Clairsentience No Range to begin with but a mobile Per Point that can move to normal range over time

[indy523]

Here is a weird take but I am not sure how to cost the limitations.

 

I have a Clairsentience bought for Normal sight, normal hearing and smell.  The character spends 90 points total for the power but 25 of that is for x32 range.

It also includes a mobile perception point for 5 and x8 movement speed for 20.

 

I assume the mobile is added to base so range is 65 *10 x32 or 20.8km (20800m).  The sensor point moves at 12 x 8 or 96m meaning it takes 216&2/3 phases to get from his starting point to the end of his range.

 

No Range is a -1/2L however the sensor can move to the entire range it just takes a long time and dismissing the sensor means it starts again where he is and must move to the new location.  This is not a -0L.  I am splitting the difference to make it a -1/4L but am not sure how this is ruled.

 

Also minor point but I assume the adder is added to the base for range but I could not find anything for or against so I don't know.  If it is removed from the base power then the total range out will be 45 x 10 x 32 or 14.4 km and walking the sensor to the end of the range of the clairsentience would take 150 phases.  If that matters.

 

Does this make sense or is there another way this should be done.

[LoneWolf]

That is not how clairsentience works.  The mobile perception point simply allows you to move it without restarting the power.  Normally if you want to move your perception point you have to stop the power and restart it again.  That may mean making a new targeting roll to properly place the perception point but more importantly any limitation you put on it to start it would have to be done again.  For example if you put extra time you have to spend that time to bring it back up.  Mobile perception point does not increase the range at all.  So no range makes clairsentience useless.  You could probably use a ¼ limitation no initial range, but No range does not work.

[Hugh Neilson]

Agreed with LoneWolf.  This is a significant reduction to the value of Range, but not the elimination of range,, so -1/4 is appropriate.

[unclevlad]

Side point first...adders do not increase base cost for the purpose of determining range.  6E1, page 129.  There are some ambiguities here;  there are things where the intent is not clear.  For example, on clairsentience, does adding another sense count as increasing the base cost, and thereby the range?  I asked, and Derek said yes.  There's some other cases.

 

On the flip side, tho, a mobile perception point is explicitly an adder, so it does not, by the rules.  Neither does the extra range.  The additional senses do, so your range is 30 * 10 *32, or 9.6 km.

 

Yes, it bites.  It's extremely hard to build any clairvoyant...probably because they're such potential game-wreckers.  I've done it by dropping as much as I could OUT of the clairsentience, and into the sense(s).  That lets me slap MegaScale onto it, but it's still expensive as heck.  But it's intended as a very high-powered character;  his major powers are the clairsentience, and teleport using gates.  (Yes, the clairsentience is targeting.)  

 

I'm going to disagree with the other two.  Back to page 129:

 

Quote

If a Power has No Range, the character using it does not have to remain in HTH Combat range with the target to maintain the effect — he only has to be in HTH Combat range to use it. Once the Power takes effect, the character can distance himself from the target (though in the case of Constant Powers, he still has to maintain Line Of Sight to keep the Power  functioning).

So by analogy, the perception point appears at the current location.  The power user can then, by this, move away from that point...the target location doesn't move.  So the perception point, on this argument, does NOT always remain adjacent.  If we accept things so far, then there's no sound reason to assert that the perception point can't get moved.

 

And note that it's still a severe limit.  Perception point mobility is expensive, and it's bloody SLOW.  (Or you're spending a fair bit on that mobility.)  LOS has to be maintained, which is a significant reduction in applicability...it can't pass through a wall, for example, or turn a corner.  He's bought 96 meters of movement, so it'll take 100 phases to get this to max range.  100 phases of very high END costs, too.

 

So I think this is legal, and generally should be balanced.

 

Side point 2:  base Clairsentience covers a sense group.  Might as well make it the sight or hearing groups;  as written, it looks like you made it smell.  Sure, fine, but it's so hard to build this power in the first place, I don't want to gimp it unnecessarily.

