Teleportation variant power: Apportation

[unclevlad]

This is mostly a reality check, I hope.

 

In teleportation that has Usable As Attack, the source point is the attacker, and the destination is wherever.

 

The power I'm considering is apportation...something/someone remote is teleported *to me*.  The power is otherwise a mirror for the most part:  the range is whatever you buy it as;  you still need to perceive the person or object to be teleported with a targeting sense...I'm inclined to say that the "blind teleport into an area" doesn't apply, as this feels like it's inherently more precise;  mass limits apply;  and an unwilling person as the target would still require UAA.  

 

The target always appears adjacent to you;  there must be enough clear space for it to arrive, or the apport fails.  You can't stick someone into a wall with this.

 

Note that I'd rather define this as a separate power altogether, because Target and Range don't match Teleport.  That makes trying to do this through Teleport but with an advantage a pain.  

 

Thoughts?

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah I have bought this with a few variants.  I've always bought it with modified teleport, because it works fine that way.

 

You don't need indirect because its inherently so as a power, but you need ranged to make the usable on others work over there.  If its only to you, then another limitation.  Since its usable as an attack and ONLY on others, that's a lower advantage.

[Tom Cowan]

One fixed location: you? -1 lim?

[Duke Bushido]

What Chris said: 

 

Teleport already has a "range" of sorts, being how far you can hop at a time.  The "Ranged" Advantage in this case would be how far away a target can be before you can't use the power on him / it.

 

I agree that "safe blind teleport" isn't required, for two reasons:  1) there is no blind teleport being made.  You know precisely where you're sending the target, and as you say: if the target can't fit there, the apportation fails.  You have to have line of sight to target the target (I really tried to find a better way to say that; I really did) and right next to you, so-- no blind teleport.

 

2) I don't use that modifier, as it's backwards to me.  I prefer to assume that blind T-port is safe blind T-port, and allow a Limitation for constructs where this is not the case.

 

So, if it were me, I'd have T-port, UAA (I would use that even if it was targeting inanimate objects, as you aren't giving the target the power; you are forcing the power onto the target).  Ignore the blind teleport thing-- perhaps a custom limitation for "will not work unless there is a clean landing pad" or words to that effect, and, as Tom suggests, a single fixed location: "ri'chyeah."

 

 

 

[unclevlad]

Yeah, I get that what you guys are suggesting...kinda, sorta works...but you're forcing it into the structure of Teleport.  I don't want that unless I absolutely have to.  

 

--Range is Self.  By RAW, Ranged *cannot* be bought on a Self power.  Does UAA change that?  Ehhhhh...  When Ranged can be applied, in its full form, it grants standard range...10x base power points.  I don't want that;  I want it defined by the movement speci'd by the power definition.  

 

--IF!! the fixed arrival point is another limitation, this is a mess in its own right.  If we take Tom's -1, then apporting someone to me involuntarily (an escape foiling power) becomes cheaper than me teleporting someone into a Bad Situation...everything else would be the same but I'm trading a +1/2 Ranged (at most) for a -1 Fixed Arrival.

 

And these are largely mutually cancelling senses.  Within the limit of your movement capacity, you move yourself from a fixed location to a selected destination (teleport) or you select someone/something at a selected location to a fixed destination.  Structurally?  They're equivalent.  But doing it with advantages and limitations is MESSY because of the mechanics that invokes.

 

Teleport 20", x8 increased mass....30 points

Apport 20", x8 increased mass....if this requires the 1/2 advantage, it's now 45 active, before we kick in any limitations based on "must arrive 'here'."  Similarly, tho, that limitation messes up with any other Limitation because Limitations math is non-linear.  

 

So it's FAR more straightforward and consistent to define a new power and NOT try to hang advantages and limitations with their inconsistent costing, and which have to be distorted anyway.

 

EDIT:  I'd be a lot more inclined to work from Teleport but you can't...not within the system.  You've got to define a custom advantage and a custom limitation, that leave the fundamental power's flexibility intact.  

 

Now, if you want to say Apport should fundamentally be MORE expensive?  Say, 3 points for 2 meters?  Thinking about it, i could readily see that...because you can rescue your teammate from an Entangle.  Then, to define "UAA" just call that a flat +1 advantage.  Apport's fundamental use cases clearly include Usable On Others...the increased cost expresses this more cleanly, so we need only add the "as attack" as an advantage.

