Welcome to Hobbiton

[Asperion]

So as to not derail this thread, let's start another one.  As usual,  people cannot come to an agreement on the subject - the hobbit.  Are they miniihimans, dwarven offshoots,  elvish subclass,  something else? While I have my personal answer,  I would like others to make their statement (and reasons) before I return. Now let all the arguments fly. 

[Ninja-Bear]

Here’s my view of Hobbits. I have read the book and enjoy them-books and hobbits. Could I play a game with them in or even play a hobbit? Yup. Do I need them in a homebrew game? No, not really. Do I have a suitable background for them? No. And probably why I wouldn’t include them in a game. (Again not a game breaker if they were wanted in a game.)

[archer]

Well, with the real-life hobbits, scholars agree that they were a subspecies of humanity.

 

I think it's probably best to think of them like that for gaming purposes since they, as a culture in fiction, behave more like human civilians than like dwarves or elves.

[Lord Liaden]

Hero's Turakian Age setting takes some interesting turns regarding Hobbits (or Halflings, for legal purposes).   They were originally widespread throughout the vast region called the Westerlands, but as the Ardunans (the dominant civilization of Men on the larger continent of Arduna) migrated into the Westerlands they pushed the hobbits out of the best areas, killing many of the smaller humanoids. The famous Hobbit stealthiness arose out of necessity to survive. Most of those Hobbits who remain live pretty much the cliche lifestyle of Hobbits and are subjects of realms of Men, with that assimilation explaining their common designation, "Halfling" (from a human perspective), and their relative lack of distinctive culture compared to other races. However, many Halflings still hold deep resentment toward Men for how their ancestors were abused.

 

The city of Aarn, largest in the world, has 7% of its population listed as Halfling, which AFAICT is the biggest population of "urban" Hobbits in TA. As a by-product of their fondness for fine food and drink, Hobbits often work in cities as cooks, bakers,  brewers, or vintners. I would expect them to be major factions in the guilds for those professions. As well, with their small size and stealthiness they should be very influential within the Thieves Guilds of Aarn and other major cities in the Westerlands. For my own games I decreed that the mysterious Lord Ebon who leads the largest thieves guild of Aarn, is actually a hobbit who maintains that front for greater intimidation than he could muster in reality.

 

On the smaller continent of Mitharia, the small kingdom of Khrisulia has a sizeable hobbit population. Khrisulia is a tough and rugged land, having attracted and bred people of similar temperament. Khrisulian hobbits call themselves "Mountain Halflings," and would make good adventuring characters who break some of the cliches.

 

The closest thing the TA hobbits have to their own country is the county of Myrwick Strand, within the human kingdom of Keldravia in the Westerlands. Although nominally independent, their count is tributary to Keldravia, and sometimes the hobbits have trouble gathering enough treasure to meet the annual tribute; a good incentive for a Myrwick hobbit to go adventuring.

 

Halflings are noted as being interfertile with Dwarves, and the product of their union are Gnomes.   However, Gnomes have proven capable of reproducing among themselves, having become a quite successful and widespread unique race, more distinctive and flexible in some ways than hobbits.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Like I said in the elf discussion, I don't like Hobbits outside Tolkien's writing.  They were created by Tolkien specifically for his story for a particular role in that story.  They just don't work anywhere else for me.

[Lord Liaden]

Noted. Moving on.

[assault]

1 hour ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Like I said in the elf discussion, I don't like Hobbits outside Tolkien's writing.  They were created by Tolkien specifically for his story for a particular role in that story.  They just don't work anywhere else for me.

 

This is true, and Lord Liaden's outline of their presence in the Turakian Age highlights that. There's a terrible whiff of "people want us to have them, so we'll shove them in".

 

Still, Tolkien's Hobbits are interesting. They have, of course, an idealized Englishness - one free of cities, or industry. In fact, the period of Sharkey's rule had marked overtones of the Industrial Revolution.

You could probably riff off this - with Sharkey getting the support of the Hobbit landowner class, instead of alienating them.

