New martial manuver for escrima

[iena]

Hi to all, 

I would like to build (if possible) a manuver to simulate what in escrima we call gunting (scissors, basically)it is a special block (so it should have the feature "abort") combined whit a movement (like a scissors) of the "other hand" aimed to hit the arm of the opponent and to damage it. Is there in your opinion a legal way to introduce it in the hero system 6th. To be noted that an exemple of this manuver can be found in third season of Cobra kai... It is the technique that chozen teaches to Daniel Larusso to defeat Krees. 

[Tjack]

   The great thing about Special Effects in Champions is that once we can break down exactly what you want to happen and we figure out how to do that in the rules, you can define a maneuver as looking like whatever you want.

     It seems from your description that you want something that acts as both a defense against incoming damage and inflicts damage of its own at the same time.   In game terms this sounds like a Damage Shield. With all appropriate limitations to bring it back down to behaving like the described action and make it possible to buy on a reasonable number of points.  
   I am one of the worst number crunchers on this site so I’m sure some of the others will have either better ideas on how to do this or better ways to make this idea viable.  I wish you the best of luck in finding the answer.

[unclevlad]

Technically, no.  Hero System Martial Arts has a section on this.  Maneuvers have a basis, such as strike, block, or throw.  The problem is that what you're describing sounds like a block and a strike...but block and strike are listed as Exclusive maneuvers.  You can't incorporate both into a single maneuver.  

 

Also, you cannot abort to a maneuver that does damage, so you've got 2 strikes against it.  

 

Is this really a single maneuver, or is it a block and counterstrike?  An aspect of Block is that the blocker gets to act first in the next phase, if it's shared with the attacker.  This might really be your best bet.  The problem trying to simulate martial arts is combat phases.  What works smoothly in real life, doesn't do so well because of the phases.

 

 

[iena]

Many thanks for your replies. Follow this link to see what i mean with gunting: 

 

[unclevlad]

Yeah, but the video also flat-out says, this is a special, targeted maneuver not intended to do real damage with the strike, but via the accumulation.  This isn't something Hero recognizes.

 

Also, this works because basic, normal defenses are minimal IRL, and the body does suffer wear and tear and fatigue.  In Hero, defenses are typically far higher, and even the defense/attack ratio is much more canted to the defense.

 

Best I can think of would be a Strike with a DCV bonus, with Disable and also -2 for the "uses no STR" restrictive element...perhaps the -1 for half STR, but you're not getting your full STR into the blow from what's being shown there.  It can't take the Abort within the rules;  you'd have to hold action, and/or even buy Lightning Reflexes with this maneuver to make it more reactive.

[Ninja-Bear]

@iena, must this technique be solely built as a Martial Maneuver? Cause you could have a  HtH Attack with a Trigger. Block being the trigger. Or instead of HA it could be a Drain. (Btw what Edition are you using)

[Duke Bushido]

I dont want to under think this, but isnt this, per the description in the fist post, more or less a counterstrike of sorts?

 

 

[iena]

Hi Everybody, 

I'm happy to see the topic I have proposed is stimulating an interesting conversation. To be honest I don't have problem in building the gunting with an approach different than the classic maneuver. A maneuver would have been good because of his semplicity but even a "power like" approach would be ok for me. What is important to me is to keep everything within the limits of 6th edition rules. 

[Ninja-Bear]

I’m thinking perhaps the easiest would be a 4d6 Blast No Range, Damage Shield 2 Hand limitation (to represent that you need both hands free) with +5 DCV (to represent the Block part). -0 limitation Maneuver because the Damage shield won’t work if you’re doing another maneuver. 

[Ninja-Bear]

Oh and I forgot that usually with this build a to hit roll is added as a limitation (or for simplicity it could just be an activation for the damage shield part.

 

The way I see it working is that the player turns on the Damage Shield and that acts as Gunting so there is no need to Abort to Block between Phases. The custom limitation Maneuver is well if someone Grabs you, then the Damage Shield goes down. I would allow the DCV to be in effect but depending on strike say Low Kick, the Damage Shield doesn’t go off. (Perhaps the limitation might be worth -1/4).

[Ninja-Bear]

2 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

I dont want to under think this, but isnt this, per the description in the fist post, more or less a counterstrike of sorts?

 

 

Could be. But Counter Strike as a Martial Maneuver takes place in the next Phase. So the question is does the OP want the damage happen as the Block goes off or later? 
 

 

@iena, not to seem to be to nitpicking but when you say with in 6th Ed rules. What exactly do you mean? As in Core Rules or using HSMA which provides more options (such as buying martial maneuvers with advantages) or I think I saw in one of the Advance Guide Books allowing Multiattack to use Block and a strike maneuver at once.

[Duke Bushido]

3 minutes ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Could be. But Counter Strike as a Martial Maneuver takes place in the next Phase. So the question is does the OP want the damage happen as the Block goes off or later? 

 

 

There was a thread a while back discussing a write up of counterstrike as a damage shield-- it might have even been a discussion of something Steve wrote; I don't remember anymore (nothing personal: I don't use the MA rules, so I wasn't particularly interested in the topic, but I follow along now and again for interesting ideas).  What you posted-- the damage shield-- was exactly the thing being discussed, and what I was trying to remember.  I think the topic at the time was referring to riposte; but again-- same thing, different SFX.

 

All in all, well done. 