 

The net result is a FAR cleaner, clearer power definition.

 

 

[Duke Bushido]

4 hours ago, unclevlad said:

Yeah, I get that what you guys are suggesting...kinda, sorta works...but you're forcing it into the structure of Teleport. 

 

Oh; my apologies.  I am sorry I wasn't more clear, Vlad.

 

My intention in specifying the advantages, etc, that would make T-port do this wasnt to convince you to use T-port.  I had been suggesting that the T-port build, when completed, would give you a better grasp of just where to price your Apport power/ spell.

 

 

 

 

 

 

4 hours ago, unclevlad said:

 

 

 

I don't want that unless I absolutely have to.  

 

--Range is Self.  By RAW, Ranged *cannot* be bought on a Self power. 

 

 

I get that.  There are things that I forget about the Long Editions, as I don't generally use them.  I did not remember that this was a thing, for example.   I don't use them because nine times out of ten, I find myself completely disagreeing with them.  I know I am Odd Man Out in these cases, so I don't usually make any sort of uproar about my disagreement; after all, what would be the point?  it is easy enough to keep on not using them, after all, but, as I said, it does tend to kead to forgetting these odd specifications here and there exist. 

 

 

 

 

4 hours ago, unclevlad said:

Does UAA change that? 

 

Just as a hypothetical, it does _to me_.  As it is now an Attack, and "Attack Self" seems damnably silly at best.  I default it as "Attack adjacent," and the Advantage: Range does as you say: 10x AP on range.

 

 

 

4 hours ago, unclevlad said:

Ehhhhh...  When Ranged can be applied, in its full form, it grants standard range...10x base power points.  I don't want that; 

 

Hear me out a minute, because, as I hope I have made a bit more clear now, my purpose in suggesting all this goes not to beating you with the T-port build, but in nailing down reasonable comparitive costing for your suggested new ability:

 

I can't say I wouldnt take a long hard look at this next suggestion were it handed to me on a Character Sheet, but something I have done more than once when doing cost comparisons is this:

 

Advantage:Range, to get the price of that and to get an idea of the base range or range per "level of effect" (for example, "per die" for an Energy Blast), _and_ the limitation: Reduced Range, applied enough times to get the range where you believe it should be for the ability you have in mind.

 

If it troubles you too much, consider reducing the value of the Ranged advantage in increments equal to the reduction in range: for half the value, you get half the range; for 1/4 the value, you get 1/4 the range (this, if anyone is curious, is ultimately what lead me years ago to allowing modifiers of 1/8).

 

Or consider the value of "based on ECV" to give a range of Line of Sight.   Probably way more range tham you are looking for, but again, it is just for comparative purposes.

 

 

4 hours ago, unclevlad said:

I want it defined by the movement speci'd by the power definition.  

"Target must be within one 'leap'" seems like a valid range Limitation to me.  Somewhere in the 1/2 range, maybe 3/4.  Again- for the purpose of getting an idea of where to set the price of the new power.

 

 

 

 

4 hours ago, unclevlad said:

If we take Tom's -1, then apporting someone to me involuntarily (an escape foiling power) becomes cheaper than me teleporting someone into a Bad Situation...

 

I kind of think it should be; certainly it shoukd not be any more expensive.

 

If I can send someone away from me and into a bad situation, I am both attacking him (after a fashion) and defending myself simultaneously (I have moved him further away, making it more difficult- and maybr impossible- for him to target me.  As you note, I may even be dropping him into a volcano or straight into cannonfire.

 

Bringing him to my side might delay his escape, but it doesn't protect me from getring my butt kicked for my troubles: that pesky rogue climbing over the wall won't get away so easily [poof]-  oh crap; it's Conan!

 

That sort of thing.  It do3snt put them somehwere safe for either of you by default; it just puts them in melee range of you.  I see that as being considerably less convenient than "back to your cell! [Poof].  Filthy peasants...."

 

Sure, it isnt such a problem when used for scrolls or keys of the floorboards your opponent is standing on, but it does require a bit more discretion of use.

 

 

 

4 hours ago, unclevlad said:

 But doing it with advantages and limitations is MESSY because of the mechanics that invokes.

 

Dude, I am with you, here.

 

Remember not too terribly long ago when I made the comment that magic in HERO RAW just didnt feel the same as in other systems?  That certain constructs just robbed the fluid 'this is a magic spell' feel?  Or, more succinctly, the _feel_ of a thing was never less important than the end results of that thing?