 

[indy523]

On 11/7/2021 at 12:56 AM, LoneWolf said:

That is not how clairsentience works.  The mobile perception point simply allows you to move it without restarting the power.  Normally if you want to move your perception point you have to stop the power and restart it again.  That may mean making a new targeting roll to properly place the perception point but more importantly any limitation you put on it to start it would have to be done again.  For example if you put extra time you have to spend that time to bring it back up.  Mobile perception point does not increase the range at all.  So no range makes clairsentience useless.  You could probably use a ¼ limitation no initial range, but No range does not work.

I understand that you have to restart the power.  That is my point.  The idea is that the sensor must always start from where he is physically located and then can move out to where the range of the clairsentience ends.  That is the limitation.

 

That is a good point that no range may mean it can't move out of 0m but I don't see it that way.  The No Range limitation means that it can only be placed at no range i.e. the point the person initiates the power.  The mobile sensor allows the character to move it which is 96m a phase because the speed is bought up from 12.  Thus it takes 150 phases to get to the end of the range which is the power's limitation.  I think you are reading the limitation to literally.  

 

I don't think a 0L limitation is fair in this case.  The limitation is actually hindering the character as designed.  Essentially this is a form of Astral Projecting as I am writing the splat part of the power.  He has senses but his spirit has to walk them.

[indy523]

7 hours ago, unclevlad said:

On the flip side, tho, a mobile perception point is explicitly an adder, so it does not, by the rules.  Neither does the extra range.  The additional senses do, so your range is 30 * 10 *32, or 9.6 km.

 

7 hours ago, unclevlad said:

 

I left out the fact that I was buying this power as dimensional related group of dimensions (material or our plane, the prime ethereal plane which is a psychic mirror of the real, and deep ethereal and astral which are essentially pathways to outside the prime.  I posted a discussion of this to define a power I was asking about before.  So with this the cost is 45.

 

Dimensional is not an adder but listed as a power modifier.  This is why I think it adds to the range of the clairsentience power.  I am writing this up for a villain type character.  It is a form of astral projection.

 

The power has a sensor that can move that represents the character using it's spirit sense.  In the ethereal plane it creates a replica of the character as an image that moves with the character.  This is the reason the sensor always starts from where the character using the power is located i.e. no range.  The issue is that players may not wish to buy the power as I have defined it as it is quite expensive.  The images are linked to the clairsentience (always at the sensor point) but having to buy them out to the range of the clairsentience power is what drives the cost up.

 

I am finding that using the rules limit somewhat in this case but I guess creating a psychic body that can walk 14 km away from your body and project a psychic version of yourself even in a spiritual based occult campaign should not be easy.  This character buys the limitation as Concentration 1/2 DC meaning that he can react in the real world and still notes what goes on around his body.  A PC could buy this power as Concentration 0 DCV and unaware of surroundings to make it cheaper in real points.  The issue is that it still costs a great deal of endurance.  

 

I imagine I could make this easier on players by placing in my game psychic talismans they can buy.  This would be one use End Batteries they can use while they psychic project that only feed the ability to walk the soul out.

 

NOTE:  I am OK with the power being 14 km and not anywhere through mind scan or something in this case  because I view the ethereal plane as similar to the real material one.  One walks through it all the time even if you can't see it and if one can transverse the dimension to affect it even walk outside into the realm of pure spirit not attached to the real material plane but it still takes effort.  

 

I could I guess allow PC's to take megascale for this to move out to where ever they wanted but I don't think I would allow the mobile perception point to move at megascale rates on its own.  I would require a focus.  Also megascale would be defined as unsafe.  If your range is say 14 km as above and you end the power abruptly your soul pops back into your body.  If you are outside that normal scale 14km however using megascale then you have to get back to wihin 14km before you end the power or you risk losing your body and becoming a disembodied spirt.  Your body ends up in a coma and you have to make it back within a certain time limit or you die.

