"What are the elves like?"

[Chris Goodwin]

This is a spin-off of a thread on the Champions board where elves came up.  My own contribution was something to the effect of, I'm an un-fan of fantasy, especially games, where elves and the other Tolkienian, D&D-esque, races exist.  And an observation that when a new fantasy game or setting comes out, there are those whose first question is, what are their elves like?  

  

2 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

See, this is the key approach.  This is how to go about it: what kind of elves?  Tunnels and Trolls had little green elves that had minor abilties.  Skyim has like 6 types of elves (including orcs) whose special abilities are no more outstanding than any other races.  Hell, AD&D had a couple kinds of elves who were slightly more agile and could see in the dark, but had some poorer stats and couldn't level up as high in some areas (plus an xp penalty?  If I recall).  You can make them interesting, compelling, and curious without having to make them super powerful mary sues.

 

But why does fantasy have to have elves?  Or multiple races?  (I have to admit:  I use "elves" as a shorthand for "elves, dwarves, some sort of hobbit analog, probably orcs as well, possibly some number of others.")

 

I can think of half a dozen fantasy series off the top of my head that don't have them.  (Zelazny's Amber, Poul Anderson's Three Hearts and Three Lions, Lawrence Watt-Evans' Ethshar series, de Camp and Pratt's Compleat Enchanter (Harold Shea), Robert E. Howard's Conan, George R.R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire, The Matter of Britain (King Arthur, et al).)  

What exactly can be done with elves and other races that hasn't already been done to death?  My problem with them is that they're everywhere, for the most part because people assume they have to be there.  And there's nothing interesting or compelling about them; the most curious thing I can think of is, in most worlds where they exist, there's no particular reason for them to be there other than, because the author thought it wasn't fantasy without them.  

 

Really, what is it about elves and other races that you're going to explore, that hasn't already been explored in the approximately nineteen thousand other settings that have them?  (Note: that is hopefully obvious hyperbole.  I haven't actually counted.) 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

 

Really, what is it about elves and other races that you're going to explore, that hasn't already been explored in the approximately nineteen thousand other settings that have them?

 

 

I mean... all those products have humans, too right?  Are we over using humanity in games?  Even Skyrealms of Jorune had people it, and its the most un-Medieval fantasy setting I've ever seen. All those books you mentioned: humans.  What can we do with humans that hasn't already been done to death? 

 

its not about doing them to death, its about finding a connection for players to enjoy.  I mean, just because something is in a game doesn't somehow compel a GM or players to use it in any case.  There's nothing about the existence of alternate races that's any way more dull, offensive, corrupting, repetitive, or dull than... not having them.

 

But people keep coming back to Tolkien, Tolkien, Tolkien.  My main influences are much earlier than that, stuff like Faerie Queen and King Arthur and Roland and Norse and Greek mythology, and books like Fafhrd and Gray Mouser or Elric of Melibone (*cough* an interesting take on elves).  Elves were not invented by JRR Tolkien.  They weren't even defined by Tolkien.  He has his version, others have theirs.

[Duke Bushido]

In response to the nice dodge to maintain the claim that I did not answer the question of why elves are hated as I had not answered it in a way that was not asked:

 

How many fantasy RPGs contain elves that are not Tolkien-type elves?

 

 

Obviously, I haven't played everything, but I have played a lot of things with elves and elf-alikes.  If it was fantasy, they were Tolkien-esque elves every time.  Frankly, I believe you would have to find a game specifically about Santa Clause to find an elf that wasn't Tolkien-esque.  Of course, that's not exactly the sort of fantasy up for discussion, is it?

[Mr. R]

I think also some responsibility goes to AD&D.  It had elves and dwarves and hobb... err halflings.  And since then EVERY fantasy roleplaying setting seemed to need them included.  Role-Master--Check.  Palladium--check.  it wasn't until Talislanta (No Eleves for over 35 Years) that people started to gravitate to a possibility of one people with multiple cultures and beliefs, rather than if the live in mountains, they must be dwarves (Tell that to the Swiss)!

[Chris Goodwin]

5 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

How many fantasy RPGs contain elves that are not Tolkien-type elves?

 

Duke, if I hadn't paused to write you an email, I would have said this right here!  

