Would you allow your player to change their character mid-campaign

[Jujitsuguy]

I have a player in my Hero 6E campaign who has changed the character already once in the game prior to starting.  We have played six sessions, which is maybe 1/4 or 1/5 of the way through the campaign.

 

The player now wants to play a digressively different character, because he said it would be more fun.

 

Would any of you allow this?

 

As a GM, I am highly frustrated at this attitude period I believe it is showing a great disrespect for the effort that I’ve made to not only create this game, but I actually work with the players to create a backstory which will fit into the game and allow me to write their stories into the campaign material.

 

Am I wrong to think this way?

[Certified]

There are a number of factors here, from game system to campaign style. If you have long term story hooks that involve the character, that's probably something you should discuss with the player. There may be a chance to salvage the existing character, or bring back the original, if you are able to work with them to make changes to their power set, or some other aspect of the character. 

 

With that in mind, I think part of this comes back to session 0, and expressing the format of the campaign.  For my personal games, I don't have an issue with players character swapping, and in a super team, it's kind of expected as rarely do you see every here "on screen" at the same time, so I like to set up rotating conditions to bring heroes in and out. As I mentioned before, if we need a specific character for a part of the larger campaign, I'll let the player know that we want to spotlight this character and they can swap later. 

 

Sorry for the plug, but it relates to the conversation. The Metahumans Rising core book talks to these concepts for a session 0, people running multiple characters, one at a time, and swapping them in and out between stories.  

[tkdguy]

I've changed characters in the middle of a campaign, but I had good reasons. My character decided to leave to keep his family safe, and I felt he was underpowered anyway. I needed a new character who fit the campaign better.

 

You said the player thinks another character type may be more fun. You may want to ask him why he isn't enjoying playing the character and see how you guys can resolve the issue.

[Steve]

I think you need to settle with the player what “more fun” means. Are they not getting enough screen time? Are they not as effective as others in combat? Is the player borderline ADHD?

 

I throw the last one in because I’ve dealt with players that just keep wanting a change apparently for change’s sake and just never seem happy with their characters, like it’s boring for them to play the same thing more than once or twice.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yes, absolutely.  And its often a really great chance to have a really dramatic moment in the game when their old character retires, disappears, dies, whatever.  I've done it multiple times.   I've changed characters multiple times.

[Jujitsuguy]

1 hour ago, Steve said:

I think you need to settle with the player what “more fun” means. Are they not getting enough screen time? Are they not as effective as others in combat? Is the player borderline ADHD?

 

I throw the last one in because I’ve dealt with players that just keep wanting a change apparently for change’s sake and just never seem happy with their characters, like it’s boring for them to play the same thing more than once or twice.

Steve:

I thought the same thing ADHD....and yes, your explanation makes sense....

Jujitsuguy

5 hours ago, Certified said:

There are a number of factors here, from game system to campaign style. If you have long term story hooks that involve the character, that's probably something you should discuss with the player. There may be a chance to salvage the existing character, or bring back the original, if you are able to work with them to make changes to their power set, or some other aspect of the character. 

 

With that in mind, I think part of this comes back to session 0, and expressing the format of the campaign.  For my personal games, I don't have an issue with players character swapping, and in a super team, it's kind of expected as rarely do you see every here "on screen" at the same time, so I like to set up rotating conditions to bring heroes in and out. As I mentioned before, if we need a specific character for a part of the larger campaign, I'll let the player know that we want to spotlight this character and they can swap later. 

 

Sorry for the plug, but it relates to the conversation. The Metahumans Rising core book talks to these concepts for a session 0, people running multiple characters, one at a time, and swapping them in and out between stories.  

Certified:

Thanks for your plug, well-accepted and made me thing on this a little.

Prior to Session 0, as I "build" my character's storyline INTO the campaign, to make sure all are significant, I was very clear with them all.  All other players had no issue and were actually jazzed about their involvement in the game and are looking forward how they "fit".  As for the player in question, that player knew and beyond a shadow of a doubt prior to Session 0 they changed their character, making me "fix" all prior into and "fit" the new character into the timeline.  Now, this latest change may make it messed up, although I'll do what I can to "re-fit" them into the campaign.

Highly frustrating and as you note Steve's post, I did think my player has a form of ADHD, because they act like this as a GM at times.