Hobbit landowner class? Oh my yes. What else were the Tooks and the Brandybucks? Why could Bilbo and Frodo loaf about in Bag End, while Sam and his family worked? Yes, there was their share of the dragon hoard - but Bilbo was doing it before that. There was a visible Hobbit gentry, shading into an outright aristocracy.

There's no need to have Hobbits to explore this, although using humans might be a bit too obvious.

 

So there's a place for "halflings", right there. They are human proxies.

In fact, you could even have stereotypical halfling Rogues - the dislocation of an Industrial Revolution, or even just enclosure of formerly common land, could easily produce the vagabond, dispossessed halflings that would have to take up the life of a Rogue.

 

But of course such things don't exist in most fantasy.

---
EDIT: This explains how New Zealand was settled by Hobbits. It was a penal colony!

(This started off as an Australia joke, but the Hobbit/New Zealand connection took over.)

[Hermit]

And now I feel like a soft touch again. I actually have grown fonder of Hobbits/Halflings as I've gone older (Though I've always liked Bilbo and Samwise long before any movies)

 

While Tolkien saw them as so close to humans as to be a branch of them IIRC, the vibe I got off Hobbits was that they had a touch of Hearth sprite to them. Maybe it's all the Took talk about fae relations. 

 

Just speaking for myself- I have zero problems with them in Table top settings. They don't have the 'ancient race' angle, but have a built in underestimated underdog aspect that I like; be it pastoral rustic folk thrust into adventure, or opportunistic little guy trying to score in a big world. Sure, you can (And most do) the same with humans, but in some games Halfling is almost , if you pardon the pun, shorthand , for david in a setting of goliaths. Elves have their ancient magics and arrows, Dwarves craft weapons of legend and know how to use them. Halflings, at least most PC halflings, have moxie and the advantage that everyone, even other halflings and sometimes themselves, doesn't expect much from them.  While there is a large diversity of settings with them  (From Shire Dwellers, to Caravan nomads, to Freaking CANIBALS! (Thanks, Dark Sun)) , I think that's my basic mindset: Halfling = Underdog.

 

And because of that, I have a hard time not rooting for them.

 

YMMV

[Hermit]

 

Oh, I should add, I have seen certain games where trying to play as a Kender (the halfling stand in for Dragonlance) is asking to be tied up, then rolled down a dungeon hallway to check for traps the hard way! 

[archer]

I'd rather play a Kender than a Hobbit. More interesting character traits.

 

The main complaint I've seen is players who prioritize the "lack of respecting property rights" but completely ignore the "interesting trumps valuable every time" aspect...and instead act like the only interesting things are valuable things.

 

Doors are locked not because they're protecting valuables but because people don't want you to see the wonderful things on the other side. And once you get inside, you're much more interested in looking around to find the majesty and wonder of the hidden and forbidden place than in finding valuables to pocket.

 

In HERO terms, Kender have the complication of Kleptomania - the recurrent inability to resist urges to steal items that you generally don't really need and that usually have little value. And because of that, they have to take at least Watched by City Guards. And Watched by Merchants. And Reputation: Kender.

 

If the GM explains to the would-be Kender player that his character is going to be in constant trouble with the law from stealing buttons, useless rocks, paperclips, and hairbrushes to the point that the law will strip them of whatever valuables which they intentionally steal, that ought to cool the jets of most players who aren't wanting to have some innocent fun with the character concept.

[Asperion]

Those are some good views about our wonderful hobbit. I have always held that hobbits are actually a combination of human, elves, and dwarves. Reasoning here follows: human since they have the rough nature that humanity shares,  love of cities and other human features.  The elvish component comes from their ability to throw with extreme accuracy (including most ranged weapons), and affinity towards nature.  Their dwarven nature appears in the way they live in underground homes,  have affinity towards gems and valuables (such as rings, jewelry,  etc) . They also display the dwarven resistance toward domination from outside sources. This is quite impressive for someone who is not even four feet tall!!

[Lord Liaden]

I believe this thread has demonstrated that if you do want to use hobbits, or a comparable "small" race, in your games, there are ways to approach them that take them beyond the stereotype, without losing all the qualities that can make them charming.