 

2 minutes ago, Mr. R said:

I think also some responsibility goes to AD&D.  It had elves and dwarves and hobb... err halflings.  And since then EVERY fantasy roleplaying setting seemed to need them included.  Role-Master--Check.  Palladium--check.  it wasn't until Talislanta (No Eleves for over 35 Years) that people started to gravitate to a possibility of one people with multiple cultures and beliefs, rather than if the live in mountains, they must be dwarves (Tell that to the Swiss)!

 

As I said on the other thread, licking D&D's boots.  

[SCUBA Hero]

1 hour ago, Chris Goodwin said:

But why does fantasy have to have elves?  Or multiple races?  (I have to admit:  I use "elves" as a shorthand for "elves, dwarves, some sort of hobbit analog, probably orcs as well, possibly some number of others.")

 

*Have to* have?  No.  Why are they often used?  Familiar tropes.  Orcs - primitive, brutish, violent.  Dwarves - underground, mining, obsessed with material things.  Just like human tropes - Vikings, Romans, Horse Nomads.  You have a good idea of where they fit in to the world with little explanation needed.

[Chris Goodwin]

18 minutes ago, SCUBA Hero said:

 

*Have to* have?  No.  Why are they often used?  Familiar tropes.  Orcs - primitive, brutish, violent.  Dwarves - underground, mining, obsessed with material things.  Just like human tropes - Vikings, Romans, Horse Nomads.  You have a good idea of where they fit in to the world with little explanation needed.

 

This makes me even less comfortable playing them, as "primitive, brutish, violent" and "obsessed with material things" are all tropes that have been used to describe various ethnic groups IRL.  

[Duke Bushido]

I tend to agree with Chris on this, SCUBA  (no offense), and I have to say that even though I have noticed D&D is getting a bit goofier and goofier lately, I have a grudging respect for the fact that they are moving (slowly, but moving nonetheless) from ethnically evil or genetically evil or--   Dude, I have no pleasant way to say this: they are moving away from the "his kind are always evil" racism thing; I just wish they were doing a better job.  They have added things like "this kind tends to be hot and slutty"-- which may just be the fanboys; I don't know.  But regardless, that, too, is kinda racist, and I would like to see a little pushback against the general trend of "this type is always like x" or "always like Y." at least as it applies specifically to _race_ and behavior or _race_ and values.   Make it about culture, and I can live with it, because the first thing that says is that an orc not raised in the culture of his homelands will probably just be a normal guy with a ferocious underbite.  It suggests that a delightful whimsical whatever-it-is-that-DandD-has-these-days-that-is-delightful-and-whimsical raised in a traditional orc community (and somehow not eaten) will end up with the values and behaviors of that particular culture.

 

No; I'm not "woke;" I'm not even particularly liberal.  However, I have lived, at this point, over half my life in neighborhoods and communities where white is the minority; about half the jobs I have ever had-- white was not just a minority, but a _clear_ minority.  I have had allegedly well-intentioned people ask me if this is because my first wife was black-- if I just "preferred" the company of black people.  The fact is my first wife was _Irish_.  Yes; she was very obviously not white, but she was _Irish_.  With regards to the rest of the claptrap, I prefer the company of _good neighbors_, and I like to work with _good people_.  i give a crap about their race, because I know first hand that their race is _not_ who they are; the cultures and subcultures that each individual grabs onto-- _that_ is much more accurately who they are, and every time the subject comes up in a gaming conversation about "who the bad guys are" or who is the "evil race," I either excuse myself or get really nasty.  I prefer to excuse myself.

 

When did this start?  Honestly?  When I was a kid.  I know: it's weird, but Star Trek was a new thing when I was a kid, and I remember all the episodes with Klingons are bad; Klingons are evil, and when we finally saw Klingons, I straight up couldn't figure out what was evil about them.  They had a more military air about them, and for a long time, I thought _that_ was the mark of evil.     But they _looked_ (back then, but I suppose I could get in trouble, because I have been given to understand that "we do not speak of it."    :rofl:   )

 

At any rate: yes; I get you're point: most people know that this means that, the other thing means that other thing, and have a vague idea of how they interact, what their societies are like, etc, which makes a significant reduction in the amount of work someone would have to do when presenting his setting.   But if he is going to play to the same exact bunch of tropes and stereotypes that so many hundreds of others have done before, why has he bothered?

 

 

Now _here's_ a weird thing:

 

I like dwarves.  Not because they are super-cool and better than everyone at everything, etc, etc, but because by the stereotype, they want to be left alone, and prefer to be by themselves with a job to do.

