Why the V’hanian Empire Makes the Champions Setting Cosmic Horror

[AlgaeNymph]

My claim in brief: V’han’s presence in the Champions Universe is so large that her metaptot is the only one that matters, and all you can do is serve or oppose her.  While a worthy campaign idea, it essentially writes the setting into a corner.

 

That said, I hope you’ll forgive me for belaboring the point but I feel I need to set up some explanation first so as to prevent confusion.  I shouldn’t assume people know as much as I do on the topic.

 

For those unfamiliar with the subject, cosmic horror is where the universe is dominated by a vast power that’s at-best indifferent and not at all friendly.  It spawned by new discoveries in astrophysics, growing secular humanism, and Anglo entitlement feeling threatened.  Earth is insignificant, there is no God, and we are not the chosen ones.  

 

To modern-minded gamers, the genre is now high-stakes pest control, often with an anxiety-laden narrative I never find convincing.  Even squishy mortals can adapt to vast, uncontrollable forces; it’s called “disaster management.”  And on the micro level the genre’s just chasing amateur sleuths with what are essentially scaly, tentacled bears.  Avoid, or kill, or parley: anything besides helpless angst.  This becomes exacerbated with superpowered individuals.  For anything as simple as a maltheistic being the answer would be to simply punch out Cthulhu.

 

Not so Istvatha V’han.

 

For those unfamiliar with the setting (which I find common in any gaming community), Istvatha V’han is a pan-dimensional conqueror comparable to the Achaemenid Persians (which will be pertinently analogous later).  Her politics can be crudely described as “NPR with teeth.”  Her three main goals are cultural preservation, anti-corruption, and improved living standards — at gunpoint, if need be.  Her management of rebels is comparable to General Sherman’s, and is the main point of contention.  I always find myself questioning why people would rebel, suspecting many are regressives who wrap themselves in Freedom™ much as myth has the Spartans did.  But going into detail there is its own thread (and I have no desire to indulge whataboutism fringe cases until I’m well-read enough to), and the point is that V’han, like the Persians, would allow integrated polities essential autonomy.

 

And it’s here I’ll finally get to the point.

 

V’han debuted in Conquerors, Killers, and Crooks, and was even right on the cover.  The year was 2002 when we still believed in American Exceptionalism and Whig History.  She was meant as a moral dilemma villain, with the aforementioned benefits verses a nebulous-defined Freedom™.  (You can just hear the eagle screech.)  Nowadays, we see that her rule would grant the Four Freedoms, the only losers being bigots and conmen, who today seem to shout the most about “Freedom.”  Worth noting is how in official Champions Universe canon, at least in 5th Edition (written 2004), that the Champions drove her off for a thousand years in 2017, when the world probably really wanted her around.  I wonder how Our Heroes accepted thanks from the POTUS.  Or how much they felt like heroes, particularly come 2022 when the magic went away.

 

My point is that today, V’han is as much of a dilemma as the Trolley Problem, where only the most insane ditherers (like philosophers) would choose inaction to keep their hands clean.  The only rational choices are to either pull the lever and sacrifice one for the many, or attempt a third option and be complicit in the deaths of many because the situation’s set up to be no-win for four-colored heroics.

 

Which finally gets me to the cosmic horror, and I thank you for being patient so far with my verbiage.  (And won’t blame you if you just scrolled down.)  Suppose you’re a superhero who’s less into face punching mentally ill bankrollers and more into systematic reform.  Fighting corruption!  Scientific utopianism!  Magitech revolutions!  Great campaign ideas!  : D

 

Except…it’s already been done for you.  All of that is one dimensional message away.  Sure, you’ll be well-rewarded for your work, and an ideal job, but it’s just not the same.  You’re not the reformer, you’re just working for her.  The campaign’s no longer about you.

 

Or you could fight the Empire.  No doubt amidst the violent aftermath you brought about there’ll need to be someone who’ll rebuild society.  Someone like you.

[Jhamin]

1 hour ago, AlgaeNymph said:

The year was 2002 when we still believed in American Exceptionalism and Whig History.  She was meant as a moral dilemma villain, with the aforementioned benefits verses a nebulous-defined Freedom™.  (You can just hear the eagle screech.)  Nowadays, we see that her rule would grant the Four Freedoms, the only losers being bigots and conmen, who today seem to shout the most about “Freedom.”  Worth noting is how in official Champions Universe canon, at least in 5th Edition (written 2004), that the Champions drove her off for a thousand years in 2017, when the world probably really wanted her around.  I wonder how Our Heroes accepted thanks from the POTUS.  Or how much they felt like heroes, particularly come 2022 when the magic went away.