 

Any rate this is what I want the power for.

Edited November 8, 2021 by indy523
spelling errors

[unclevlad]

I can probably accept Dimensional affecting range.  It is, however, ambiguous as to how it works.  The underlying mechanics are not explicitly defined, as far as I know.

 

I brought up megascale just to point out that if you want serious range, it's often the far cheaper option.  

 

You're basically defining standard astral projection, sounds like...altho that's often 0 DCV and even the full Totally Unaware, -3/4 version.  In Shadowrun, that's a standard caster power...but by the same token, magic is fundamental, so methods to *block* astral perceivers are more common.  It also has its own risks;  astral encounters are quite possible.  But there's nothing inherently "easy" or "hard" about it...the cost is an attempt to measure the impact.  Clairsentience that's very hard to stop, has high impact.  That's why, I think, it was made so expensive.

 

As a thought:  since it's defined as extra-dimensional, you might want to define it from that basis.  Specifically, I'm thinking the Cyberspace power...sidebar on p. 223 of 6E1.  You need to define extra-dimensional sensing on your senses as well, but they mention a big modifier.  

[LoneWolf]

No range reduces the range of the power to 0.  Clairsentience is quite specific that the perception point has to be within the range of the power.  The mobile perception point also states that it cannot move beyond the maximum range of the Clairsentience.  Applying  the No Range limitation on Clairsentience renders the power useless.  

 

While you cannot apply No Range you can use Limitation Limited power to state the perception point always starts at the character.   How much of a limitation that is will be up to the GM.  Personally I would rate it as about ¼ due to how fast you can move it.  If the speed of the mobile perception point was slower it would be worth more of a limitation.     
 

Clairsentience can also use the adders for enhanced senses to allow it to perceive other dimensions. So to perceive into a related group of dimensions is +10 points. 

[unclevlad]

The language is at best ambiguous.  I have no problem handling it as stated, and for a -1/2 limitation.  It's NOT cheap to do it this way. particularly with the increased max range.

 

Note that even without increased max range...with base 200m range and base 12m movement, that's 25 points to see anywhere in range.  If it has to start at 0 range, it takes 16 phases to move out.  How is this NOT worth -1/2?  You could call it Extra Phase, only to activate, and you'd get -1/2 and see anywhere in that range in 2 phases rather than 16.  Buy more speed on the mobile perception point?  Expensive.  And even another 10 points for x4 would require 4 phases to get out to max range, costing 2/3 of 35 or 23 points.  

 

And that's assuming no other limitations.  He's got -3/4 for full concentration, yep.  Missed that earlier.  The fact that it's astral projection is actually just SFX;  the dimensional sight is NOT required.  So he's got 75 points (senses 30, range 25, movement 20).  With only the concentration, the cost is 4/7 * 75 or 43.  With No Range and the conditions inferred from page 129, it's a -1 1/4 limit.  4/9 of 75 is 33 or 34

 

So he's saving all of 10 points for a power that takes an extremely long time to move out enough to be any good.  Heck, I'd even argue that the power build makes little sense, as it takes TOO long to go out that far, unless the psychic is typically staying behind, and the rest of the PCs actually have 2-4 minutes for him to move that way.  Or they have to haul his dead weight around, and make sure it remains safe.  AND he's got to somehow cover the END cost.

 

Of course, all of this also just goes to suggest Extra-Dimensional Movement, with enhanced movement only in the XD space, and with senses extending back...sure sounds a WHOLE lot simpler and less ambiguous.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           

 

 

[Hugh Neilson]

It seems like a better build might be Clairsentience with Extra Time.  That would also allow each range increase to have steadily increasing Extra Time increments.  The extra time simply reflects how long it takes the perception point to get where it's going.  The pricing seems like it would be much more in line with the value of the ability.

[unclevlad]

6 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

It seems like a better build might be Clairsentience with Extra Time.  That would also allow each range increase to have steadily increasing Extra Time increments.  The extra time simply reflects how long it takes the perception point to get where it's going.  The pricing seems like it would be much more in line with the value of the ability.