[Jujitsuguy]

Gang:

 

In general, the person is only 1/4-1/5 through the campaign thus far and now doing this.  To me, unacceptable.  The same player dumps on other players if they don't like or agree w/ their character archetypes saying they are getting too much.

[Duke Bushido]

Once.

 

At this point, get him alone before or after a session and say "we have done this X times already, and I nees you to be aware of how this is both changing the game on the meta side- not through player agency, but by having to constantly,change the world to work in your new guys- and I need you to be aware of the negative impact all of this- the stopping, the changing, the rewrites, and even your dumping on everyone else is impacting the game and everyone else's enjoyment of it.

 

We Will make a change, _one_ more time.  What I strongly suggest is that we don't do it tonight.  Soend a couple of days really thinking about the character you want to play for the rest of the game; you are familar with the world and the story now, so really think about the character that you would like to see in this world.  Come up with some thoughts on how he ties into the world and even the story so far, and get back to me.

 

We Will change you out one last time with this character.  I do _not_  want to, but having gone through this X times,now for this one campaign, if you cannot settle on a character dor the rest of the game, I can structure a side-thread that lets us run your new character  independently of the group, or I can write you out.

 

I _mean_ it when I say I dont want to so either of those things,  but at this point, it may be better for you, me, everyone else, and the game at hand for youbtobsit this one out and wait foe a game that is more to your taste."

 

 

And yes; that is something of my standardized speech for problem players.  And yes, I have had players get back to me having decided to sit this one out and wait for the next one.  It is disappointing, but generally, it is a net win for everyone, including him.

 

And yes; I have permanently lost four or five players over the years as a result of this conversation,  but I can honestly say that I haven't lost any that I missed having at the table. 

 

 

[Scott Ruggels]

As a GM I do try to be as flexible as I can. I would have been resistant for the player to change before, but after experiencing some problems  in some recent D&D games with a Character Mismatch to the campaign, and having the GM just suggest swapping out a character, and how the party could use "X"< I have stopped being resistant to people wanting to swap out characters. However swapping them out every two sessions might be a little much..l If anything, talk to the player and see iff you can get an idea about how or why they swap out characters?

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

I have a possible solution to the ever-swapping player.

 

I built a character that had like 20 multiforms, each one a different superhero.  Kind of like Dial H, or the Miracleman concept, where you swap into a "body suit" of some different character.  Except he had no control.  The GM selected or randomized a character and handed the character to me when I activated the multiform.  That would give the guy variety without being terribly disruptive.

[Steve]

I’m now kind of curious as to what sort of campaign this is. Superhero? Sci-Fi? Fantasy? Espionage? Palace intrigue?

[Jujitsuguy]

2 hours ago, Steve said:

I’m now kind of curious as to what sort of campaign this is. Superhero? Sci-Fi? Fantasy? Espionage? Palace intrigue?

Steve:

 

Funny you should ask...the genre is Blade Runner/Prometheus, with other similar genres mixed in, including existence of Mutants, Psionics, and Magic.  Imagine Blade Runner and Prometheus/Alien--which do exist in their same universe--and mix in a dash of ShadowPunk.  I have adapted a lot of movies/stories that are tightly linked and connected them together.

Example:

Besides the link between Blade Runner and Prometheus/Alien, most people don't realize that the movie "Soldier" with Kurt Russell is VERY strongly tied into the same universe.  If you go to the garbage planet where Sgt Todd 3465 was dropped off on to fight alongside the civilians against the baddies, you clearly see a police spinner from Blade Runner in the trash pile.  Also, the Bad guy, played by Jason Lee Scott (Caine 607), was actually a Replicant, believed to be Nexus 3, which replaced the Soldiers from the "Adam Project" which Sgt Todd 3465 was part of.

In addition, aside of canon or not, Predators are also part of this universe.

I managed to also tie in Westworld, as I found a reference between the two--however, I can't find it now--but also if you look at the Hosts on Westworld, they are very similar in structure to those in Prometheus/Alien.  I also found in a wiki that Yutani sued Weyland for the creation of Weylands first synthetic, David:

https://avp.fandom.com/wiki/Yutani_Corporation

So, they have synthetic flesh and bone, used to emulate the human body.

