Variable Power Pool -- Active Point Limits On Certain Power Types

[Black Rose]

For a hypothetical VPP (60 pt pool + 60 pt control; Magic/Psychic Powers Only (-0)), how would you value a Limitation like this:

only attack powers can go to 60 AP, all other powers (Defense, Movement, Sensory, Miscellaneous) cap at 30 AP

 

TIA for the help.

[Ninja-Bear]

That sounds like a -1 at least. I’m assuming that since the attack powers can be 60 pt then that’s the campaign guideline or cap. So you’re forcing Defensive and other powers at half that. That seems pretty strong a limitation.

[LoneWolf]

Is this also being imposed on characters that are not using a VPP?  If this is a campaign wide hose rule it is not worth anything.  

 

Attack powers are usually a lot more expensive than other powers so the restriction is not as severe as it seems.   60 points of resistant DEF works out to be 20 points of both PD and ED.  That is in addition to the characters regular defenses outside the pool.  With a VPP you could also focus it all into a single DEF and go for 40 PD or 40 ED.  If you are facing an opponent who only does one type of damage and have some other defense out of the VPP that is game breaking.  Same thing with movement or other powers the ability to create exactly what you need is a huge advantage and one reason why a lot of GM’s are reluctant to allows VPP to begin with. 

 

I would actually simply consider that a good house rule for someone who wanted to use a VPP for attacks and not give any value to the limitation.  Normally I would be very hesitant to allow VPP that high, but with that stipulation I might go for it.      
 

[unclevlad]

Note that senses can't be purchased in a VPP as a rule...clairsentience being an exception.  Anything under Enhanced Senses is a Special Power.

 

If you include movement then there's a potential limitation...IF you require minimums on your base movement.  Cuz otherwise you can define megascale Flight or Teleport for next to nothing.  (3" of teleport...you get up to +9 advantages, so you can teleport a massive group anywhere on the planet.)  Defenses...not really because there are so many separate defense powers that you can buy separately.  For example:  10/10 Resistant Protection, and, say, 3/3 Damage Negation, STUN only.  

 

If you're looking at characteristics, 30 points per is huge.

 

In 6E, you can build a 60 point pool with a 30 point control cost.  Start from that basis and see what you can do with it...particularly in the potentially abusive case like this:

 

VPP, 60 Pool, 30 Control;  1/2 phase to switch (+1/2 on control cost);  common modifier on the pool, Requires a Skill Roll (-1/2).  This allows you to have 3 separate 30-point powers active at the same time.  OR, alternately, you can drop the pool size to 40 to save points.  Cost is 90 or 70.  And with either one, you can do a WHOLE heckuva lot.

 

In your notion...would Telepathy be an attack power?  Healing?  Magic pools have no implied limits on the available options, and if healing is being run by the book (re-use is the big issue) then Healing can blow up.  You might be able to talk me into a -1/4, MAYBE -1/2...but ONLY on the point cost for the 2nd 30 points of the control cost.  And I might well just say no to avoid the headache.  It's not worth it;  you're making for a level of complexity I'd prefer to pass on, and it's just saving you 5 points.  I'd far rather you built a combination of powers and SFX that define what you can do, for a full -1/4 or possibly -1/2.

[indy523]

On 10/22/2021 at 6:38 PM, unclevlad said:

You might be able to talk me into a -1/4, MAYBE -1/2...but ONLY on the point cost for the 2nd 30 points of the control cost.  And I might well just say no to avoid the headache.  It's not worth it;  you're making for a level of complexity I'd prefer to pass on, and it's just saving you 5 points.  I'd far rather you built a combination of powers and SFX that define what you can do, for a full -1/4 or possibly -1/2.

Also if I remember correctly this kind of a cap is a limitation on how you can control the points in the pool i.e. what kind of powers you kind purchase.  The book example is limiting to specific special effects buy I think full 60 points of control only for attack powers counts as this so the limitation is only on the control.

 

Let us be generous and give this a -1/2L for sake of argument (I wouldn't but whatever).  So this is 60/(1.5) or 40 points for the pool which is still 100 RP.  Not so sure it would be worth it.

 

I think a better choice would be to have the VPP still cast spells.  The character can learn spells from a book and change them daily by memorizing the spell giving a  -1/4L on the control.  They can research new spells which could take days (-1/2L to months -1L on the control but this is only to add a spell to his book and a Power roll -1/2L on control but this is just to add spells to a book so make the total lim -1/4L to -1/2L).  Probably only worth -1/4L because while all of those are very limiting it only hampers the invention of new spells added to the list.  With a Power roll and time spells found could be more easily incorporated.  The -1/4L reflects the overall minor inconvenience of this.

 

The Major limitation would be the set total number of spells that character knows for his VPP.  Each one a different slot if you will that can picked for the day.  IF this is say 4 at character creation then this is a -1L very limited class of powers.  It represents that at one time the character can only know four spells or powers, to change and add more he has to lose a spell.  Overtime with EP the character can add slots or spells that can be known and as he does the limitation drops from -1L to -3/4L to -1/2L then -1/4L and might actually become an advantage given the character is now an archmage with dozens to hundreds of spells at his disposal.