 

An interesting thought but the time chart granularity isn't very good.  Plus, the cost savings don't feel like they're that great, as the cost savings only comes on the increased range.

 

I'm also not quite sure how to define the base power.  The power's still quite useful at minimal range...what's going on across the hall?  OP's notion is this would take an activation and a half move.  Whereas moving out all the way to the basic max range would take several phases.

 

Rather than this, perhaps just make it a custom limitation.  The perception point originates adjacent to the power source, and must move from there at its mobility rate.  What's that worth?  Extra phase is -3/4;  that gives a range of ~ 200 meters.  1 minute would be -1 1/2;  mobility depends on speed now, but let's say a 5 SPD.  25 phases in a minute * 96 meters/phase...2400 meters.  And that's just a fraction of the range.  You're looking at over 5 minutes quite often.  

 

I'd figure anything in the -1 to -1 1/2 range...?  

[Hugh Neilson]

16 hours ago, unclevlad said:

 

An interesting thought but the time chart granularity isn't very good.  Plus, the cost savings don't feel like they're that great, as the cost savings only comes on the increased range.

 

I'm also not quite sure how to define the base power.  The power's still quite useful at minimal range...what's going on across the hall?  OP's notion is this would take an activation and a half move.  Whereas moving out all the way to the basic max range would take several phases.

 

 

Emphasis added.  If the power is still quite useful at minimal range, then the cost of using the power only at minimal range should reflect that.

16 hours ago, unclevlad said:

 

Rather than this, perhaps just make it a custom limitation.  The perception point originates adjacent to the power source, and must move from there at its mobility rate.  What's that worth?  Extra phase is -3/4;  that gives a range of ~ 200 meters.  1 minute would be -1 1/2;  mobility depends on speed now, but let's say a 5 SPD.  25 phases in a minute * 96 meters/phase...2400 meters.  And that's just a fraction of the range.  You're looking at over 5 minutes quite often.  

 

I'd figure anything in the -1 to -1 1/2 range...?  

 

How much would you say the power would be worth if it required a full phase to activate and could only be used within, say, 100 meters?  If it can be used within 100 meters with a full phase to activate AND can be used at greater distances by adding more time, that should have an incrementally higher cost, should it not?

[unclevlad]

Sure, but how often does that minimal range come into play?  ESPECIALLY with a x32 range?  

 

I'd also prefer to avoid a power that takes 2 paragraphs to detail.  Simpler is preferable.  And it has fewer holes.  At the very least, he's got 300 meters range.  If it's just full phase to activate, then the power reaches 300 meters in that phase.  That's NOT the case when it starts adjacent then moves out...it's 3 phases, not 1.  So what is the limitation on the base power before we even get into the range mods?

 

And on those range mods...which means you're buying naked adders with limitations, which is not defined...any Extra Time you define is at best an average anyway.  

 

So, fine...Keep It Simple.  Define one easily understood, short limitation that captures the essence.  We're not building some model, we're playing the game.  Rather than worry about perfect pricing that doesn't even give a great mechanical fit...give a simple expression that'll probably be pretty close on price, that everyone understands, and that mechanically does exactly what OP wants.

[Grailknight]

It seems to me that -1/4 Limited Power, No Initial Range is probably the way to go here. Yes, it may take Turns to reach whatever maximum range is finally purchased,  but I can't see giving it more because this is not a combat power.

 

Combat in Hero is on such a fast scale that it skews the perception of out of combat time. A five turn combat is the climax of a superhero movie but it's only one minute of elapsed time by RAW. The Limitation is really only a minor nuisance unless you are in combat.

 

How often will a need to scan an area out of the perception point's mobility instantly come into play? Just one doubling to 24 meters will cover most small buildings and moving to 48 meters will cover anything but the largest complexes. Barring some other Limitation, there's no real change in how the Power functions besides not being able to establish it at maximum range upon activation.