The game started with all at 165 CP / 40 Complications, which I call "Exceptional" level normals, above Competent normals which are 125 CP.  We are in Chapter 1 of 5, which they are on Delos Island, hunting down copies of Delores' pearl--if you have ever watched the HBO series of Westworld.

[Jujitsuguy]

Duke Bushido:
 

I am at my wits end and yes, I will have this as the last rendition; however, he has changed the character concept to something 180 from the original and current, which I had tied in a lot of things in the game.

Also, his replacement is super Munchkin, which even I as lacking in all Hero knowledge is waaaaay off of what the rules are.  I already double-checked this w/ two other players that all of us know this player from a while back.  Where this goes is that I will point out all infringements, where he made totally wrong assumptions with the character concept and my game, and how he needs to fix it to be able to game with us.
At this stage, if he gets upset and bails, easier on me.

Also, as he has changed this, I will make it more difficult for them to get what they need.  If he leaves, I will NPC his recent character to be able to play the game through if I have to.

[Cygnia]

Is this player a friend that you can talk to outside of the game or no?

[Jujitsuguy]

4 hours ago, Cygnia said:

Is this player a friend that you can talk to outside of the game or no?

Cygnia:

I have known and played in this individual's campaigns for over 5 years now...he is a friend, and outside of the game, not a bad person at all; however, any game conversations that he feels are not in his favor go south immediately...he has even shut down games because he disagreed with a player....I don't mean major fallout, but just because something he didn't like...

 

Whenever I try to discuss these things, he throws a fit and threatens to leave the game.  So, this is the final where I say, "Last change on your character and these are the things that are acceptable on the character."

 

If he leaves, he leaves, simple as that...the campaign can get no more harm to it whether he stays with this character or leaves.

[Cygnia]

Yeah, I'd say call his bluff and offer him the door then.

[Steve]

3 minutes ago, Jujitsuguy said:

Cygnia:

I have known and played in this individual's campaigns for over 5 years now...he is a friend, and outside of the game, not a bad person at all; however, any game conversations that he feels are not in his favor go south immediately...he has even shut down games because he disagreed with a player....I don't mean major fallout, but just because something he didn't like...

 

Whenever I try to discuss these things, he throws a fit and threatens to leave the game.  So, this is the final where I say, "Last change on your character and these are the things that are acceptable on the character."

 

If he leaves, he leaves, simple as that...the campaign can get no more harm to it whether he stays with this character or leaves.

Hmmm. I get the impression of a control freak, my way or the highway, personality in this description. Throwing fits during conversations is not a sign of maturity, and I’m actually now thinking he is trying to take control of your campaign with his actions. You let him change characters once already, which caused you to retool some aspects of the campaign and now you’ll need to do it again.

 

Frankly, he does not sound like someone happy being a player, since your description is of him makes it sound like he was only GM-ing in prior play sessions. Give him one more chance if you want, but be prepared to let him walk away.

[Jujitsuguy]

All:

 

I appreciate the observations, feedback, and advice on this subject.  I just sent him a list of questions for the character, indicating this is the last rendition we will do in this game...I also am pointing out the fact I put ina lot of energy to "fit" him into this campaign and now all of that work is by the wayside, although it was my choice to do so.

So, we'll see where it goes and I will update this post to reflect that.

 

Cheers...

 

Jujitsuguy

[Jujitsuguy]

All:

 

O managed to respectfully give my observations and indicate it would greatly change the campaign.

 

The player caved and indicated no changes…they will play the same character.

 

Cygnia:  Good call to call out their bluff…it worked.

 

Thanks all…

[Duke Bushido]

15 hours ago, Jujitsuguy said:

Duke Bushido:
 

I am at my wits end and yes, I will have this as the last rendition; however, he has changed the character concept to something 180 from the original and current, which I had tied in a lot of things in the game.

 

Then be honest with him: firmly, but eithout malice and definitely,with the chance to work with you on the revision or try again, tell him that this character does not work for the story or the challenges at hand.  If he replies that this xharacter was specifically built for those challenges, explain to him that this is the problem:  he won't be challenged. 

 

 

15 hours ago, Jujitsuguy said:

Also, his replacement is super Munchkin,

 

Sorry; I couldn't hear you over the massive chorus of 'saw that coming!" that is coming up,from every person following this thread!  I will have to go back and re-read that when the crowd dies down a bit; bear with me a moment....