[Asperion]

18 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

I believe this thread has demonstrated that if you do want to use hobbits, or a comparable "small" race, in your games, there are ways to approach them that take them beyond the stereotype, without losing all the qualities that can make them charming.

 

This is effectively true for any race that one desires to use.  The only reason to maintain the core concept is if one is attempting to be in that original story.  Any other place, you can make any change to any race that you desire regardless of how much it varies from the original. 

[archer]

On 3/22/2022 at 2:57 PM, Christopher R Taylor said:

Like I said in the elf discussion, I don't like Hobbits outside Tolkien's writing.  They were created by Tolkien specifically for his story for a particular role in that story.  They just don't work anywhere else for me.

 

Well, hobbits are, by nature, the ultimate "stay at home" race of literature.

 

Kender, on the other hand, I could see showing up in any setting.

 

They'd be telling wild tales of their race originating on a world which had three moons, one of which was invisible (of all things) so that no one could see it. And how that the source of magic is wizards praying to one of the moons.

 

In any case, Kender are afflicted with an insatiable, and often fatal, wanderlust. And a curiosity to meddle with things even things which any sane person would leave alone. So they have a built-in excuse for showing up in any setting imaginable, if a GM wants them to show up there. 

[bluesguy]

In Nyonia, my campaign world, there is a race called Wangai.  They have some of the same stereotypes as Halflings/Hobbits but not all.  Because they are basically a peaceful folk they are very much tied to the goddess Peoni.  They also live next to another race (late-comers to the world) known as Koori (think of Vincent from Beauty & Beast TV show with Linda Hamilton).  When the Koori first appeared they thought of the Wangai food.

[Lord Liaden]

On 3/24/2022 at 11:15 AM, Asperion said:

 

This is effectively true for any race that one desires to use.  The only reason to maintain the core concept is if one is attempting to be in that original story.  Any other place, you can make any change to any race that you desire regardless of how much it varies from the original. 

 

Well, I would argue that another reason to maintain the core concept, is that one wants to play the core concept, but without all the attendant baggage that comes with the original story.

[DShomshak]

There are halflings in my "Magozoic" D&D campaign because it's a D&D campaign. I treat them mostly as just small humans. I have had no reason to develop their cultures to any great degree, in part because no one has yet asked to play one.

 

There are multiple halfling ethnicities. Halflings native to the heartlands of the Plenary Empire are called Leptopoda ("Lightfoots" -- no Stout subrace because their poison resistance schtick overlaps too much with dwarves.) Your basic peaceful agrarian folk, living in smallish hill areas with subterranean homes. Probably the most notable feature is that their gods form a divine village rather than the divine royal family so common among human cultures. There's no King of the Gods, there's a Mayor of the Gods. Other gods have similarly homely roles: shepherdess, wise old granny, artisans, farmers. No warriors or other "hero" types. Myths emphasize quick thinking and good sense, and usually end with everyone sitting down to a good dinner in good humor. Many Leptopoda have moved into human cities and assimilate well.

 

The Laterculi ("Bricklings" -- not their name for themselves) come from arid western lands that used to be part of the Plenary Empire, where they built pueblo-like adobe villages in oases. A long history of attacks from desert raiders made them clannish and suspicious of outsiders. They did not assimilate particularly well. The chief result of their becoming part of the Plenary Empire was to generate a national consciousness that they, as a whole, didn't belong in it. They got their wish when the western provinces broke away in the chaos following Panopticon's War. Then the Sorathite zealots returned from their long exile in the far west, conquered the whole regions, and gave the Laterculi the same choice they gave everyone else: convert or die. Plenary cities now have ghettoes of Laterculi refugees who still show no interest in assimilating.

 

Distant lands have their own halfling cultures. The port city of Thalassene has a small enclave of halflings from Vohai. Vohinese halflings have dark brown skin and straight black hair, often worn long in elaborate braids. These equatorial halflings introduced the Plenary Empire both to choolate and curry (Vohai is a major source of spices). Every lunch counter in Thalassene now includes a curry booth. Everyone knows, though, that for the very best curry you have to know someone in Little Vohai.