 

Part of this could be defining point limitations for spells of certain types such as attacks or even blasts or fire powers etc. This could be controlled by how many points the character purchases in a KS: for that type of magic.  Say KS: Fire Magic at 11- (2 points) gives 10 points limitation.  Each +1 to the KS: in question adds ten points to the total allowed 20, 30 etc. to a total of 60 points for the control at say 8 points KS: Fire Magic 11- base plus +6 to the roll costs 8 points and makes the roll 17-.

 

I would say these would be better ways to control what is in the pool and the character can alter the level in game with experience by raising the Power skill, raising the knowledge skills and buying down the -1L on the pool to add to total spells known or even buying up as an advantage in game and it can reflect the study and roleplaying in the game. 

 

Plus if it is a fantasy game the character is motivated to search for and trade for spell books to justify raising their power levels.

[unclevlad]

Pricing doesn't work that way.  

 

The cost for the pool size never changes.  It's always 1 point for 1 point of pool size.  As you note, that is Real Points, so in a 60 point pool, you can have a pair of 60 point powers when each has -1 in limitations.  

 

The base cost for the control aspect is 1/2 the max active points of the power...30 points in this case.  THEN it's tweaked by advantages and limitations.

 

In a VPP, limitations come in 4 flavors:

 

1.  VPP advantages and limitations.  These affect the control cost only and describe what and how the VPP can do.  No skill roll to change powers, half phase or no phase, and limits on the powers in the VPP are of this type.  

 

2.  Common limitations.  These automatically apply to all powers in the VPP.  The value of common limitations is also applied to the control cost.

 

3.  Common advantages.  These are a tad weird.  Not a lot, but a tad.  What they do is to make the given advantage "free"...it's already paid for.  The active points of a power can exceed the control cost when that is the result of the common advantage only.  Reduced END is probably the most common.  This one's always been squirrelly for me.

 

4.  Advantages and limitations on individual powers.  These pretty much run as normal.  Just remember to apply the common mods.  VPP-only mods do NOT apply.

 

So to give an example I might use...in the order I might need it.

 

1.  Control cost:  69 or 70 points.  That's 55 with 1/2 END (69_, so 11 dice, or 13 or 14 dice if I'm willing to pay full END.  

2.  VPP mods:  most of the time, 1/2 phase to switch powers.  Also may include something to limit the powers available.  Depends on purpose.

3.  Common mods:  hey, since you haven't paid to eliminate the skill roll (which would be +1 on the control cost) then make the skill roll do double duty.  Requires a Skill Roll, -1/2.  Others are entirely possible, but it depends on what you want to include.

4.  Real cost.  Depends again on what you want to include.  Let's say this is a versatile energy projector type.  So, let's go with, let's say, 10/10 Resistant and 4/4 Damage Negation, STUN ONLY.  It's a nice combo when you've got some other baseline defenses, but if this is still a fairly major component of your defenses, drop the Stun Only.  It won't save you that much anyway because the RSR is in place.  Then an attack power set...say, Blasts, Flashes, and RKAs.  Let's also plan to assign at least a -1/4 limitation on these attack powers to have -3/4 total limitations here.  They won't be Common Mods because they can't be used on the defenses.  3 good candidates are beam, limited range, and reduced penetration...take whichever you like.  (I almost always apply limited range because the range mods are a killer when you're shooting past what's allowed by limited range.)  Last, Flight...let's allocate 45 active.

 

So pool size:

Offense:  70 points with -3/4 --> 40 points

Defense:  Resistant protection is 30 with -1/2 --> 20.  Damage Negation is 40, which goes to 27 without or 20 with Stun Only.  Like I said, not a huge difference.

Flight:  45 with -1/2 --> 30.

 

So the overall pool size would be 110 or 117.  The control cost is 1/2 of 70 or 35;  +1/2 for half phase, -1/2 for RSR common mod.  35.  The skill roll?  Buying it to 14- for the attack power means 21-.  That's 6-8 levels, most likely, so 15-19 points.  Me...by the time I've gone that far, an extra 2 levels is a strong investment in reliability.

 

If that is too high, then maybe 45 points is excessive on the flight...?  I tossed that out off the top of my head but how about 31?  20 meters, Position Shift (handy as heck for flyers) and 1/2 END is 31.  High-speed cross country flight might gets done separately...10 meters, x 16 noncombat is 25, so half end is 31.  I loathe Megascale on flight as it's TOO MUCH...15 meters, with base megascale 1m = 1 km, and a 4 SPD is 5 km *per second*...about 11,000 mph, or about Mach 14.  But...whatever.  Point is, you just build it as a separate power, it's in a VPP, you're done.  

31 points for the Flight would --> 20, so your pool size drops by 10.  Might be needed.