Clerical magic

[Mr. R]

After some thought I decided I wanted some type of clerical/divine magic.  And not wanting to re invent the wheel, I thought the Metier style that I am using for Arcane magic could serve as a framework for Divine magic.  SO:

 

Mandatory is RSR at (-1/2) and Must serve deity's plans (-1/2)

 

Required Advantages: Difficult to Dispel x4 (+1/2)

Required Limitations:  Incantations (-1/4), Gestures (-1/4)

Restricted Advantages: IPE (+1/4), Red. End (+1/4)

Restricted Limitations: Side Effects (-1/4), Reduced By Range (-1/4)

 

All Clerics will have a Mana Pool (End Batt w/ Rec) that will power all spells.  Out of power means that god's done working with you for the day.  Also for no points the spells must fit thematically to the deity in question.  So -

Goddess of Earth: Mistress of Agriculture. Lady of Seasons. Birth, death and milestones. Queen of the Forest/Jungle. The herbalist / poisoner.

 

Will have a different EB than 

 

Fire Lord  Heat, chaos, Uncontrolled fire,

 

 

OK poke holes and suggest improvements!

[Tjack]

  It’s very late and I read the title of your thread as Clerical Magic as in a magical Administrative Assistant or Office Manager.  Well, if you can have a Kitchen Witch why not an Office Witch?🧙‍♀️

[assault]

58 minutes ago, Tjack said:

  It’s very late and I read the title of your thread as Clerical Magic as in a magical Administrative Assistant or Office Manager.  Well, if you can have a Kitchen Witch why not an Office Witch?🧙‍♀️

 

Probably related to early state formation and associated record keeping. Involves writing, numbers and symbol manipulation. Related to astrology, which involves observing and recording the movements of heavenly bodies, and the seasons.

A stereotypical clerical magician might be a scribe.

[DShomshak]

16 hours ago, Mr. R said:

Goddess of Earth: Mistress of Agriculture. Lady of Seasons. Birth, death and milestones. Queen of the Forest/Jungle. The herbalist / poisoner.

 

Will have a different EB than 

 

Fire Lord  Heat, chaos, Uncontrolled fire,

 

OK poke holes and suggest improvements!

But you still assume they will both have an Energy Blast.

 

"Must serve deity's plans" sounds like a recipe for endless arguments with players. Perhaps you mean "Must fit within deity's portfolio of interests and influences," in the manner of D&D domains"? (I assume there's a VPP involved.)

 

Assault's comment makes me think of the magic of Egyptian lector-priests, which was freaky cool but a bit outside Generic Fantasy Adventurer's Magic.

 

Dean Shomshak

[assault]

1 hour ago, DShomshak said:

Assault's comment makes me think of the magic of Egyptian lector-priests, which was freaky cool but a bit outside Generic Fantasy Adventurer's Magic.

 

Generic Fantasy Adventurer's Magic is why I avoided Fantasy Hero for decades.

It seemed like a waste of Hero's capabilities, while remaining painfully vanilla. Lots of work too, unless you rely on published spells.

[Mr. R]

4 hours ago, DShomshak said:

But you still assume they will both have an Energy Blast.

 

"Must serve deity's plans" sounds like a recipe for endless arguments with players. Perhaps you mean "Must fit within deity's portfolio of interests and influences," in the manner of D&D domains"? (I assume there's a VPP involved.)

 

Assault's comment makes me think of the magic of Egyptian lector-priests, which was freaky cool but a bit outside Generic Fantasy Adventurer's Magic.

 

Dean Shomshak

 

 

I like the suggestion and was planning a MP (I am not going with the idea that my players are Hero System savvy, so Keep It Short and Simple [KISS])

[Ockham's Spoon]

So why is Side Effects a restricted Limitation?  If the cleric doesn't show sufficient faith to cast a spell, isn't penance justified?  It might depend on the specific deity though; some would be more punitive, some more compassionate.

 

You have RSR as a required limitation.  What Characteristic is it based on?  I would suggest making it PRE.  Priests need to be charismatic to spread their religion.  They don't have to be firebrand preachers, they could be the strong, silent type; quiet and confident.  But a priest must be inspiring, and nothing is as inspiring as someone who is confident in their faith.  Also, if spells are granted by your deity, the better you are at praying and persuasion (a PRE skill) the more likely you are to be granted your spells.  Finally, one popular method in the Hero System for 'turning' undead is through PRE Attacks, so PRE would be a natural characteristic for the cleric to buy up.

[Mr. R]

On 5/9/2022 at 10:57 AM, Ockham's Spoon said:

So why is Side Effects a restricted Limitation?  If the cleric doesn't show sufficient faith to cast a spell, isn't penance justified?  It might depend on the specific deity though; some would be more punitive, some more compassionate.