 

First off I think it's cute you think "we" ever believed in American Exceptionalism or Whig History.  Everyone is 20 once and middle-aged eventually.  I remember the early 2000s as when my country lost it's collective mind after being attacked, invaded Iraq... because, openly setup a surveillance state, and told everyone to keep shopping lest the terrorists win.  Don't presume that no one caught the hypocrisy or that everyone expected Afghanistan to go well.  Lots of folks doubted we would do any better than any of the other Great Powers that were going to "fix" them.

Thing of it is, I had a lot of discussions with my elders about how this was in no way new.  Idealism breaks down once the world steadfastly refuses to be horrified by what horrifies you, the same crimes keep getting committed, and no one goes to jail.

 

We had a discussion on this forum a couple years ago that overlapped this: "Can Heroes be proactive?"  The discussion was about if it was possible for heros to just go out and root out the things that were bad instead of just waiting for crime to happen & reacting too it.   I remember that discussion vividly because for me it happened against the backdrop of the George Floyd Riots.  I remember replying to that thread while the Daunte Wright protests were happening.  The thing we kept coming back too was: What were the heroes going to do to "make it right"?  Beat up the protesters?  Beat up the "bad" cops?  (how could they tell which ones those were?, all of them?).  Does punishing crime just hold up corrupt systems?  Does tearing down those systems create anarchy?  Basically, Superheroics breaks down when presented with an even cursory examination of the actual complexity of the world.  Batman & Superman have the advantage of an author who makes sure their heroics work in the context of their worlds and they never beat the crap out of an innocent person.

 

A big part of the appeal of 4 color comics is that there are good guys and bad guys and you don't really need to worry about if General Zod has a point.  Our actual world never gives us that kind of clarity.

 

So, to return to your query: Is Istvatha V'han our lord and savior?  Maybe? The Book of the Empress talks big about how she likes to make everyone happy so they they don't force her to obliterate them, but lets assume she actually makes everyone happy.  How?  The books talks about improving technology but also keeping out of local moral and religious affairs.  So abortion, human rights, religious freedom, etc would explicitly be exactly the same under her regime.  I'm sure food and security would solve a lot of the problems of the world but how are they given?  Airdrop?  Welfare State?  The book doesn't say. 

 

Are we better off under the Empress?  I imagine the TVs are higher-res, the internet is faster, and no one is hungry... but then what?  Is that all there is?  Do we all get more meaningful jobs?  Or are a bunch of us still going to be manning the drive through for not enough money?  Is there a new way to be that makes us all better people or do the taxes just go somewhere else and our lives are basically the same?  Under the current system in much of the world there is at least a fiction that we can find ways to better our positions in life.  Under the Empress is our cage just gilded to a higher degree but the choices are no different?

[Lord Liaden]

AlgaeNymph, I have to dispute your assertion that the V'hanian Empire is cosmic horror as you define it. First of all, Istvatha V'han is not indifferent or unfriendly. She's very much the opposite of indifferent, actively campaigning to subjugate every new dimension her explorers discover; and her intention is benevolent, to rule for the betterment of all, because she believes herself best qualified to do so.

 

But unlike cosmic horror, in which humans are small and helpless in the face of vast forces beyond our comprehension, the V'hanian Empire is in the tradition of comics, a threat which superheroes are equipped to fight. And they can fight it because the whole thing is built around and held together by Istvatha herself. She is ageless, but not immortal; she is very capable, and very well protected, but not omnipotent. She could be captured, or killed, or otherwise neutralized, and with her gone her Empire would almost certainly fragment. She herself has expressed that concern.

 

If you actually did want to deal with cosmic horror, the Champions Universe has Tyrannon the Conqueror. It has the Dragon. It has the Kings of Edom, and the Solipsist. They're all out there in the wider Multiverse, and they are truly alien and uncaring forces of nature that are almost impossible to destroy; but again in the comic-book tradition, there are built-in ways to oppose them, defeat them, contain them, if you have the skill and genius, the power, and the courage, that superheroes possess.

 

The essence of horror is helplessness. Superheroes are rarely helpless -- they were created "to fight the battles that we never could."

