Christopher R Taylor Posted March 8, 2022 Report Share Posted March 8, 2022 The thing is, you need to put the same kind of scrutiny and thought into every race, not just the (inexplicably) hated elf. What are your humans like? If you say "the blank template" then you're cheating players by not providing at least the same level of cultural and game-impact thought into them as you have every other race. Each race for a fantasy or sci fi setting is just that: a race. You start with nothing and offer the templates for each one, and they all should matter and show thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eepjr24 Posted March 8, 2022 Report Share Posted March 8, 2022 5 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said: The thing is, you need to put the same kind of scrutiny and thought into every race, not just the (inexplicably) hated elf. What are your humans like? If you say "the blank template" then you're cheating players by not providing at least the same level of cultural and game-impact thought into them as you have every other race. Each race for a fantasy or sci fi setting is just that: a race. You start with nothing and offer the templates for each one, and they all should matter and show thought. I know some will say this is over the top, but if you only have one template for your humans, you are shorting yourself. Factions exist within groups, groups themselves have different cultures with a regional area (country or otherwise), which change as you get to larger regions with commonalities and differences affecting conflict, trade and all the other human interactions that are important to RPG's. Your other "races" should be just as complex and nuanced. - E Christopher R Taylor, drunkonduty and Lord Liaden 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted March 8, 2022 Report Share Posted March 8, 2022 I solve this idea with one racial template, but multiple cultural ones. Which any race can take. You're a dwarf raised with Varcol? Take a Varcol cultural package. Lord Liaden and eepjr24 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eepjr24 Posted March 8, 2022 Report Share Posted March 8, 2022 51 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said: I solve this idea with one racial template, but multiple cultural ones. Which any race can take. You're a dwarf raised with Varcol? Take the Varcol cultural package. This is a great idea for the implementation in the game, but for me is predicated by the GM understanding / documenting the cultures so that all aspects are present to build the knowledge skills, everyman skills, common professions, etc. You might not think that all that detail is required but you'll find it is surprisingly easy to answer players questions about a race if you have some of this detail laid out and ready to build on. Good discussion, though. And I think if you do this exercise, the races you decide to use (elves, kzinti, zvarts, whatever) will feel real and unique to your setting instead of being "hated elves" or humdrum hobbits. - E Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drunkonduty Posted March 9, 2022 Report Share Posted March 9, 2022 17 hours ago, Chris Goodwin said: If they do exist, what's their history in the world? Why are they showing themselves now? Can players choose to play them? At this time I can only answer the third question: yes. The setting is as yet too undefined for me to be able to answer "what their relationship with the mortal world was/is." Buuuuut... I think I'll take on Dean Shomshak's suggestion and base them on actual folkloric creatures. This suggests to me that they've been around for a long time and their interactions with mortals have been varied. Very varied. Some good, some bad. 7 hours ago, DShomshak said: Urban Fantasy: As in, "Modern world with myth and magic secretly alongside"? In that case, an easy place to start is actual folklore. Your elves aren't elves: They are the Sidhe, or the Tylwyth Teg, or huldra-folk, or youkai, or celestial maidens, or, um, whatever Filipino elves are called. Pick a culture, or cultures, read up on the folklore, and decide what parts are true, what's false, and what's a mortal misinterpretation. Dean Shomshak I should probably share what I know about the campaign so far: Urban Fantasy, set in the 1980s. Characters are going to be starting as Highly Trained Normals-ish. I'm thinking 75 points, 50 points in disads, & 5 points in quirks (a la GURPS.) I say normals-ish as there's no requirement that anyone be human, or indeed, normal. If it can be built on 130 points it can be played. I want to set it in the UK but I'll have to see what everyone else thinks. The one (vague) character concept I've heard so far is: power ranger/ronin. And that's it. The rest is to be worked out in our brainstorming session this weekend. I don't know if the supernatural elements are out loud and proud in the world or if there's a masquerade. I don't know if the PCs will be working for some supernatural policing agency (like the Watcher's from Buffy) or will be a bunch of misfit "monsters" as in Being Human. Or both. Or something else entirely. Will the campaign be a grey coloured, gothic, mope-fest or will it be brightly coloured pop-anime? I don't know but I'm excited to find out. I admit I have asked my question somewhat prematurely. But I'm excited and the thread was right here. 