, Opal. Do you remember where it was published? I did a quick Google and wasn't able to find it, but knowing that it's out there is still very useful so thank you!

the spirit rules are in Almanac 1(4th ed)

Spirits in the Hero System . .............................................. page 36

[Cloppy Clip]

Thank you, Beast. I notice on the store there's an Almanac 2 as well, and neither will break the bank as pdfs. Would the second one be worth picking up as well, if it's mostly going to be used for inspiration for 6th edition games?

[Beast]

there is stuff on

drugs and poisons

stats for marines and M-1 tank and M-2 APC

impossible crimes

Into the Modem Age: UNTIL Revitalized

     agents,vehicles(includes the flying sub from voyage to the bottom of the sea)

Running Cinema Campaigns!

World Security Services(possible friend or foe corp security)
 

I have both in Hard and Pdf
Almanac 1 is a great buy
Almanac 2 is good buy

 

[Cloppy Clip]

31 minutes ago, Beast said:

there is stuff on

drugs and poisons

stats for marines and M-1 tank and M-2 APC

impossible crimes

Into the Modem Age: UNTIL Revitalized

     agents,vehicles(includes the flying sub from voyage to the bottom of the sea)

Running Cinema Campaigns!

World Security Services(possible friend or foe corp security)
 

I have both in Hard and Pdf
Almanac 1 is a great buy
Almanac 2 is good buy

 

 

Thank you for the quick response, and that sounds worth looking into, especially for $5. Even if the second one is only 'good' as opposed to 'great', there could still be a lot there that's worthwhile.

[Beast]

not a problem

I hope they help

[Chris Goodwin]

On 1/24/2023 at 8:52 AM, Opal said:

"The Complete Incompletes" is a fan rule set that does so for every 4th ed/BBB characteristic.

 

Don't know where to find it...

 

That was written by James Jandebeur.  They are in Digital Hero 10, still available from Hero Games and DrivethruRPG.  I think they can be found online somewhere via the Wayback Machine, but a quick Google search isn't bringing them up anywhere but DH#10.