 

 

I can totally get into that!

 

But again-- is it culture?  Are hill dwarves and cave dwarves all like this because they are dwarves?  Or is it just the way that this particular clan of dwarves has been raised to think?

 

 

[Lord Liaden]

1 hour ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

But people keep coming back to Tolkien, Tolkien, Tolkien.  My main influences are much earlier than that, stuff like Faerie Queen and King Arthur and Roland and Norse and Greek mythology, and books like Fafhrd and Gray Mouser or Elric of Melibone (*cough* an interesting take on elves).  Elves were not invented by JRR Tolkien.  They weren't even defined by Tolkien.  He has his version, others have theirs.

 

It's my conclusion that the Champions Universe's alien Mandaarians are space Noldor, while its Malvans are space Melniboneans. Not exactly analogous, of course, but for a shorthand description that fits pretty well IMHO.

[Chris Goodwin]

Duke, I am out of reactions for the day, apparently!

[SCUBA Hero]

15 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

I tend to agree with Chris on this, SCUBA  (no offense)

 

No offense taken. 🙂  You and me, we don't have a problem. 👍

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

Obviously, I haven't played everything, but I have played a lot of things with elves and elf-alikes.  If it was fantasy, they were Tolkien-esque elves every time. 

 

...I guess you're defining Tolkienesque differently than I am here.  Do you mean "humanoid with pointy ears" or something?  What is your definition of Tolkienesque elves and how does that apply to the various games and their elf variants I listed?

[tombrown803]

When reading the title, my first thought was "chicken"

 

[archer]

4 hours ago, Chris Goodwin said:

What exactly can be done with elves and other races that hasn't already been done to death? 

 

 

Tolkien had basically two types of elves, those who went to the lands of the gods and learned metallurgy and sciences & those who stayed behind in the dark then never advanced as much as the others.

 

Then the ones who came back to Middle Earth after the sun was created mostly reverted.

 

D&D seems to deal with elves as if they're granola-crunching individualists who never create cities or infrastructure for a technological civilization.

 

====

 

I thought it'd be interesting to deal with elves as those granola-crunching individualists who never create cities or infrastructure for a technological civilization...who happened to live next to (essentially) African animist tribes (or Australian aborigines) who shared a lot of the elves distain for technology and cities.

 

So the elves of today are mostly intermarried with black tribes. 

 

In the vast savannahs, they often pursue a nomadic lifestyle.

 

In areas with more rainfall, they do subsistence farming and are elaborate storytellers and gift the world with a large number of bards. 

 

In coastal regions, many of them take to the seas. Some of them have used magic to revert to a form suited for living underwater. Others fish. Many live close to large ports and are coveted by captains for their seamanship.

 

But in any case, most "elves" which you meet are at least part-human. And all are black.

[assault]

Well, my elves are very very small, blue and wear Phrygian caps. And all male, except where human wizards have interfered.

 

And their name for themselves is Schtroumpf.

[DShomshak]

On 3/4/2022 at 3:19 PM, Duke Bushido said:

At any rate: yes; I get you're point: most people know that this means that, the other thing means that other thing, and have a vague idea of how they interact, what their societies are like, etc, which makes a significant reduction in the amount of work someone would have to do when presenting his setting.   But if he is going to play to the same exact bunch of tropes and stereotypes that so many hundreds of others have done before, why has he bothered?

 

Among gamers, at least, because most people don't have the time, the skills, or the interest to create entire worlds from scratch. Or, likely, to assimilate worlds that were. And there's nothing wrong with that.

 

"Thank you, Captain Obvious."

 

Beyond that, I could pontificate about the difference between folk art and high art, but I fear that would only pour gasoline on a fire I would rather see go out.

 

Dean Shomshak

[drunkonduty]

I'm about to embark on an Urban Fantasy game. I have in fact been wondering about what the elves will be like for this game. Assuming there are any. There may not be. My players and I are having a brain storming session this weekend. Ideas will be thrown out and voted on. I'm going to throw fae into the mix, they may not get the votes to be included.

 

But if they are I want my elves to be classic fae; weird, otherworldly, and very dangerous. Some of them will look like Tolkien elves but they won't be behaving like them.

 

Aaaaannnnnd here is where I'm running out of ideas on exactly what they should be like. Anyone got any suggestions?