 

You have RSR as a required limitation.  What Characteristic is it based on?  I would suggest making it PRE.  Priests need to be charismatic to spread their religion.  They don't have to be firebrand preachers, they could be the strong, silent type; quiet and confident.  But a priest must be inspiring, and nothing is as inspiring as someone who is confident in their faith.  Also, if spells are granted by your deity, the better you are at praying and persuasion (a PRE skill) the more likely you are to be granted your spells.  Finally, one popular method in the Hero System for 'turning' undead is through PRE Attacks, so PRE would be a natural characteristic for the cleric to buy up.

 

 

Either that or Ego.  Self confident and sure of themselves and with the will power to resist going off track!

[Steve]

For the skill roll, I like the idea of using the god as a Contact. Narosia used this and had rules for casting, and I like the logic of it. It gives a different feel than an INT or EGO-based skill roll. Using a skill roll feels more like a wizard thing, and a Contact feels more like a cleric.

[Mr. R]

11 hours ago, Steve said:

For the skill roll, I like the idea of using the god as a Contact. Narosia used this and had rules for casting, and I like the logic of it. It gives a different feel than an INT or EGO-based skill roll. Using a skill roll feels more like a wizard thing, and a Contact feels more like a cleric.

OHHHHH!   I like!

[Mr. R]

On 5/13/2022 at 10:26 AM, Steve said:

For the skill roll, I like the idea of using the god as a Contact. Narosia used this and had rules for casting, and I like the logic of it. It gives a different feel than an INT or EGO-based skill roll. Using a skill roll feels more like a wizard thing, and a Contact feels more like a cleric.

 

I am curious though.  Is that a straight roll (IE Contact at 14-) or is it modified ( IE Contact 14- with a -1/ 10 points it the spell) or do you do a third alternative?

[Steve]

22 minutes ago, Mr. R said:

 

I am curious though.  Is that a straight roll (IE Contact at 14-) or is it modified ( IE Contact 14- with a -1/ 10 points it the spell) or do you do a third alternative?

I believe it followed the normal rules for Active Points. I don’t have my book in front of me right now.

[assault]

Interesting. I don't have Narosia, but I would probably make Concentration a mandatory limitation, but not Gestures or Incantations.

Prayer or meditation doesn't have to be overt, but does require a certain attention to the spiritual world, rather than the physical. I can think of edge cases, naturally.

[Scott Ruggels]

On 5/16/2022 at 4:23 PM, assault said:

Interesting. I don't have Narosia, but I would probably make Concentration a mandatory limitation, but not Gestures or Incantations.

Prayer or meditation doesn't have to be overt, but does require a certain attention to the spiritual world, rather than the physical. I can think of edge cases, naturally.

 

"The Lord moves in mysterious ways."  Allowing the Magic to be subtle, like either indirect (Comes from the God's will, through his hands, not mine.), or Invisible/ Inaudible power effect would give it a much different flavor than Sorceror Artillery of most spells.

[DShomshak]

Scott brings up a core issue. What does Clerical Magic do? Or not do? How does it operate? What does it look like?

 

I suggest answering those questions first. Then work out how to represent the results (or something close) in Hero System.

 

As usual, I will recommend Lois McMaster Bujold's "World of the Five Gods" for its examples of supernatural power that is very much not Generic Fantasy Adventurer Magic. A shaman, a sorcerer, and a saint do quite different things.

 

Dean Shomshak

[Scott Ruggels]

It would probably be a good idea to borrow a magic system from a literary source (like Bujold or Kathrine Kurtz), and maybe less something from a game.  D&D borrowed from Jack Vance. I am sure someone is going to borrow from Brandon Sanderson sooner or later.

[assault]

It would have to be a source that goes into a bit of detail, but is still playable. Earthsea magic, for example, has all that messy stuff with Names.

That makes the system fuzzy, but fuzziness is one of the things that makes magic seem magical. Defining everything in fine mechanical detail works against that - but fuzzy magic wastes time during actual play.

 

The biggest problem, of course, is that RPG magic tends to be heavily combat oriented.

"I'm a Fire Wizard!"
"Can you cook a steak?"
"No, but I can blow up a cow."

[unclevlad]

World of the Five Gods is awesome reading.  The core interaction...the funeral rites showing which god received the soul...is the best I've ever seen.  The gods are real, the gods DO watch and care...but they don't interfere much at all.  But the people get one of the most fundamental concerns...what happens after death...answered, and the belief in the gods gets reinforced.

 

But the magic system is...tricky.  Not easy to work with.  