 

Remember just how many people told me I was wrong?

 

I have a thick skin and am fairly certain that it was because I lack the vocabulary to have expressed it more clearly, but from your posts so far, you are, with this, at the exact same place: this will do the thing, but it is messy and doesnt give the feel I want."

 

Dude, I get it; believe me.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[unclevlad]

I'll get back to this later...I'm trying to regrow my fuse for the rest of the night.   HATE when the breaker trips at 4:30 in the morning...

[Christopher R Taylor]

I don't think you need a new power, but if you did, here's what the costs would look like built as a Hero power.

 

The base build is Teleport xm, with

Usable As An Attack (only vs others, granter pays END) +½, Ranged +½, Can only Teleport to one Fixed Location +1. 

 

That's +1 advantage and -1 limitation, so its a Push.  You are able to target something at a distance and force it to teleport to you for 1 base cost per 1m teleported

 

However, its worth considering something here.  Full range is base points x10m, which means that the maximum range is many times past the distance you can teleport something.  A 10m teleport would have 100m range.  Theoretically you could use that to jump something toward you in 10 hops but I don't think that is what you have in mind; at least it wouldn't be what I do.  I think you mean that the teleport always jumps the object its distance to you, not a part of the range toward you.  So, its teleportating a fraction of its potential total range.

 

And that means the Ranged advantage is instead the +¼ Limited Range variant, bringing the total advantage down to +¾ and that means the limitations bring the cost down by -¼.

 

So the teleport looks something like this:

 

RANGE  COST

  5m          4

 10m         8

 15m        13

 20m        17

 25m        22

 30m        26

 35m        30

 40m        35

 50m        43

 60m        52

100m       87

 

So if you want a quick and dirty estimate, its around 4 base points per 5m distance Apported.

 

 

[Sean Waters]

UAA specifically says that you can buy limited or standard range for the power so that you can use it at greater than reach range. 6E1 358

[Hugh Neilson]

Hmmm…

 

A Fixed Location (1 point) allows teleporting to that point, even if it can’t be clearly seen.  The character can still Teleport to other locations, except we will be limiting this one (-1).

 

UAA is UBO (one target, +1/4), UAA (+1). Most other reductions to UOO do not apply to UAA.  For example, the character can’t Teleport himself, by default.

 

It needs Range (limited, full or even megascale). However, given that apportation utterly useless without range, I suggest that it is ranged at no further cost.  If the target is adjacent to the user, the power can’t be used at all, so Range is flipped in this instance.

 

Getting more distance is easy with noncombat multiple or even Megascale, so we’ll leave that out for now.  It can be applied to whatever we price Apportation at.  As well, the character has to be able to perceive the target.

 

So, if we have 30 meters for 30 points, +1 for a fixed location = 31 x 2.25 (UAA), so 70 AP.  Only to one fixed location is -1, which gets us down to 35 RP for 30 meters.

 

Being that close, I’d say make it a variant Teleport 1 point per meter.

[tombrown803]

On 11/27/2021 at 6:26 PM, unclevlad said:

--Range is Self.  By RAW, Ranged *cannot* be bought on a Self power.  Does UAA change that?  Ehhhhh...  When Ranged can be applied, in its full form, it grants standard range...10x base power points.  I don't want that;  I want it defined by the movement speci'd by the power definition.

 

To directly answer this question: when a power is bought UAA it automatically becomes 0 range. That means to use it you must physically touch the target. Buying the Ranged advantage with it allows you to target someone/thing that you aren't adjacent to. So if your enemy is 10m away from you: without Ranged you can't attack them, with it you can

Hope that helps

 

[unclevlad]

2 hours ago, tombrown803 said:

 

To directly answer this question: when a power is bought UAA it automatically becomes 0 range. That means to use it you must physically touch the target. Buying the Ranged advantage with it allows you to target someone/thing that you aren't adjacent to. So if your enemy is 10m away from you: without Ranged you can't attack them, with it you can

Hope that helps

 

I don't have to buy it as UAA.  My teammate's stuck in an Entangle...?  He's willing.  I see the maguffin across the room;  the other side is closer to it than I am.  *poof*  Not any more.

 

19 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

The base build is Teleport xm, with

Usable As An Attack (only vs others, granter pays END) +½, Ranged +½, Can only Teleport to one Fixed Location +1. 

