"What are the elves like?"

[Ninja-Bear]

10 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

 

Nope.

 

To be fair, it had nothing to do with material itself; it is more a matyer of lifestyle: I work between sixty and eighty hours a week, and amongst other things, I game and het ready to game.  I dont watch much television at all.  I nvere really did, though, having grown up without television, I never for indoctrinated into the habit like most people in my age group, and now that I sit here thinking about it, I dont think I have watched _anything_ regularly since Futuarama got canned the last time.

 

 

No problem. My wife (of all people) got hooked on it. I referenced it only because I saw it. If you get bored, I’m sure there is a wiki somewhere that talks about them. And if I remember too, I’ll look one up.

[Ninja-Bear]

10 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

I'll bite.

 

Without any facetiousness; because I am interested in what you have been saying thus far:

 

Why not?

 

 

 

Exactly, I’m not saying you should or shouldn’t have them. If you like elves, include them. If you want elves and don’t like Tolkien, change it. If you don’t like them don’t feel you must have them. My only caveat is that since this is a group endeavor how much of your personal taste of elves be a game breaker? Can you not compromise? So a GM and several players don’t like elves and you do. Can you not play another character that has some of the traits of an elf? Or as a GM, if you don’t like elves and a player likes them can you talk to the player and see what can be changed to allow an elf? I heard one guy (proudly) say that he doesn’t let any of his players play Wookiee unless they can sound like one. I questioned him on that. To me getting friends together to roll dice and play a game trumps many issues. If the players are having fun, I’m having fun.

[Duke Bushido]

1 hour ago, Ninja-Bear said:

No problem. My wife (of all people) got hooked on it. I referenced it only because I saw it. If you get bored, I’m sure there is a wiki somewhere that talks about them. And if I remember too, I’ll look one up.

 

Thanks, but at this point, I think I have seen enough memes to rebuild the plot, and I have already been rols (without roon for discussion) that I will hate how it ends.   

 

 

[tkdguy]

I have considered making a campaign look like the Wood Elves in the Rankin/Bass Hobbit cartoon.

 

 

 

If you want elves to be like hobbits use the animated Flight of Dragons version instead.

 

http://www.midnightonly.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Flight-of-Dragons-2.jpg

[TheNaga]

On 3/25/2022 at 2:11 PM, tkdguy said:

I have considered making a campaign look like the Wood Elves in the Rankin/Bass Hobbit cartoon.

 

 

 

If you want elves to be like hobbits use the animated Flight of Dragons version instead.

 

http://www.midnightonly.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Flight-of-Dragons-2.jpg

The elves from the Hobbit cartoon make me think of goblins.

[mallet]

Why have Elves, or Halflings or Orcs or Dragons any other species besides humans? 

 

Well if you are doing Fantasy (and not alt-History) then the setting is going to have some degree of Magic in it. Magic is part of what makes Fantasy fantasy. 

And if you have Magic, then you have the Supernatural. And if you have the Supernatural, then you have Gods, or at least one God. 

 

In pretty much every fantasy with more then one God, each God made their own Species to have as followers. And each God made each Species unique to them and inspired by their interests and goals. 

Over time the influence, power or interest of the Gods might have faded leaving each Species on their own to do what they wanted, but they were all created originally by the Gods. 

 

Now do these species have to be humans, elves, dwarves, goblins, etc... No, but this is a game were are playing, not someone's personal novel, so it helps to have archetypes for players to choose from and that they will readily understand. Sure you could make a fantasy game where there are no humans, elves, etc... and instead there is a race of land dwelling Octopi and another race of large slugs and another race of oozing goo. And the players have to choose one of those races to play in the campaign, but good luck finding enough players who want to do that. Humanoid races are relatable to us, and slight differences both physical and cultural give players extra choices and a chance to play "something different, but the same."

 

TL;DR: No evolution in fantasy, species created by Gods to fit their interests and goals. You could do away with all humanoids, but not many people would want to play non-humanoid characters. Its a game so give people what they want. 

[tkdguy]

2 hours ago, TheNaga said:

The elves from the Hobbit cartoon make me think of goblins.

 

You can always make elves and goblins the same race. The good ones are called elves, the bad ones goblins.