 

 

[Chris Goodwin]

If they do exist, what's their history in the world?  Why are they showing themselves now?  Can players choose to play them?

[archer]

2 hours ago, drunkonduty said:

I'm about to embark on an Urban Fantasy game. I have in fact been wondering about what the elves will be like for this game. Assuming there are any. There may not be. My players and I are having a brain storming session this weekend. Ideas will be thrown out and voted on. I'm going to throw fae into the mix, they may not get the votes to be included.

 

But if they are I want my elves to be classic fae; weird, otherworldly, and very dangerous. Some of them will look like Tolkien elves but they won't be behaving like them.

 

Aaaaannnnnd here is where I'm running out of ideas on exactly what they should be like. Anyone got any suggestions?

 

 

 

Non-technological. A crossbow is too complicated for their preferred level of culture.

 

No need to eat. That makes them automatically not carnivores and not much need to create wagons, roads, or farms. (Maybe make them green=skinned with green blood if you want to suggest they might be plant-based.)

 

Ones who master magic to cover things like "Change Environment to make themselves comfortable" are likely to be nudists.

 

Zero interest in sex outside their species (the biochemical signals are just wrong).

 

Very patient, with a non-hectic lifestyle. Able to sit still thinking or observing for hours at a time.

 

Alcohol doesn't give them a buzz unless it's turned to vinegar (though some like the sensation of drinking typical alcoholic beverages or milk).

 

They like studying other cultures and seem fascinated by other species' fixation on technology. They produce fine sages and scholars if you don't mind learning things from their culture's perspective.

 

Over the centuries they've adapted quite thoroughly to the idea of having and using other culture's currency for transactions.

[assault]

3 hours ago, drunkonduty said:

But if they are I want my elves to be classic fae; weird, otherworldly, and very dangerous. Some of them will look like Tolkien elves but they won't be behaving like them.

 

Aaaaannnnnd here is where I'm running out of ideas on exactly what they should be like. Anyone got any suggestions?

 

Steal from Terry Pratchett of course. The elves in Lords and Ladies are exactly this.

And/or steal from Three Hearts and Three Lions. I'm pretty sure Pratchett did.

[Lord Liaden]

5 hours ago, assault said:

 

Steal from Terry Pratchett of course. The elves in Lords and Ladies are exactly this.

And/or steal from Three Hearts and Three Lions. I'm pretty sure Pratchett did.

 

Besides Poul Anderson's Three Hearts..., you could also look at his novel The Broken Sword. The latter gives a broader picture of elven culture. Note that his elves are beautiful, sophisticated, and magical, like Tolkien's, but like classic folkloric elves they're extremely fickle, generous or cruel as the mood strikes them.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Could make elves magical vampires; they subsist on mystical energy and it makes them stoned and, well, elfy -- that faerie, otherworldly behavior.  Without it they start to become vicious, cruel, heartless, and even predatory.

[eepjr24]

I don't have a lot to add on elves specifically, but I prefer games without the typical D&D racial tropes or even hard skew racial bias toward morality or immorality. The campaign I am currently working on has some non-humans, they pre-existed the humans and are animal hybrids of various types. They are largely in hiding now due to conflict and prejudice having driven their numbers down to a level that does not let them subsist in open conflict with humans.

 

As to what alternate races allow us to do that having humans alone does not... nothing if the players and GM are open minded enough. But it does allow people who are less open to confronting their own internal biases to see those played out among a different kind of "other" and potentially a safe environment for them to change their minds and become more accepting of their fellow humans of other ethnicities, gender preferences, social classes, etc.

 

- E

[DShomshak]

13 hours ago, drunkonduty said:

I'm about to embark on an Urban Fantasy game. I have in fact been wondering about what the elves will be like for this game. Assuming there are any.

Urban Fantasy: As in, "Modern world with myth and magic secretly alongside"? In that case, an easy place to start is actual folklore. Your elves aren't elves: They are the Sidhe, or the Tylwyth Teg, or huldra-folk, or youkai, or celestial maidens, or, um, whatever Filipino elves are called. Pick a culture, or cultures, read up on the folklore, and decide what parts are true, what's false, and what's a mortal misinterpretation.

 

Dean Shomshak

[Chris Goodwin]

If you do include them, I'm glad that you're doing so thoughtfully, and not as some sort of almost tautological requirement of the genre.