[AlgaeNymph]

On 5/15/2022 at 4:22 PM, Jhamin said:

Is Istvatha V'han our lord and savior?  Maybe?

And that's the problem: I want to be the lord and savior, and I suspect a lot of other players do as well.

 

On 5/15/2022 at 7:16 PM, Lord Liaden said:

The essence of horror is helplessness. Superheroes are rarely helpless -- they were created "to fight the battles that we never could."

You are correct, at least regarding the conventional understanding of cosmic horror.  But remember that the overwhelming presence is scarier when it's benevolent, and especially when it's a hero's most primal fear: not being the hero.  Or perhaps a player's most primal fear: not being important.

 

And yes, PCs can kill V'han.  She will die violently by sheer virtue of not aging; even without assassins there's always probability catching up.  But while the works of a benevolent despot quickly crumble after their death, V'han did set up an ideologically loyal and properly technocratic administration.

 

On 5/15/2022 at 7:16 PM, Lord Liaden said:

I have to dispute your assertion that the V'hanian Empire is cosmic horror as you define it.

Or perhaps, to paraphrase Twain, I used the second cousin of the proper term.  My brain works weird.  I hope I at least raised a good point.

[Lord Liaden]

2 hours ago, AlgaeNymph said:

 

You are correct, at least regarding the conventional understanding of cosmic horror.  But remember that the overwhelming presence is scarier when it's benevolent, and especially when it's a hero's most primal fear: not being the hero.  Or perhaps a player's most primal fear: not being important.

 

 

I'm coming up short trying to think of an example of an "overwhelming presence" that's benevolent being perceived as scary. If you have one I'd love to know it.

 

2 hours ago, AlgaeNymph said:

 

And yes, PCs can kill V'han.  She will die violently by sheer virtue of not aging; even without assassins there's always probability catching up.  But while the works of a benevolent despot quickly crumble after their death, V'han did set up an ideologically loyal and properly technocratic administration.

 

 

"Even though she’s immortal, she recognizes that sooner or later something’s going to kill her (be it a determined assassin, a cosmic catastrophe, or a tragic accident), and she wants her Empire and the benefits it provides to live on after her. The longer she sits on the V’hanian Throne the more this concerns her; she desperately wants to keep her Empire from being torn apart by ambitious underlings after she’s gone, but has no clear idea about how to prevent that from happening (aside from trying to appoint the most honorable qualified people she can find to important positions)." (Book of the Empress p.22)
 

2 hours ago, AlgaeNymph said:

Or perhaps, to paraphrase Twain, I used the second cousin of the proper term.  My brain works weird.  I hope I at least raised a good point.

 

Still mulling that.

[Steve]

Actually, a campaign set in the days after she is gone could be very interesting. If there is a struggle for power, PCs could become quite important, what with Tyrannon and other multiversal threats pressing on the borders of the empire and all the internal chaos that would be going on.

 

Yet, she is a time traveller. I can’t recall, do her powers render her always unique? Or might temporal echoes of her exist even after her supposed death?

[Lord Liaden]

16 minutes ago, Steve said:

Yet, she is a time traveller. I can’t recall, do her powers render her always unique? Or might temporal echoes of her exist even after her supposed death?

 

One of V'han's defining qualities is that she's "multiversally unique." Neither she nor her followers have ever encountered an alternate version of herself.

 

Another quality is that she's sterile, so a dynasty born of her flesh isn't in the cards. She could always adopt, or maybe clone herself, but BOTE says neither option appeals to her.

[Hugh Neilson]

5 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

 

I'm coming up short trying to think of an example of an "overwhelming presence" that's benevolent being perceived as scary. If you have one I'd love to know it.

 

 

The expression "the fear of God" comes to mind...

 

She could certainly put some moral dilemmas into the game.  What if Earth wants to accept her rule?  What if, overall, Earth does, but some current leaders do not, clinging to personal power?  How much freedom does one sell for her benevolence?

 

In the source material, these characters generally prove to be less benevolent than they claim.

[Steve]

1 hour ago, Lord Liaden said:

 

One of V'han's defining qualities is that she's "multiversally unique." Neither she nor her followers have ever encountered an alternate version of herself.

 

Another quality is that she's sterile, so a dynasty born of her flesh isn't in the cards. She could always adopt, or maybe clone herself, but BOTE says neither option appeals to her.