 

You can run a fantasy game without elves and other nonhumans. Lots of classic fantasy novels don't include them. Conan is the most popular example, but don't forget about Thieves' World and the Fafhrd & Grey Mouser stories.

 

If you want fantasy races but not elves, you can draw from the MythAdventures series for inspiration. The Talislanta RPG is also good. Note that the game has several races that resemble elves despite the "No Elves" tagline.

 

2 hours ago, mallet said:

Well if you are doing Fantasy (and not alt-History) then the setting is going to have some degree of Magic in it. Magic is part of what makes Fantasy fantasy. 

And if you have Magic, then you have the Supernatural. And if you have the Supernatural, then you have Gods, or at least one God. 

 

I don't define fantasy as magic being present in the world. I define it as a story or game set in an imaginary world, whether or not magic exists there. Tales set in our world with the inclusion of magic would also count as fantasy. Clerical magic can be a slippery slope in a game set in our world. Lots of stories about miracles are articles of faith, which I tend to avoid. But I wouldn't be averse to running a game set in Medieval Europe with clerics casting low-level spells.

 

For me, alt-history has to take place in our world, whether it is magic or not. I would consider a historical campaign with very little magic or even just psionics alt-history, but I would term an imaginary low-tech world (even with parallels from our world) without magic very low fantasy. But it all depends on how you define fantasy.

[Hermit]

1 hour ago, tkdguy said:

 

 

 

If you want fantasy races but not elves, you can draw from the MythAdventures series for inspiration. The Talislanta RPG is also good. Note that the game has several races that resemble elves despite the "No Elves" tagline.

 

 

Who wouldn't want to be a Perv-ect?

[Duke Bushido]

I agree with TDK,

 

So much so, in fact that I am almost loathe to point out the reptile / snake men in Conan. 

 

they sisnt come,up a lot, but even,in the movie, Jamws Eral,Jones played one.

[tkdguy]

1 hour ago, Duke Bushido said:

I agree with TDK,

 

So much so, in fact that I am almost loathe to point out the reptile / snake men in Conan. 

 

they sisnt come,up a lot, but even,in the movie, Jamws Eral,Jones played one.

 

Thanks for reminding me about the snake men. However, they appear so rarely, you can just consider them monsters for rpg purposes. After all, they're always the enemy instead of some NPC the heroes interact with.

[Lord Liaden]

Hero Games' The Valdorian Age took the concept a little farther, briefly outlining a race of reptilian shape-shifters, the Silyssen, who have infiltrated and even subverted some human lands. There's reason to suspect they may have been the ancestors of Hero's later Lemurians. Steve Long is fond of his own race of Serpent-Men, or Ssujala, who appear in the Turakian and Atlantean Age settings, and in the modern world at least up to the pulp era, usually as a hidden underground civilization.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I went wild with races long ago in my fantasy campaign but almost nobody played any of them.  I had bear people, lizard people, cat people wolf people, rat people, centaurs, faeries, several kinds of elves and dwarves.

 

I think a centaur makes for an awesome character concept but nobody else did.  One guy played a faerie to really great effect, but that's it.  Eventually I just dropped most of the races.  If nobody wants them then why have em?

[tkdguy]

I find the "less is more" approach works best for me. Humans, elves, dwarves, and halflings are enough for me. Maybe include half-elves, but they'd be very rare.

[tkdguy]

Here's an alternative to the Tolkien-style elves. Even if you don't buy the miniatures, you can go for the general look.

 

 

[Michael Hopcroft]

So who builds Santa's toys?

 

[Duke Bushido]

Seven-year-old Chinese kids.

[tkdguy]

I remember reading an issue of Dragon Magazine where the editors printed some of the stranger letters they received (Dragon often did that in their April Fools issue). One writer claimed Santa's "elves" were actually dwarves. The writer apparently sent some diagrams and pictures as proof.

[Old Man]

One thing I forgot to mention earlier is that elves in certain game systems tend to attract a certain type of gamer that is, shall we say, looking for any possible advantage over anything he might encounter in game, and even the other PCs.  Sees in the dark!  Doesn't have to sleep!  Immune to poisons and magics!  Swings swords and slings spells!  Better looking! 

 

This is why it is critical--critical--that elves not be allowed to grow facial hair in-game.