[Hugh Neilson]

16 hours ago, unclevlad said:

Sure, but how often does that minimal range come into play?  ESPECIALLY with a x32 range?  

 

I'd also prefer to avoid a power that takes 2 paragraphs to detail.  Simpler is preferable.  And it has fewer holes.  At the very least, he's got 300 meters range.  If it's just full phase to activate, then the power reaches 300 meters in that phase.  That's NOT the case when it starts adjacent then moves out...it's 3 phases, not 1.  So what is the limitation on the base power before we even get into the range mods?

 

And on those range mods...which means you're buying naked adders with limitations, which is not defined...any Extra Time you define is at best an average anyway.  

 

So, fine...Keep It Simple.  Define one easily understood, short limitation that captures the essence.  We're not building some model, we're playing the game.  Rather than worry about perfect pricing that doesn't even give a great mechanical fit...give a simple expression that'll probably be pretty close on price, that everyone understands, and that mechanically does exactly what OP wants.

 

Emphasis added.  If "pretty close" is good enough, it's OK to be "pretty close, even if it's a little too expensive".  That is more consistent with advantage and limitation pricing in general (7 charges gets the ;limitation for 8 charges, not 6 charges).

 

The OP has already suggested a simple expression based on that rationale:

 

On 11/6/2021 at 7:37 PM, indy523 said:

I have a Clairsentience bought for Normal sight, normal hearing and smell.  The character spends 90 points total for the power but 25 of that is for x32 range.

It also includes a mobile perception point for 5 and x8 movement speed for 20.

 

I assume the mobile is added to base so range is 65 *10 x32 or 20.8km (20800m).  The sensor point moves at 12 x 8 or 96m meaning it takes 216&2/3 phases to get from his starting point to the end of his range.

 

No Range is a -1/2L however the sensor can move to the entire range it just takes a long time and dismissing the sensor means it starts again where he is and must move to the new location.  This is not a -0L.  I am splitting the difference to make it a -1/4L but am not sure how this is ruled.

 

There are a variety of -1/4 range-related limitations in the RAW.  They are all "more limiting than the standard range rules but less limiting than having no range at all", which leaves no options other than -1/4.  That is a simple approach which is priced in the ballpark, so I see no problem stopping there - apply a -1/4 limitation and move on.

 

With a SPD 2, the power as described reaches its full range in 109 turns, or 21.6 minutes.  With a higher SPD, it will get there faster - under 5 minutes at SPD 5, for example.  If that were pure extra time, it would be a -1 1/2 to -2 1/2 limitation, halved to -3/4 to -1 1/4 as it is Only to Activate.  But it's less extra time if it's not going out to the extreme edge of its range, and the sensor can perceive along the way as well, which may be advantageous (for example, I know if there are any dangers on the way to the extreme end of my range), and requires no Extra Time.

 

Looking at something several km away is unlikely to take place in combat conditions, making Extra Time a lot less limiting than it would otherwise be.  Find a safe location within 20 km of the target and manifest the perception point. So that Extra Time really is not going to be very limiting, very often.  As a minor limitation, I'm back to -1/4 being pretty reasonable.

 

I would not say the power loses more than a fourth of its overall effectiveness, and even that is probably generous,  but -0 seems overly stingy so...oh look!...we are back to -1/4.

[unclevlad]

Then we simply disagree on the degree of loss and applicability.  I don't think it's minor at all; you do.  And we analyze based on differing thought processes.

 

OP can take his pick.

[indy523]

On 11/11/2021 at 10:36 AM, Grailknight said:

It seems to me that -1/4 Limited Power, No Initial Range is probably the way to go here. Yes, it may take Turns to reach whatever maximum range is finally purchased,  but I can't see giving it more because this is not a combat power.

 

Combat in Hero is on such a fast scale that it skews the perception of out of combat time. A five turn combat is the climax of a superhero movie but it's only one minute of elapsed time by RAW. The Limitation is really only a minor nuisance unless you are in combat.