Well, if something fatal happens to her, another time traveller loyal to her could try going back to an earlier point where she is still alive. Then things become interesting. However, even if that other time traveller warns her, it sounds like she wouldn’t be able to break free of her destined future death due to some kind of paradox lock built into her powers preventing her from splitting herself. If there can only ever be one of her, then maybe she can’t cross her own personal timeline either.

 

Her perfect society would likely rip apart quickly without her controlling it. That chaos would be a time for heroes.

1 hour ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

The expression "the fear of God" comes to mind...

 

She could certainly put some moral dilemmas into the game.  What if Earth wants to accept her rule?  What if, overall, Earth does, but some current leaders do not, clinging to personal power?  How much freedom does one sell for her benevolence?

 

In the source material, these characters generally prove to be less benevolent than they claim.

Oh, I’m sure there would be many who would welcome her with open arms.

[Lord Liaden]

1 hour ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

The expression "the fear of God" comes to mind...

 

 

I was waiting for someone to bring that one up.

 

That's Old Testament wrathful God. For the God of love that Jesus promulgated, believers go to great lengths insisting that God does not seek to inflict suffering.

[Lord Liaden]

Back in 1990, author and RPG designer Allen Varney contributed an adventure to the Fourth Edition Champions book, Champions in 3-D, titled, "Horror World." This remains the most brilliant and effective translation of Lovecraftian cosmic horror to the supers genre that I've ever seen, in large measure because the threat isn't something that can be defeated by brute force, hence even superheroes feel helpless. It was based on the premise of an alternate Earth in which the heroic pulp-era investigators fighting to prevent the manifestation on Earth of nightmarish elder horrors from beyond... failed.

 

With Hero Games' permission, Allen Varney put the entire text from his adventure on his personal website, under the title, ANOPHELES: Atrocities From Beyond . That webpage includes the adventure proper, stats for its NPCs and monsters, and 4E Power constructs to model Lovecraftian sanity-blasting effects. (Fair warning -- it's not for the faint-hearted. Seriously.)

[Hugh Neilson]

9 hours ago, Steve said:

Oh, I’m sure there would be many who would welcome her with open arms.

 

A better life for themselves and their children in exchange for accepting someone else in charge?  How much do they like their current leadership/rulers?  Can we have a worldwide vote on whether to join the Empire and accept the rule of the Empress for Life?

 

9 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

 

I was waiting for someone to bring that one up.

 

That's Old Testament wrathful God. For the God of love that Jesus promulgated, believers go to great lengths insisting that God does not seek to inflict suffering.

 

Two different views of the same overwhelming entity, both benevolent and scary?  Sounds similar to having two different views of V'han - which one is more accurate?

[Lord Liaden]

“Unlimited power is the ideal thing when it is in safe hands. The despotism of heaven is the one absolutely perfect government, and earthly despotism would be the absolute perfect earthly government if the conditions were the same; namely the despot the perfectest individual of the human race, and his lease of life perpetual; but as a perishable, perfect man must die and leave his despotism in the hands of an imperfect successor, an earthly despotism is not merely a bad form of government, it is the worst form that is possible.”
― Mark Twain, A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court

[Pariah]

16 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

The expression "the fear of God" comes to mind...

 

14 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

I was waiting for someone to bring that one up.

 

That's Old Testament wrathful God. For the God of love that Jesus promulgated, believers go to great lengths insisting that God does not seek to inflict suffering.

 

Even in the New Testament, when an Agent of God (e.g., an angel) appears, in almost every case the first words out of its mouth are "Fear not."

[DShomshak]

I haven't read Book of the Empress, but this passage in CV1 imight be worth remembering:

 

"Istvatha V'han carries herself with a regal grace at most times, but her facade sometimes cracks when her followers let her down, or someone challenges or insults her. She doesn't tolerate frustration well, and if sufficiently angered may lash out in a fit of destructiveness that obliterates entire planets." (CV1, p. 60)

 

I think a reasonable person, even seeing all the benefits that Istvatha V'han's rule brings most of the time, might balk at having the survival of their entire world in the hands of an absolute monarch with no curb on her temper tantrums.

 

Though for some people, that erratic temper may enhance their reverence.

 

Dean Shomshak

[Steve]

14 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

 

I was waiting for someone to bring that one up.