 

 

 

but yeah: saw that coming.  Seems to go hand-in-hand with this type of player.     

 

 

 

 

 

15 hours ago, Jujitsuguy said:

At this stage, if he gets upset and bails, easier on me

 

Take a little dramatic license in moments like this and remember Ivan Drago (man, I hope you are okd enough to appreciate that. Ha! ) 

 

 

(It was aomethinf like that, anyway. 

 

🙄

 

 

 

 

 

15 hours ago, Jujitsuguy said:

 I will NPC his recent character to be able to play the game through if I have to.

 

What we used to call "a PC enning."  My most spectacular problem player was a guy named,Davien, back in the late 80s/ early,90s.  He was so awful that over the years, I have used him as somrthing of an amalgam of various bad players who onky played a few times, just because if there was a way to make the rest of the pkayers (or the GM) miserable, Davien disnt just know what it was; he would _insist_ on it.

 

Davien has been the recipient of more than one PC Enning:

 

"You know what, Davien?  Just cool it.  Just go outside, smoke, get a drink, whatever.  Just get away from this table for about half an hour or so.  Vandy will N your PC for you."

 

Or "if you can't knock it off, you will sit there and watch while I En your PC under a carriage...."

 

(Do not that this is _not_ normal nor remotely acceptable GM behaviot in most circumstances, but you just have to aopreciate that Davien was his own sort of special circumstance.

 

 

 

 

5 hours ago, Jujitsuguy said:

 however, any game conversations that he feels are not in his favor go south immediately...he has even shut down games because he disagreed with a player....I don't mean major fallout, but just because something he didn't like...

 

Yep.  Rhat's a Davien trait, too- the real one; not the amalgam.   Sadly, my brother J has a touch of this himself (the older so; not the younger J or the youngest J).  We refer to it as "holding himself hostage."  Also called "the Black Bart Maneuver" in honor of Clevon Little's stellar performance doong just that very thing.   

 

 

 

 

 

5 hours ago, Jujitsuguy said:

 

Whenever I try to discuss these things, he throws a fit and threatens to leave the game.  So, this is the final where I say, "Last change on your character and these are the things that are acceptable on the character."

 

If he leaves, he leaves, simple as that...the campaign can get no more harm to it whether he stays with this character or leaves.

 Bingo.   You are the GM.  You have both the responsibility to _all_ players to do what you can to orovide an entertsining experience, and a right to have one yourself, too.

[SCUBA Hero]

16 hours ago, Jujitsuguy said:

I am at my wits end and yes, I will have this as the last rendition; however, he has changed the character concept to something 180 from the original and current, which I had tied in a lot of things in the game.

 

Drop the player.  Not worth it.

[tkdguy]

2 hours ago, SCUBA Hero said:

 

Drop the player.  Not worth it.

 

I agree with that. He sounds like he's ruining the fun for everyone else. He conceded now, but if he acts up again, give him the boot. I know you said he's a friend, but is he showing any friendship with that kind of behavior?

[Duke Bushido]

Everything in me agrees with you guys, but having already acquiesced, more than once, it seems, I would be willing to go _once_ more, with the talk mentioned above.

Though ir seems he has, at least for the moment, gotten the issue on a string, so anythinf else we add now probably isn't going to help him much this go around.

 

Still, I caution the need to go ahead and make peace with the idea that you may have to En his PC until you can discretely slide him out od the plot.   

 

 

 

 

[Jujitsuguy]

Just as a closure on this thread....after I presented him w/ my proof his character is not only illegal, but messes up the campaign, he chose to stick with the character he settled on when we started the game.

I need to hire guys in the towns where my players live....so in case they pull shit like this, I give Bruno, Jimmy, etc., a call and he goes over with the "Whack" stick to readjust their shit and get them with the program.

Hmmm....I think I might just have a niche in that market...rent out RPG thugs that adjust remote/online players who don't conform to game rules....  😉

[HeroGM]

Little late but my 2¢.

 

What I'm getting he's doing sounds wrong. It's disruptive.

 

Now have I allowed characters to alter in game with a Phoenix or Hawkeye/Ronin type deal, yes. Maybe the character is weak or doesn't fit the game the way the player thought. Same points, just alter a bit here and there.