 

That's +1 advantage and -1 limitation, so its a Push.  You are able to target something at a distance and force it to teleport to you for 1 base cost per 1m teleported

 

However, its worth considering something here.  Full range is base points x10m, which means that the maximum range is many times past the distance you can teleport something.  A 10m teleport would have 100m range.  Theoretically you could use that to jump something toward you in 10 hops but I don't think that is what you have in mind; at least it wouldn't be what I do.  I think you mean that the teleport always jumps the object its distance to you, not a part of the range toward you.  So, its teleportating a fraction of its potential total range.

 

And that means the Ranged advantage is instead the +¼ Limited Range variant, bringing the total advantage down to +¾ and that means the limitations bring the cost down by -¼.

 

So the teleport looks something like this:

 

RANGE  COST

  5m          4

 10m         8

 15m        13

 20m        17

 25m        22

 30m        26

 35m        30

 40m        35

 50m        43

 60m        52

100m       87

 

So if you want a quick and dirty estimate, its around 4 base points per 5m distance Apported.

 

 

 

It doesn't require UAA.  UAA is a separate issue, and something I'd apply normally.  Apportation as a concept can readily be limited only to the willing...like, I sneak inside because I'm stealthy, then apport my buddy the tank.

 

And the range is going to be No Range.  "You can cause a willing person or object to move to a location adjacent to you.  There must be sufficient vacant space for the target to arrive."  That's still No Range, within the formal language of the system.  

 

And it's not worth a fixed-location limitation IMO.  This power is "cause movement from point B to me at point A" instead of "cause movement from me at point A to point B."  So it's exactly the same level of flexibility...1 point is anchored, the other is free.  

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

I don't have to buy it as UAA

 

You have to buy it a Usable as an Attack if you want to use it on anything, even if they do not or cannot give permission.

 

And the range, as explained above, is to make it so you can us the UAA on others at a distance.

 

Its bought as a fixed location because you can only teleport to yourself.  Not to the top of that pillar, not into a fire, not to a comfy chair across the room.

[unclevlad]

And the UAA form is a different specific power from the non-UAA.  Apport's definition does not require it.  I AM NOT building a specific power starting from Teleport.  I'm defining a new Power.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

 I AM NOT building a specific power starting from Teleport.  I'm defining a new Power.

 

Yes, but the exercise was to show you how the build would look in Hero so you can estimate a cost for the build when you make the new power.  Hence the words "here's what the costs would look like built as a Hero power."  With that as a base you can see how it would cost out built as its own power.

[Hugh Neilson]

11 hours ago, unclevlad said:

I don't have to buy it as UAA.  My teammate's stuck in an Entangle...?  He's willing.  I see the maguffin across the room;  the other side is closer to it than I am.  *poof*  Not any more.

 

 

It doesn't require UAA.  UAA is a separate issue, and something I'd apply normally.  Apportation as a concept can readily be limited only to the willing...like, I sneak inside because I'm stealthy, then apport my buddy the tank.

 

And the range is going to be No Range.  "You can cause a willing person or object to move to a location adjacent to you.  There must be sufficient vacant space for the target to arrive."  That's still No Range, within the formal language of the system.  

 

And it's not worth a fixed-location limitation IMO.  This power is "cause movement from point B to me at point A" instead of "cause movement from me at point A to point B."  So it's exactly the same level of flexibility...1 point is anchored, the other is free.  

 

Like Christopher R Taylor, I find building the power with another power a good guideline for costing.  UAA would be needed to teleport not only an unwilling target, but also an unaware target (for example, an object or a Stunned teammate). 

 

Having snuck inside because you are stealthy, can you see your buddy the Brick? Line of Sight is generally required to use abilities that affect others, whether friend or foe.  Sensing the Apportee will also be an issue.

 

No Range means my target must be within HTH range. As noted in my "costing build" above, I think it's a wash, as the power is useless if the target is that close.  Technically, that's not the "build it from Teleport" model. but it is the outgrowth of "must be to the fixed location of right beside me". 

 

As for the fixed location, that's for pricing, in my view.  It would be more useful to be able to teleport the target anywhere I want, so limiting it to "right beside me" reduces the appropriate cost for the Apportation power.

 

Having gone through that pricing exercise, I'd call Apportation 1 point per 1 meter, as set out above. @Christopher R Taylor- thoughts?  Would you price it differently, having gone through a similar "build it through Teleport" exercise?