 

 

[iena]

@Ninja-Bearwith my party we use the core rules handbook (1 and 2) plus Hero System martial arts. No advanced player guides because my friends don't want to further increase the complexity 

[Ninja-Bear]

2 hours ago, iena said:

@Ninja-Bearwith my party we use the core rules handbook (1 and 2) plus Hero System martial arts. No advanced player guides because my friends don't want to further increase the complexity 

I get you there! 😀 Even some of the options in HSMA can get complex. That’s why I’m approaching this from several different angles.  Have you picked a build yet?

[Ninja-Bear]

@Duke Bushido, after you responded to you, I thought more about Counterstrike the Maneuver. Since it’s pointed out that even the Gunting doesn’t always hit/hurt, I think the sfx would work like this. The first phase you use (and can abort is a Block) then the next available phase Counterstrike and Counterstrike can follow itself. So sfx, Block is you Gunting but negligible damage and Counterstrike is Gunting with Damage. Perhaps you buy extra DCV for Counterstrike to equal your Block’s DCV.

[Duke Bushido]

That seems quite accurate, actually.   I'd rep you, but apparently I am put. 

 

I will come back by later. 

 

 

[LoneWolf]

One way to do this would be to build it with the must follow element.  So instead of a combined maneuver it is two separate maneuvers.  Since if you block someone, you automatically go before that person if you have the same phase the target of the move would have a harder time avoiding the follow up strike.

 

Another way to build the maneuver would be to give it a DCV bonus with the special effect of blocking. Don’t get hung up with the description of the element.  Just because your basic block has an abort element does not mean that every similar maneuver has to.  

 

Holding an action is a perfectly legitimate tactics.   I have said it many times that a higher DEX does not mean you go first it means you choose when you go. 

[Ninja-Bear]

1 hour ago, LoneWolf said:

Holding an action is a perfectly legitimate tactics.   I have said it many times that a higher DEX does not mean you go first it means you choose when you go. 

I’ve said this many times and other on the boards don’t think as highly of going first. Each their own. However though if you hold your action there is that chance that you won’t go first. You must make a DEX Roll to see who goes first.  At least by RAW.

[LoneWolf]

You don’t need to make a DEX roll for defensive actions that you can abort to.  You can also perform zero phase actions before holding a phase.  Adjusting skill levels are a zero phase action.  

 

When you make the DEX roll you have already committed to making taking a specific action and cannot change it. You get any CV bonus or penalty for that action even if you lose the DEX roll.   Since adjusting skill levels are a zero phase action you can also do that before you make the roll, if you have not already done so.  So, if I have something that gives me a DCV bonus like defensive strike I can use that when I hold phase and get the CV adjustments including reallocating my skill levels even if I lose the DEX roll.  

 

The visual of how a particular maneuver looks do not matter.  If I have a maneuver that gives me a bonus to DCV, or I put skill levels to DCV it does not have to be me dodging the attack, it could be me blocking the attack instead. So, if I want a counter strike type maneuver, I could easily build that as a simple bonus to DCV. 
 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Another maneuver I've been thinking about is a deflection maneuver.  Instead of all-or-nothing block, it is a block that reduces damage taken (something that is done a lot more in real combat than the absolute negation of damage).  Damage negation?  Damage Reduction?

[SCUBA Hero]

I recommend using a Triggered hand-to-hand attack, with the Trigger being a successful Block.  Not a Martial Arts Maneuver, but it seems to me that the key element is waiting for the opponent to attack first, then blocking the attack and immediately counter-attacking.

[Ninja-Bear]

@LoneWolf, I stand (or rather am sitting) corrected. 
 

 

 

On 1/11/2022 at 4:35 PM, unclevlad said:

Best I can think of would be a Strike with a DCV bonus, with Disable and also -2 for the "uses no STR" restrictive element...perhaps the -1 for half STR, but you're not getting your full STR into the blow from what's being shown there.  It can't take the Abort within the rules;  you'd have to hold action, and/or even buy Lightning Reflexes with this maneuver to make it more reactive.

I also like this idea of Disable element. Though Disable Element seems to me more complicated in 6th than in 5th.

 

Also in some respects the Gunting could be considered a Nerve Strike and perhaps use the Disabling Nerve Strike option. However that adds more rules which could slow down play.

[dsatow]

By normal martial arts conventions in HERO, it seems to me to be a martial/defensive block and counter strike.  I dislike the damage shield method mainly because I believe (but I am not 100% sure so if someone can rule lawyer me it would be much appreciated) that a block does not count as "hit" for damage shield purposes.  I think the triggered HA on successful block would be better.

[Ninja-Bear]

16 hours ago, dsatow said:

By normal martial arts conventions in HERO, it seems to me to be a martial/defensive block and counter strike.  I dislike the damage shield method mainly because I believe (but I am not 100% sure so if someone can rule lawyer me it would be much appreciated) that a block does not count as "hit" for damage shield purposes.  I think the triggered HA on successful block would be better.

I believe the wording of Damage Shield is touch. So 99% of Blocks you are touching. That’s how I see it. (Naturally I could be wrong-but don’t tell the wife 😁).

[Grailknight]

On 1/20/2022 at 4:47 PM, Ninja-Bear said:

I believe the wording of Damage Shield is touch. So 99% of Blocks you are touching. That’s how I see it. (Naturally I could be wrong-but don’t tell the wife 😁).

 

While it has a pretty commonly accepted visual image of  a physical deflection, Block , is just the name on a maneuver that can many SFX. It could just as easily be a sidestep that puts the blocker in an advantageous position as an actual physical parry.

 

Real game situation: How would you rule if two combatants, both with offensive Damage Shields, took turns blocking each other?