😁 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted March 9, 2022 Report Share Posted March 9, 2022 5 hours ago, eepjr24 said: I know some will say this is over the top, but if you only have one template for your humans, you are shorting yourself. Factions exist within groups, groups themselves have different cultures with a regional area (country or otherwise), which change as you get to larger regions with commonalities and differences affecting conflict, trade and all the other human interactions that are important to RPG's. Your other "races" should be just as complex and nuanced. - E One of the things that impressed me about the world of Greyhawk, from the very beginning, was that "Men" were not just "Men." They came in different ethnicities, with distinctive physical appearances, languages, and their own unique cultural traditions in habit and belief, and usually originating from certain regions of the world. Game-mechanic wise that didn't often make a difference, but for role-playing purposes I found it easier to get a handle on who the character I was playing really was, as a person instead of just a stat block. (Hero's Turakian and Valdorian Age books take a similar tack.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Ruggels Posted March 9, 2022 Report Share Posted March 9, 2022 I watched the discussion of Elves on the other thread, and only had limited interaction. I am not a fan of the "Better in every way" Tolkeinesque Elves. Having them in games was a hold over from D&D, and everyone moving from D&D to any other Fantasy Tabletop expected the races to be included, mostly because folks moving away from D&D wanted a more "realistic" and "Less Arbitrary" rules system, but still wanted the background. At least that is how I remember it from the 70's and early 80s. Some of use got so sick of it, that we changed Genres, going to FGU's Bushido, or Traveller, or others at the time. The time was right for the launch of Champions at the time. My first Campaign in Fantasy Hero was sort of the usual N/W Europe based Fantasy, with the Tolkien races about, just because it was Tradition, but There were a few twists. The Current Campaign has no Tolkien races, and has large human empires, but low to no magic. (What magic there is is alchemical based, so no spells or spell combat. Without Magic based healing, players tend to be extremely risk averse, and take few chances and flee from foes that do not prefer diplomacy. Not a whole lot of fun for me to run.) Duke Bushido and Chris Goodwin 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted March 10, 2022 Report Share Posted March 10, 2022 I pointed this out earlier, but even in AD&D, elves were just a different group. They weren't more powerful and impressive, they had strict maximum level limits, penalties to certain stats, and even an xp penalty as I recall. They can see in the dark (60 foot IR?) and had a few bonuses to some abilities, like DEX. That's it. Oh, and they lived ages, which had virtually no effect on the game unless a ghost touched you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archer Posted March 10, 2022 Report Share Posted March 10, 2022 9 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said: I pointed this out earlier, but even in AD&D, elves were just a different group. They weren't more powerful and impressive, they had strict maximum level limits, penalties to certain stats, and even an xp penalty as I recall. They can see in the dark (60 foot IR?) and had a few bonuses to some abilities, like DEX. That's it. Oh, and they lived ages, which had virtually no effect on the game unless a ghost touched you. If you played a lot of one-shot sessions, characters made up to play a module, and a series of "campaigns" which never lasted more than a level or two, things like "level caps" and xp penalties might as well not exist compared to the benefits of IR, a DEX bonus, and IIRC immunity to charm and sleep spells. I think that's where a lot of the D&D elf stigma came from. The designers put in things which limited elves if played in a long-term campaign when many people weren't playing in long-term campaigns. Personally I always played half-elves in that era because you got most of the elf benefits, none of the short-term elf penalties that I recall, and long-term penalties which were never going to happen because campaigns always fell apart. It took a long time before D&D made efforts which more or less balanced races whether played in a long term campaign or in other settings. At least that's my impression since I moved away from D&D as much as possible after that era. 2 cents Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted March 10, 2022 Report Share Posted March 10, 2022 There's probably something to that, I suspect a lot of groups just ignored level caps as well or didn't know about some of the other restrictions in the GM Guide on races. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Bushido Posted March 10, 2022 Report Share Posted March 10, 2022 On 3/4/2022 at 10:55 PM, assault said: Well, my elves are very very small, blue and wear Phrygian caps. Thanks, Assault! I haven't had to do that in a very long time. I had forgotten how much fun it is! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grailknight Posted March 11, 2022 Report Share Posted March 11, 2022 On 3/7/2022 at 11:12 PM, drunkonduty said: I'm about to embark on an Urban Fantasy game. I have in fact been wondering about what the elves will be like for this game. Assuming there are any. There may not be. My players and I are having a brain storming session this weekend. Ideas will be thrown out and voted on. I'm going to throw fae into the mix, they may not get the votes to be included. But if they are I want my elves to be classic fae; weird, otherworldly, and very dangerous. Some of them will look like Tolkien elves but they won't be behaving like them. Aaaaannnnnd here is where I'm running out of ideas on exactly what they should be like. Anyone got any suggestions? Use Dresdenverse elves. Good take on classic Sidhe tropes moved to modern times. Steve and drunkonduty 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Goodwin Posted March 11, 2022 Author Report Share Posted March 11, 2022 On 3/4/2022 at 7:55 PM, assault said: Well, my elves are very very small, blue and wear Phrygian caps. Smurfy! 