[Mr. R]

11 hours ago, Scott Ruggels said:

 

"The Lord moves in mysterious ways."  Allowing the Magic to be subtle, like either indirect (Comes from the God's will, through his hands, not mine.), or Invisible/ Inaudible power effect would give it a much different flavor than Sorceror Artillery of most spells.

 

I like that idea!

 

But I don't want it to get too expensive to do even to smallest effect  (though that is what limitations are for!)

[Scott Ruggels]

14 hours ago, Mr. R said:

 

I like that idea!

 

But I don't want it to get too expensive to do even to smallest effect  (though that is what limitations are for!)

Exactly. I would see Clerical (Ecclesiastical?) Magic, being very situation specific, and oriented the opposite of combat magic. ( but allowing buffs or debuffs as long as they are maintained. ) I can see a stack of limitations, like:

 

concentration

multiple phases/ turns to cast. 

must be cast within defined borders within sacred/ holy ground. 
Requires the willing donation of energy of a number of willing followers. must have a minimum of five willing followers (with Hero doubling Doubling per number of followers to add points), to provide soul energy (through ritual, prayer or END, depending on the flavor. This would allow a church full of parishioners, or a cave full of cultists to bank points for a spell). 
Requires the wear of a holy symbol. 
Requires music (singing, chanting or instrumental accompaniment counts)

Requires consumable materials (smoldering sage branch, product of the harvest, animal sacrifice, blood sacrifice, human sacrifice)

Items to be enchanted must be pure/clean examples. 
conversely Enchanted items can be made from items from notable sacrifice, great heroism, or touched by the diety, or his divine representatives. 
Requires renewal, time period and method of renewal dictated by theology. 
requires use of enchanted object. 
 

So you can with the limitations, change the flavor of the magic quite profoundly with the choice of limitation. But to check the limitations generally, does the limitation work for both a church and a cult in a cave? Feel free to stack limitations, but using all at once would not be required.  However unlike Wizardry or Sorcery, the shap of the Clerical spells is

defined by the theology and the GM, eschewing player input, as

abjuring “experimentation” of that system, because that becomes heresy. Magic for them is a tool only and a way to praise and assist their gods mission, and not art, or a venue for self expression. This is how you approach magic so it is not the usual Generic Adventurer’s Fantasy Magic.  It also pays for the indirect or invisibility which to me replaced the need for “fuzziness “, in the magic. More on why, later. 

 

 

[Mr. R]

Remember this is for a MP not a VPP.  I want to keep this simple as I cannot be sure that my players will have any system familiarity or mastery of Hero System.  Plug and Play is my goal.

 

So my next post will be what kind of powers would each deity give out!

[Mr. R]

So modified

 

Mandatory is Contact Roll at (-1/2) and Must fit within deity's portfolio of interests and influences, (-1/2)

 

Required Advantages: Indirect (+1/2),  IPE (+1/2)

Required Limitations:  Concentration (-1/2), Extra Time (-1/2)

Restricted Advantages:  Red. End (+1/4), SUGGESTION PLEASE

Restricted Limitations: Side Effects (-1/4), Reduced By Range (-1/4)

 

As well they have to purchase and END Batt with a restricted REC .

 

This makes it so a 30 point MP and five prayers will cost 

 

20 + 2 + 2+ 2 + 2 + 2 =30

Contact at 14- = 6

End Batt = 12 (points of starting character/10 so 125/10)

Total = 48

[Steve]

Holy items could also act as bonuses to the Contact roll through a focus.

 

This allows some tailoring for the different deities. A forest god’s most basic holy item might just use a bit of normal carved wood that can replaced as needed by the Druid/priest, but one made from an ancient tree within a faerie mound and then blessed by a dryad might give the biggest bonus.

 

The first symbol might be a mere +1 or +2, whereas the other would give a far higher bonus. Having a symbol makes it more likely you will be noticed by the Contact, but you can still cast without it.

 

You could also have holy items that all members of a pantheon will notice.

[Scott Ruggels]

9 hours ago, Mr. R said:

Remember this is for a MP not a VPP.  I want to keep this simple as I cannot be sure that my players will have any system familiarity or mastery of Hero System.  Plug and Play is my goal.

 

So my next post will be what kind of powers would each deity give out!

How is a power framework simple? What would be wrong about buying the spells out right? It would be simpler on the page.  The limit on spell acquisition would be XP, and END. 

[Mr. R]

9 hours ago, Scott Ruggels said:

How is a power framework simple? What would be wrong about buying the spells out right? It would be simpler on the page.  The limit on spell acquisition would be XP, and END. 

Possibly.  Depends on the spells and their costs!