 

That's Old Testament wrathful God. For the God of love that Jesus promulgated, believers go to great lengths insisting that God does not seek to inflict suffering.

That’s not quite accurate. God will chasten even His most devout and pious followers, which can involve suffering, but it’s to try and instill greater humility and holiness within them. People also often get into trouble all on their own due to their own poor choices and then blame God for their problems.

[Steve]

4 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

“Unlimited power is the ideal thing when it is in safe hands. The despotism of heaven is the one absolutely perfect government, and earthly despotism would be the absolute perfect earthly government if the conditions were the same; namely the despot the perfectest individual of the human race, and his lease of life perpetual; but as a perishable, perfect man must die and leave his despotism in the hands of an imperfect successor, an earthly despotism is not merely a bad form of government, it is the worst form that is possible.”
― Mark Twain, A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court

 

9 minutes ago, DShomshak said:

I haven't read Book of the Empress, but this passage in CV1 imight be worth remembering:

 

"Istvatha V'han carries herself with a regal grace at most times, but her facade sometimes cracks when her followers let her down, or someone challenges or insults her. She doesn't tolerate frustration well, and if sufficiently angered may lash out in a fit of destructiveness that obliterates entire planets." (CV1, p. 60)

 

I think a reasonable person, even seeing all the benefits that Istvatha V'han's rule brings most of the time, might balk at having the survival of their entire world in the hands of an absolute monarch with no curb on her temper tantrums.

 

Though for some people, that erratic temper may enhance their reverence.

 

Dean Shomshak

She is an absolute despot, and she does not tolerate any challenges to her rule.

 

Any. Challenges. At. All.

 

She has destroyed entire worlds full of people out of frustration. That’s pretty scary, and it puts a serious damper on this whole benevolent ruler facade she wears. She is only benevolent as long as you toe the line and obey.

[Lord Liaden]

1 hour ago, Pariah said:

 

 

Even in the New Testament, when an Agent of God (e.g., an angel) appears, in almost every case the first words out of its mouth are "Fear not."

 

Yeah, because the Biblical descriptions of angels are freakin' terrifying.

 

 

[Pariah]

1 minute ago, Lord Liaden said:

 

Yeah, because the Biblical descriptions of angels are freakin' terrifying.

 

 

 

Precisely my point. And even if the descriptions aren't literally accurate (and I personally believe they're probably metaphors for something the minds of the revelators didn't have the capacity to process), you've got to figure that Messengers from God are probably walking/flying around with PRE scores in the upper two-digit to low three-digit range.

[bluesguy]

5 hours ago, Pariah said:

 

 

Even in the New Testament, when an Agent of God (e.g., an angel) appears, in almost every case the first words out of its mouth are "Fear not."

The idea of Holy is that God's "otherness" is so pure and otherworldly causes mortals to be overwhelmed leading to the feelings of fear.  The disciple Peter has a fear reaction to Jesus at one point in the New Testament (Luke 5:1-9).

 

I suspect that people meet Istvatha V'han have a similar reaction because she is so otherworldliness (lives in a multiverse and can time travel).

[Steve]

She’s kind of a cross between a Princess of Amber and a Time Lord, so yeah, alien.

[Steve]

1 hour ago, bluesguy said:

The idea of Holy is that God's "otherness" is so pure and otherworldly causes mortals to be overwhelmed leading to the feelings of fear.  The disciple Peter has a fear reaction to Jesus at one point in the New Testament (Luke 5:1-9).

While I get what you’re saying about angels appearing in all their glory and majesty, that’s not what happened here.

Verse 5 is more about Peter expressing his respect for the Lord (who had been teaching nearby for a while) than fear of Him and verse 8 is Peter declaring shame at his own sinfulness after realizing who Jesus was.
 

There’s not really fear involved in this encounter, the one where Peter pulled in so many fish after putting in his nets again after already having an unsuccessful night fishing, and he was amazed that his nets were breaking and he almost sank his boat.

[Scott Ruggels]

Is this getting a bit too close to RL religions?

[bluesguy]

17 hours ago, Scott Ruggels said:

Is this getting a bit too close to RL religions?

Yep.  And also why I won't add anymore to that part of the topic.

[AlgaeNymph]

leaves thread a while due to shifting interests (and fearing angry mob)

 

remembers thread and gives it a check...

 

: O

 

I...have a talent for hitting nerves without trying, don't I?  ^_^:  sorry