3 hours ago, Duke Bushido said: Thanks, Assault! I haven't had to do that in a very long time. I had forgotten how much fun it is! What, smurfing? Smurfing is fun! You might even say it's... smurfy! assault 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drunkonduty Posted March 11, 2022 Report Share Posted March 11, 2022 7 hours ago, Grailknight said: Use Dresdenverse elves. Good take on classic Sidhe tropes moved to modern times. Yeah, this is a good idea. The question is how modern should the elves be? I think some should be pretty well acculturated, others less so. Yet others who think they're acculturated but aren't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Bushido Posted March 11, 2022 Report Share Posted March 11, 2022 13 hours ago, Chris Goodwin said: Smurfy! What, smurfing? Smurfing is fun! You might even say it's... smurfy! Use a dictionary, actually. Phrygian was a new one on me. assault 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steriaca Posted March 11, 2022 Report Share Posted March 11, 2022 Carnovoric. They are meat eating plant based people. They are what they eat, after all. drunkonduty 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tkdguy Posted March 12, 2022 Report Share Posted March 12, 2022 In Glorantha (a Runequest setting) elves are sentient plants and are collectively called the Aldryami. Various types of elves exist and can have significant differences. Of course, there's nothing wrong with using folklore as a reference. Christopher R Taylor and drunkonduty 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Bushido Posted March 12, 2022 Report Share Posted March 12, 2022 That was sort of the vibe I got from Delvians in Farscape: elves, but plant-based. I have less issues with the idea of living for thousands of years when the species isn't mammalian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steriaca Posted March 12, 2022 Report Share Posted March 12, 2022 34 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said: That was sort of the vibe I got from Delvians in Farscape: elves, but plant-based. I have less issues with the idea of living for thousands of years when the species isn't mammalian. Kinda inspired by a friend of mine's take and headcanon about the two "Nega-elves" Ail and Ann from Sailor Moon R, and expanding them into an entire race. They can photosynthesize, take and drain energy, and can even eat plant and animal mater if necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted March 12, 2022 Report Share Posted March 12, 2022 11 hours ago, tkdguy said: In Glorantha (a Runequest setting) elves are sentient plants and are collectively called the Aldryami. Various types of elves exist and can have significant differences. Of course, there's nothing wrong with using folklore as a reference. But if you're going to be true to the folklore, you need to be cautious utilizing the Tuatha de Danann. They were effectively the gods of pagan Ireland, with all that implies. tkdguy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assault Posted March 12, 2022 Report Share Posted March 12, 2022 2 hours ago, Lord Liaden said: But if you're going to be true to the folklore, you need to be cautious utilizing the Tuatha de Danann. They were effectively the gods of pagan Ireland, with all that implies. But at least they're not better than humans in every way... Oh, right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tkdguy Posted March 13, 2022 Report Share Posted March 13, 2022 Don't forget the Tuatha de Danaan got their butts kicked by humans, which is why they literally went underground. I just bought this book from DriveThruRPG. It details different types of elves, dwarves, and goblins. It's completely system neutral (no game stats, just descriptions) so you can use them in any system or for writing stories. I also recommend this classic. I wasn't sure it was still in print. It is a collection of folklore from around Europe. drunkonduty 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted March 13, 2022 Report Share Posted March 13, 2022 22 minutes ago, tkdguy said: Don't forget the Tuatha de Danaan got their butts kicked by humans, which is why they literally went underground. Yeah, but those were the Milesians, legendary ancestors of the Irish. Nobody's better than the Irish at poetry and butt-kicking. tkdguy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNaga Posted March 15, 2022 Report Share Posted March 15, 2022 On 3/4/2022 at 9:55 PM, assault said: Well, my elves are very very small, blue and wear Phrygian caps. And all male, except where human wizards have interfered. And their name for themselves is Schtroumpf. You made me think of the Smurf. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Bushido Posted March 15, 2022 Report Share Posted March 15, 2022 On 3/12/2022 at 11:07 PM, Lord Liaden said: Nobody's better than the Irish at poetry and butt-kicking. Just ask Alister Crowley Even a great sorcerer is no match for Yeats. assault 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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