 

How often will a need to scan an area out of the perception point's mobility instantly come into play? Just one doubling to 24 meters will cover most small buildings and moving to 48 meters will cover anything but the largest complexes. Barring some other Limitation, there's no real change in how the Power functions besides not being able to establish it at maximum range upon activation.

The idea I am going for is a kind of astral projection.  The character is a high cost super villain.  The idea is that instead of leaving his body behind his soul walks out into the ethereal prime which is defined as adjacent everywhere to the material world.  So I think he has a concentration limitation making his real body at 1/2 DCV as he focuses on the perception point instead of being completely removed as the power would work as an astral body for a player character.

 

The perception point moves out at the rate his soul can walk and when the power ends his soul pops back to his body.  I am considering a mega scale version of the power as well that requires a separation that leave his body lifeless once he is outside that 14 km upper range for the other power or something but I have not worked that out.  

 

The idea is the villain has clairsentience and mind scan.  The mind scan is limited to a LOS link to the Clairsentience perception point.  He can only affect minds he can see from that point as if he were walking which allows the villain to control people or mental blast from the ether.  I have some ideas for limitations that allow mental attacks to come back to affect him when the mind scan is active.

 

The whole idea is a villain so versed in astral projection he can walk away from his body without leaving him unaware or helpless although limited by 1/2 DCV for concentration (for his real body) and fly around the ethereal plane within a few kilometers of his body which is why the x32 range.  He can use mind scan to target any minds that his clairsentience perception can see are there to attack with mental powers as per mind scan rules.  Thus the villain can do more than spying.  As it is a spirit based occult superhero game the characters in the party should have powers that can find him.

 

Once the villain's body is located he is weaker against physical and energy attacks so the idea is the party has to deal with his super astral form to find where he is and case his underground fortress at the end of the adventure.

 

I know it is complicated but the limitations and advantages are not just being thrown there.  I am trying to develop a defined power, just one that takes some modifications in order to work. 

[Sean Waters]

On 11/10/2021 at 2:13 AM, Hugh Neilson said:

It seems like a better build might be Clairsentience with Extra Time.  That would also allow each range increase to have steadily increasing Extra Time increments.  The extra time simply reflects how long it takes the perception point to get where it's going.  The pricing seems like it would be much more in line with the value of the ability.

 

That's probably an accurate way to do it but it would be a messy build because there would have to be different limitations on different adders and would sacrifice granularity.  

 

It may not be an entirely legal build but I'd definitely allow -1/2 no range and the mobile perception point to travel out to what the range would have been.  It makes sense and is only not technically possible because the power was not written with that in mind rather than because it is unbalancing.

 

I mean it is a constant power so there's no reason, if you bought it with no range, why you could not switch it on then walk away from it and still perceive from the same point and range be hanged: range relates to where you create the effect, not where you are in relation to it at some later point in time.  The injunction to not have a mobile perception point travel beyond maximum range is probably unnecessary even from a balance point of view.  It would be weird if you could buy clairsentience with no range and walk away, but if you added mobile perception it would have to follow you and if you walked too fast it would stop working.

[Grailknight]

13 hours ago, indy523 said:

The idea I am going for is a kind of astral projection.  The character is a high cost super villain.  The idea is that instead of leaving his body behind his soul walks out into the ethereal prime which is defined as adjacent everywhere to the material world.  So I think he has a concentration limitation making his real body at 1/2 DCV as he focuses on the perception point instead of being completely removed as the power would work as an astral body for a player character.

 

The perception point moves out at the rate his soul can walk and when the power ends his soul pops back to his body.  I am considering a mega scale version of the power as well that requires a separation that leave his body lifeless once he is outside that 14 km upper range for the other power or something but I have not worked that out.  