 

Now we can tweak it.   If only willing targets can be Apported (meaning they must be capable of forming that willingness, I would call that a limitation, probably -1 as it will curtail the power's utility considerably.  If it can target anything not unwilling (so objects and KOd targets are OK), that's probably -1/2.

[Sean Waters]

23 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

...

UAA is UBO (one target, +1/4), UAA (+1). Most other reductions to UOO do not apply to UAA.  For example, the character can’t Teleport himself, by default.

...

 

 

Nit pick: you don't need UBO if you have UAA.  UBO is used to give a willing target a power temporarily, UAA is used to force the effects of a power on a target whether they are willing or not.  UAA allows you to force the power's effects on a single Recipient for +1 1/4.  It is the same cost as a single target UBO +UAA at +1 but that is not how it is built because otherwise you could build it to target 2x the Recipients for +1/4.

 

Also a character can teleport themselves because there's nothing I can see in the rules that says that the Grantor and Recipient have to be different.  The first paragraph talks about giving or forcing a power on another character, but the actual body of the text (and there is a lot of it) does not seem to require this.  In fact, correction, the text specifically allows the character to grant he power to others of himself for +0 (so why wouldn't you) 6E1 345.

 

Also, peskily for a TP power the recipient must be in LOS at all times so no TPing someone else behind a wall (or from behind a wall) unless you have a X-Ray vision or some such.  Arguably a TP location (fixed or otherwise) should work but it does not technically grant LOS to the target, it just means you don't need LOS, so does not work with the rule as written.

 

Having said that, one of the examples on page 360 is 'Entombment' which allows you to bury someone underground using fill-in Tunnelling where you definitely would not have LOS so who knows, eh?

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

Having gone through that pricing exercise, I'd call Apportation 1 point per 1 meter, as set out above. @Christopher R Taylor- thoughts?  Would you price it differently, having gone through a similar "build it through Teleport" exercise?

 

Its close enough, I ended up around 4 points per 5m teleport, but 1 per 1 works fine.

 

Quote

Also a character can teleport themselves because there's nothing I can see in the rules that says that the Grantor and Recipient have to be different

 

In 6th, its less of an advantage to be only able to use the Usable as an Attack power on others (and to have to pay the END cost rather than the target) which is where the cost for the build I posted came from.  It ends up a +½ advantage.

[Sean Waters]

To build apportation using teleportation as a guide you'd probably need to (in essence) buy UAA TP with Only to self.  

 

That wouldn't mean obviously you could not use it on yourself (or you could but it would just teleport you to where you are).  I am not sure what the value of that limitation would be, but if you did say -1 1/4 then it would work out basically the same as TP, so that's something to think about.

It might even be more than that.  If you could ONLY teleport to a fixed location what would that be worth?  -2 at least...

 

 

...or not.  There's an example on page 302 where it is set at -1 (which is nowhere near enough for the limitation).  That would make it 15 points for 20m of TP.  Would you like MegaScale with that?

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

 If you could ONLY teleport to a fixed location what would that be worth?  -2 at least.

 

Rules book says -1. That's probably not bigger because you're rarely buying that limitation without a specific beneficial use in mind (teleport to a jail cell, teleport to my hand, etc).  That negates a lot of the drawback.  If you could only teleport someone to the controls of your base, that would probably be worth a greater limitation because it is very limited in its utility and is difficult to use offensively or to control someone.

[Hugh Neilson]

8 hours ago, Sean Waters said:

 

Nit pick: you don't need UBO if you have UAA.  UBO is used to give a willing target a power temporarily, UAA is used to force the effects of a power on a target whether they are willing or not.  UAA allows you to force the power's effects on a single Recipient for +1 1/4.  It is the same cost as a single target UBO +UAA at +1 but that is not how it is built because otherwise you could build it to target 2x the Recipients for +1/4.

 

6e indicates +1/4 as the base advantage, and +1 more advantage for UAA.

 

8 hours ago, Sean Waters said:

Also a character can teleport themselves because there's nothing I can see in the rules that says that the Grantor and Recipient have to be different.  The first paragraph talks about giving or forcing a power on another character, but the actual body of the text (and there is a lot of it) does not seem to require this.  In fact, correction, the text specifically allows the character to grant he power to others of himself for +0 (so why wouldn't you) 6E1 345.