 

Dean Shomshak

[DShomshak]

For my "Fantasy Europe" alternate-history Fantasy Hero Campaign, I did a version of hobbits but they never came up in play. For this I emphasized the "Hidden Small Folk" trope, owing more to Pliny by way of Robert E. Howard that to J. R. R. Tolkien. (Though in the introduction to The Hobbit Tolkien said hobbits were still around, just staying out of sight from clumsy Big Folk.)

 

Humans called them Pygmies, or Picts. They took care to stay hidden, still living underground. They are still Stone Age folk, wielding spears, bows and arrows with points of chipped flint, and practicing their sacred rites in deep caves with paintings on the walls. Their lore-masters know much that Big Folk have forgotten or never knew. Their demons are the Unreborn, souls grown monstrous through refusal to submit to the cycle of reincarnation.

 

Some pygmies, however, resent the Big Folk who supplanted them. They form terrorist bands, using stealth, poison and dark magic drawn from the Unreborn to murder isolated communities of Big Folk... or, sometimes, entire neighborhoods of cities. They are called Goblins, and are justly feared.

 

Dean Shomshak

[Lord Liaden]

In my modified history of the Turakian Age, when Men first forced themselves into the parts of the Westerlands formerly inhabited by Halflings, some of those Halflings took to boats and fled west across the open sea. After much wandering and many harsh encounters remembered in their legends, the survivors made landfall and settled in what's known today as Wilderland, the far northeastern corner of Arduna, on the opposite side of that continent from where they departed. They dwell along the Bright River to the north of Khepras, and on the neighboring eastern coast. Calling themselves the Menepps (a name I borrowed from the Western Shores campaign setting for 4E Fantasy Hero, a northern people described as "diminutive but hearty folk"), their culture is a blend of elements of the Inuit (formerly called "Eskimos") and the Sámi (previously referred to as "Lapps").

[indy523]

On 3/22/2022 at 11:39 AM, Asperion said:

So as to not derail this thread, let's start another one.  As usual,  people cannot come to an agreement on the subject - the hobbit.  Are they miniihumans, dwarven offshoots,  elvish subclass,  something else? While I have my personal answer,  I would like others to make their statement (and reasons) before I return. Now let all the arguments fly. 

I am not sure but in Tolkein each of the races were created.  First the elves, then the dwarves, then men.  I am not sure when the hobbits come forward but I am told by people that there were not in the Silmirion but that is the one book I have not yet read.

[Lord Liaden]

It's almost a running joke in LOTR that hobbits were always being left out of the old legends and the old lists of the Speaking Peoples. When and how they came to be is never really defined the way the other races are. Gandalf is the only one of the Wise who studied them, or even paid them much heed, before the War of the Ring.

[Mr. R]

9 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

It's almost a running joke in LOTR that hobbits were always being left out of the old legends and the old lists of the Speaking Peoples. When and how they came to be is never really defined the way the other races are. Gandalf is the only one of the Wise who studied them, or even paid them much heed, before the War of the Ring.

I think that is because they represent to common man, the everyman.  The farmer who works his fields every day.  The village smith, who makes the little items that people need every day.  the seamstress who makes and mends the cloths that people use every day.  Historical research was usually of the "Great Men" types.  Who were the movers and shakers who moved nations.  The common people?  What can we learn from them?  (It turns out a lot, but it takes some digging)  Tolkien was defined by his times.  There needed no great history to the hobbits, because, well, they were common folk, not Great Folk.  

[Lord Liaden]

And yet Tolkien himself stated that this was the time for hobbits to rise up from their fields and shake the halls of the Mighty.  Those common people turned out to be utterly crucial to the fate of the world. They proved able to endure what none of the Great Folk could. The sentiment is almost democratic. 😉

[DShomshak]

Tolkien knew the tropes of myth and epic legend, and used them in constructing Middle-Earth. But he was also both a devout Catholic and a modern writer, so he was ready and willing to subvert those tropes. Deconstruction before deconstruction was a thing. 😉 So yes, the Great and the Wise (but Not Wise Enough) have ignored hobbits and never recorded their history because it wasn't a history of heroes and battles. But the standards of God confound the Wise and humble the Mighty.

 

Dean Shomshak