 

The idea is the villain has clairsentience and mind scan.  The mind scan is limited to a LOS link to the Clairsentience perception point.  He can only affect minds he can see from that point as if he were walking which allows the villain to control people or mental blast from the ether.  I have some ideas for limitations that allow mental attacks to come back to affect him when the mind scan is active.

 

The whole idea is a villain so versed in astral projection he can walk away from his body without leaving him unaware or helpless although limited by 1/2 DCV for concentration (for his real body) and fly around the ethereal plane within a few kilometers of his body which is why the x32 range.  He can use mind scan to target any minds that his clairsentience perception can see are there to attack with mental powers as per mind scan rules.  Thus the villain can do more than spying.  As it is a spirit based occult superhero game the characters in the party should have powers that can find him.

 

Once the villain's body is located he is weaker against physical and energy attacks so the idea is the party has to deal with his super astral form to find where he is and case his underground fortress at the end of the adventure.

 

I know it is complicated but the limitations and advantages are not just being thrown there.  I am trying to develop a defined power, just one that takes some modifications in order to work. 

 

So he'll use this in combat but only if the combat is at the time and place of his choosing? Given perfect conditions, where's the drawback?

 

-1/4 is the most I'd give that. It does hamper the startup of the power somewhat, but it's part of the planning. He wouldn't use it in a chance encounter even if it wasn't limited.  Concentration is the Limitation that has the most bearing on this Power and the pricing there is fine for the hampering caused. 

 

 

[Sean Waters]

Look. It comes down to this: does Clairsentience with no range just mean you can sense what your can sense anyway from where you are anyway?

 

That would be silly so it can't be right, right?

[Grailknight]

5 hours ago, Sean Waters said:

Look. It comes down to this: does Clairsentience with no range just mean you can sense what your can sense anyway from where you are anyway?

 

That would be silly so it can't be right, right?

 

It's not No Range, it's No Initial Range. He can move his perception point after he starts it.

[unclevlad]

2 hours ago, Grailknight said:

 

It's not No Range, it's No Initial Range. He can move his perception point after he starts it.

 

 But he's allowed to move away from the initial point in a power with No Range.  Why NOT have the converse, when you're paying big points to make it mobile?  The mobility isn't free.  And, sure, if you wanna make it complicated, you put it on the mobility angle only, but that to me is just too much of a PITA. 

 

What it comes down to, is whether you treat the effect on the whole power synergistically, or you're trying to  split the hairs on the rules.  I'd rather go heuristic and synergistic, and IMO the overall power becomes GREATLY limited if the initial point of origin is adjacent to you.

[Sean Waters]

10 hours ago, Grailknight said:

 

It's not No Range, it's No Initial Range. He can move his perception point after he starts it.

 

I think technically not because the perception point can only move out to the maximum range, according to the wording under 'Mobile Perception Point', of the power which would be zero.  I think that is silly and it should be interpreted as 'no initial range' as you suggest which would require a rethink of how far the mobile perception point could travel - presumably as far as it would be able to if the power did not have 'no range'.

 

6E1 180: A mobile perception point can move up to 12m per Phase, and travels in three dimensions (i.e., it can “fly”), but cannot move beyond the maximum range of the Clairsentience.

 

This does sort of conflict with the entry for 'no range' as specific rules trump general rules:

 

6E1 388: If a Constant Power takes this Limitation, the character only has to be at HTH Combat range to activate/use the power. After that, the distance between him and his victim doesn’t matter.

 

It is a matter of interpretation but I would interpret it generously, as I suspect you would, so that you get No Range at the full -1/2, which means you have to create the perception point where you are, but you can then move it, which you are separately paying to do.

 

One slight issue is that MPP is an Adder, which means you would be getting a discount on the cost of the adder for 'no range', which does feel like double dipping because the limitation won't affect the MPP so you probably shouldn't be allowed to reduce the cost of the Adder with that limitation.

 

In passing it seems silly that Adders do not count toward the range calculation given that (per 6E1 313) they increase active cost.  It feels arbitrary.