 

Because p 359 tells us the power is only usable as an attack, and cannot be used by the character for its normal purpose.  Generally, attacking oneself is noted as "should not be allowed".

8 hours ago, Sean Waters said:

Also, peskily for a TP power the recipient must be in LOS at all times so no TPing someone else behind a wall (or from behind a wall) unless you have a X-Ray vision or some such.  Arguably a TP location (fixed or otherwise) should work but it does not technically grant LOS to the target, it just means you don't need LOS, so does not work with the rule as written.

 

Having said that, one of the examples on page 360 is 'Entombment' which allows you to bury someone underground using fill-in Tunnelling where you definitely would not have LOS so who knows, eh?

 

It stops working when you lose LoS.  **pop** he goes to the fixed location and I lose LoS on him, so he is no longer affected.

 

Entombment would open the hole, Tunnel the target in, close it up again - no more LoS.  You can Entomb him, but you can't bring him back up.

[Christopher R Taylor]

As teleport is by its nature inherently indirect, I would allow someone to use it to port someone from inside a container or behind a wall, if they could see the target (like behind a sheet of glass).

[Sean Waters]

11 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

6e indicates +1/4 as the base advantage, and +1 more advantage for UAA.

 

 

 

 

I'm not sure it does.  6E1 358

 

USABLE AS ATTACK
modifiers:can grant power to one recipient, recipient
need not be willing, grantor controls power,
grantor pays END for power, recipient
must be within reach to receive power,
recipient must remain within LOS of grantor
Value: +1¼

 

If you also needed to also buy some UOO it would be at least +1 1/2.  I appreciate that the cost is the same as base UOO plus 1, but then the cost of AoE (Radius) is the same as cumulative plus armour piercing and autofire.  I'm not sure that establishes a principle.  Also, see below, but if UAA was a part of UOO then you definitely could grant the power to yourself as a +0 because that is one of the modifiers you can 'buy' for UOO.

 

11 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

Because p 359 tells us the power is only usable as an attack, and cannot be used by the character for its normal purpose.  Generally, attacking oneself is noted as "should not be allowed".

19 hours ago, Sean Waters said:

 

You are right, but, like much in the overlong and rambling 6th edition that makes no sense.  If I have a Blast power, can I not use it on myself?  I might not want to, but it is an attack and it would work just fine.  Not being able to use the 'base power' is an unnecessary and inconsistent injunction doubtless inserted to counter some perceived but unlikely abuse. Sure you'd need to use the advantages and such and pay full END for the real cost, but where its the possible harm in being able to use a UAA power on yourself?

 

It just means you have to stick it in a MP with a power without the advantage which is a completely unnecessary build complication..  I'm pretty sure this sort of thing is why I don't play Hero much any more.

11 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

It stops working when you lose LoS.  **pop** he goes to the fixed location and I lose LoS on him, so he is no longer affected.

 

Entombment would open the hole, Tunnel the target in, close it up again - no more LoS.  You can Entomb him, but you can't bring him back up.

 

Fine if you are standing on the edge of the hole but the example power is ranged, so as soon as the target is 2m deep you lose LOS and the power stops, shallower if they are crouching.  Again, what is the point of this?  I'm sure I could think of some convoluted situation where it would be a problem, but that is what GMs are for. Anyway it stops, or at least confuses, some perfectly legitimate builds.  What if I wanted to UAA flight someone and include Uncontrolled so I can just switch off their gravity and they float away?  Does Uncontrolled (does not need LOS) trump UAA (does need LOS)?  They are both specific rules.  It is just that one of them is completely unnecessary because Constant powers (Flight, for example) DO need LOS to keep working anyway.

 

I appreciate you could make a ruling on that, and I can guess what it would be, but you shouldn't have to, and wouldn't have to if the LOS thing was not there in UAA.  The point is that Hero is increasingly impenetrable and that makes it less fun.  I could almost put up with that if all these arbitrary rules and comments made the game clearer and quicker to play, but that is not what is happening.
 

[Hugh Neilson]

2 hours ago, Sean Waters said:

 

I'm not sure it does.  6E1 358

 

I'm sure.  This is one of

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6E1 357 several "standard" or common forms of UOO

 

constructed using the table on page 354 to determine the advantage.  It is +1/4 basic and +1 for Grantor can force power on an unwilling recipient ("Usable as Attack").