[Ninja-Bear]

4 hours ago, Old Man said:

One thing I forgot to mention earlier is that elves in certain game systems tend to attract a certain type of gamer that is, shall we say, looking for any possible advantage over anything he might encounter in game, and even the other PCs.  Sees in the dark!  Doesn't have to sleep!  Immune to poisons and magics!  Swings swords and slings spells!  Better looking! 

 

This is why it is critical--critical--that elves not be allowed to grow facial hair in-game.

That’s a good point. But that’s not necessarily a good reason as to not have Elves. Because those types of players sans Elves will try to find those advantages from any other race or class.

[Duke Bushido]

8 hours ago, Old Man said:

One thing I forgot to mention earlier is that elves in certain game systems tend to attract a certain type of gamer that is, shall we say, looking for any possible advantage over anything he might encounter in game, and even the other PCs.  Sees in the dark!  Doesn't have to sleep!  Immune to poisons and magics!  Swings swords and slings spells!  Better looking! 

 

This is why it is critical--critical--that elves not be allowed to grow facial hair in-game.

 

Even it up.

 

Give them,cloacas.  Keep all the advantages, and the first tine he name drops about some great and legendary ancestor, all the other elves in the room drop to their knee, bow their heads and yell "Bless his mighty cloaca!"

 

See just how committed they are to playing an elf versus getting free advantages,

 

 

 

[Scott Ruggels]

On 3/28/2022 at 12:23 PM, mallet said:

Why have Elves, or Halflings or Orcs or Dragons any other species besides humans? 

 

Well if you are doing Fantasy (and not alt-History) then the setting is going to have some degree of Magic in it. Magic is part of what makes Fantasy fantasy. 

And if you have Magic, then you have the Supernatural. And if you have the Supernatural, then you have Gods, or at least one God. 

 

it’s not a bad premise, however I am still running a PBP game, where there is no magic, but it is most assuredly a fantasy game. The fantasy is, fictional countries, A couple of nonhuman species, and occasionally odd weather. No magic though.

 

On 3/28/2022 at 12:23 PM, mallet said:

On 3/28/2022 at 12:23 PM, mallet said:

TL;DR: No evolution in fantasy, species created by Gods to fit their interests and goals. You could do away with all humanoids, but not many people would want to play non-humanoid characters. Its a game so give people what they want. 

Well, the “no magic” fantasy game did include non-humans that the player specifically asked for. They’re quite happy with it.

[DShomshak]

As for, "How many races?" I must again bring up Exalted. Yes, there are actual nonhumans, some of them even (technically) playable, but they are kind of niche and peripheral. Most notably, they cannot become Exalted as magical superhumans, and the game's name is, after all, Exalted. Only humans can become Exalted, and outnumber other mortal sapients by, at a guess, tens of thousands to one.

 

But Exalted also has it both ways. From another POV the number of sapient "races" is arbitrarily large, because various magical phenomena can alter humans pretty drastically, in ways that breed true. In the past, the Exalted of the Old Realm engineered human subspecies to serve different functions and live in different environments; some of them are still around. The taint of Primal Chaos seeping in from the edge of the world can mutate people in diverse ways. The shapeshifting Lunar Exalted have bred many races of animalistic beastmen. But all these peoples remain theologically human: They can all Exalt... and they are all playable, fitting easily within the rules for character creation.

 

Want to play a yeti who is also a fateweaving kung fu secret agent of Heaven? You can do it. Want to play an elementally powered Dragon-Blood who is also also one of the Horse-Legged Folk from the Chinese Classic of Mountains and Seas? You can do that too. If your Storyteller can fit it into the campaign, the rules will support it.

 

Dean Shomshak

[tkdguy]

I have done fantasy without magic and nonhumans. It was set closer to the Age of Reason than the Middle Ages and had some eastern influences (like unarmed martial arts), but it was definitely fantasy, set in a different solar system.

 

If you use low fantasy, you can include evolution. One idea I had but never play-tested was having elves, dwarves, etc. evolve as branches of humanity. The "magic" present in the campaign was based on psychic ability and was very limited in power. Killer Shrike kindly wrote up some racial package deals for me.

 

I posted these ideas here many years ago, but they may still be archived somewhere.