 

It might be because some adders are range multipliers and you'd be getting even more range if you included the adder in the range calculation, but so what?  If you are doubling range anyway a bit more isn't going to affect game balance and it would make the rules more internally consistent.

 

I do sometimes wish that the column inches devoted to repeating the phrase 'common and dramatic sense' were instead devoted to explaining some of the design considerations.

 

I digress...
 

[Grailknight]

10 hours ago, unclevlad said:

 

 But he's allowed to move away from the initial point in a power with No Range.  Why NOT have the converse, when you're paying big points to make it mobile?  The mobility isn't free.  And, sure, if you wanna make it complicated, you put it on the mobility angle only, but that to me is just too much of a PITA. 

 

What it comes down to, is whether you treat the effect on the whole power synergistically, or you're trying to  split the hairs on the rules.  I'd rather go heuristic and synergistic, and IMO the overall power becomes GREATLY limited if the initial point of origin is adjacent to you.

 

How is it greatly limited? He can still move the perception point anywhere within his maximum range. By his own description of the villain, he intends to engage his foes at long distance only as he's vulnerable if they can attack his actual body. So until that final battle where he's captured he'll always have had some time to establish a safe distance or he won't engage the PC's. Even if he's only one turn of movement away, he's out of LOS and there's no way to track him down

 

No Range is only -1/2 and this version is definitely less limiting and as for the character sheet complications:

 

Limited Power, No Initial Range:-1/4 doesn't bother me more than No Range:-1/2 especially when it better describes the Power as the creator intended it to function. 

 

3 hours ago, Sean Waters said:

 

I think technically not because the perception point can only move out to the maximum range, according to the wording under 'Mobile Perception Point', of the power which would be zero.  I think that is silly and it should be interpreted as 'no initial range' as you suggest which would require a rethink of how far the mobile perception point could travel - presumably as far as it would be able to if the power did not have 'no range'.

 

6E1 180: A mobile perception point can move up to 12m per Phase, and travels in three dimensions (i.e., it can “fly”), but cannot move beyond the maximum range of the Clairsentience.

 

This does sort of conflict with the entry for 'no range' as specific rules trump general rules:

 

6E1 388: If a Constant Power takes this Limitation, the character only has to be at HTH Combat range to activate/use the power. After that, the distance between him and his victim doesn’t matter.

 

It is a matter of interpretation but I would interpret it generously, as I suspect you would, so that you get No Range at the full -1/2, which means you have to create the perception point where you are, but you can then move it, which you are separately paying to do.

 

One slight issue is that MPP is an Adder, which means you would be getting a discount on the cost of the adder for 'no range', which does feel like double dipping because the limitation won't affect the MPP so you probably shouldn't be allowed to reduce the cost of the Adder with that limitation.

 

In passing it seems silly that Adders do not count toward the range calculation given that (per 6E1 313) they increase active cost.  It feels arbitrary.

 

It might be because some adders are range multipliers and you'd be getting even more range if you included the adder in the range calculation, but so what?  If you are doubling range anyway a bit more isn't going to affect game balance and it would make the rules more internally consistent.

 

I do sometimes wish that the column inches devoted to repeating the phrase 'common and dramatic sense' were instead devoted to explaining some of the design considerations.

 

I digress...
 

 

But we're not talking about using the RAW No Range. Or at least, I'm not. The No Initial Range does what the OP wants as described in his last post. He's not using the power in a spontaneous close quarters combat but in situations where he has control over the engagement conditions.

 

Perhaps a better way to do this would be with Extra Time. Calculate how long it would take to move from his starting location to maximum range and use that value with the rest being SFX.

[unclevlad]

He can move it to his max range, yes.  But doing so takes a very long time.  So I don't treat this as a range limit...which is weird when he's buying increased max range...but an extra time limitation, as you noted later.  

And out to his max range took, IIRC, quite a while...even when he sank in *substantial* points into the movement speed.  Gotta take off here so I don't want to look it up but it was more than 5 minutes, IIRC.