2 hours ago, Sean Waters said:

You are right, but, like much in the overlong and rambling 6th edition that makes no sense.  If I have a Blast power, can I not use it on myself?  I might not want to, but it is an attack and it would work just fine.  Not being able to use the 'base power' is an unnecessary and inconsistent injunction doubtless inserted to counter some perceived but unlikely abuse. Sure you'd need to use the advantages and such and pay full END for the real cost, but where its the possible harm in being able to use a UAA power on yourself?

 

It just means you have to stick it in a MP with a power without the advantage which is a completely unnecessary build complication..  I'm pretty sure this sort of thing is why I don't play Hero much any more.

 

Channelling my inner @Duke Bushido, because a Power with and Advantage is a unique power which differs from a power without an advantage. The rules even note the character might be able to "attack" himself.  That +1 UAA really combines a lot of other modifiers, as it automatically means "Grantor control" (normally +1/2), Grantor pays END (normally -1/4), Grantor can only use the power on others (normally -1/2) and recipient must remain in LOS (normally -1/4).  We could, from this, extrapolate that Grantor can Force Power is +1 1/2, with the above modifiers then applied.  If we remove the "can only use the power on others", and keep all of the other modifiers, we now have a +1 3/4 advantage (base + 1 1/2).

 

2 hours ago, Sean Waters said:

Fine if you are standing on the edge of the hole but the example power is ranged, so as soon as the target is 2m deep you lose LOS and the power stops, shallower if they are crouching.  Again, what is the point of this?  I'm sure I could think of some convoluted situation where it would be a problem, but that is what GMs are for. Anyway it stops, or at least confuses, some perfectly legitimate builds.  What if I wanted to UAA flight someone and include Uncontrolled so I can just switch off their gravity and they float away?  Does Uncontrolled (does not need LOS) trump UAA (does need LOS)?  They are both specific rules.  It is just that one of them is completely unnecessary because Constant powers (Flight, for example) DO need LOS to keep working anyway.

 

I appreciate you could make a ruling on that, and I can guess what it would be, but you shouldn't have to, and wouldn't have to if the LOS thing was not there in UAA.  The point is that Hero is increasingly impenetrable and that makes it less fun.  I could almost put up with that if all these arbitrary rules and comments made the game clearer and quicker to play, but that is not what is happening.

 

Applying the chart would solve that as well.  Add +1/4 to the advantage to move from "LOS" to "can go anywhere".  However, as I interpret the rule, I need LOS to use the attack.  Having used it, the target moves as I directed. If, during the movement, I lose LOS, I can't make them move again, but they complete the movement I "attacked" with when I could see them.

 

Maybe we need another 6 - 8 pages to cover all these cases as well?  This has been Hero's challenge - seek to describe every possible situation, and get rules bloat, or leave something out and "I should not have to figure  that out myself".  In other games, we just say "the rules don't allow that", but in Hero, we want to be able to build whatever we can imagine.

 

[Duke Bushido]

On 11/27/2021 at 11:32 PM, unclevlad said:

I'll get back to this later...I'm trying to regrow my fuse for the rest of the night.   HATE when the breaker trips at 4:30 in the morning...

 

 

How sis the fuse situation work out, Sir?

 

And have you had the time to finalize your new power and its mechanics?   I have no authority to speak on behalf of anyone else, but I bet I am not the only one who is this curious to see what you came up with. 

 

 

 

All of that was extremely well-said, Hugh, as always. 

 

however, and understand that it is just an opinion:

 

 

On 11/30/2021 at 9:24 AM, Hugh Neilson said:

Maybe we need another 6 - 8 pages to cover all these cases as well?  This has been Hero's challenge - seek to describe every possible situation, and get rules bloat, or leave something out and "I should not have to figure  that out myself".  In other games, we just say "the rules don't allow that", but in Hero, we want to be able to build whatever we can imagine.

 

 

 

I would,much prefer to _not_ trt to describe every edge case and possibility, _especially_ when it means rules bloat.

 

I find that being swamped in hyper-specificity works more against building what you want than does a little freedom in interpretation, or the ability of your to decide just how certain modifiers interact with certain powers or with each other.

 

Again, its just one guy's opinion, though it is the biggest reason I never left 2e.  I _might_ have tried 3e if I had found it before I found 4e, but_ while there were a few things I cribbed from 4e, on the whole, that was too much, and it has only grown in page count, mandate, and slog.