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RAW Question (5E and 6E) HA adds to MA?


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Millenium City, p.16, Shadowboxer.

 

He has an "Energy Punch", HA +8d6 (verses ED).

Under RAW for 5E, does that add to his Boxing MA Maneuvers?  Does that change under 6E?

 

Follow-up question:  Again under RAW, does the Energy Punch change the entire attack to verses ED?

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RAW says it's all energy.  If you split it into physical and energy components, then...do you apply both PD and ED???  That obviously destroys the attack.

 

In 6E, everything adds up.  So if it's 4d6 from STR...it's 12d6.  If there's extra damage from MA DCs or maneuvers, add them as well.

 

In 5E, the material you want is on page 405.  The base rule is you can't do more than double the base damage...but...with HAs, the base damage is treated as STR + HA.  (This is NOT the case with killing attacks.)  There's also the side note about Ninja Hero, allowing martial stuff being counted in the base because non super martial artists rarely have serious STR.

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30 minutes ago, HeroGM said:

Ah but IIRC the "can't do more than double" is for Heroic level games, not Super-heroic.

 

That's why you need to look at p. 405.  You're correct...*for normal damage*.  And for *weapons*.  The HA attack doesn't sound like a weapon.  See Exceptions.

 

The 5E rules are...overly convoluted, IMO.  Feels like a full-page flow chart is needed to figure it out.

 

Utensil:  to what point?  The rules already say, tack on an Energy HA and it's an energy attack.  Slap into a 2-3 slot MP;  long as they're all HAs, you can slap a custom MP Only modifier.  (This approach means, it doesn't affect the slots, because the HA limitation is handled in an odd manner.)  You don't increase the END cost;  you don't have to answer questions like, how does this impact the damage cap, how does this impact the actual dice of damage when something else gets applied?  Take the easy route. :)  

 

A *rude* stunt in 6E is to define a VPP that is 5 base, 6 Control Cost.  Zero phase, no skill roll.  HAs/HKAs only...I'm calling that a -1.  10 points.  That lets you build a 1d6 versus PD or ED (with any SFX desired), 1/2 d6 AVAD or NND (against Rare defenses), or 1 pip NND, Does Body, versus a rare defense.  Yeah, there's only a few STOP!!! signs about that, but hey..... :)

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48 minutes ago, unclevlad said:

 

That's why you need to look at p. 405.  You're correct...*for normal damage*.  And for *weapons*.  The HA attack doesn't sound like a weapon.  See Exceptions.

 

The 5E rules are...overly convoluted, IMO.  Feels like a full-page flow chart is needed to figure it out.

 

Utensil:  to what point?  The rules already say, tack on an Energy HA and it's an energy attack.  Slap into a 2-3 slot MP;  long as they're all HAs, you can slap a custom MP Only modifier.  (This approach means, it doesn't affect the slots, because the HA limitation is handled in an odd manner.)  You don't increase the END cost;  you don't have to answer questions like, how does this impact the damage cap, how does this impact the actual dice of damage when something else gets applied?  Take the easy route. :)  

 

A *rude* stunt in 6E is to define a VPP that is 5 base, 6 Control Cost.  Zero phase, no skill roll.  HAs/HKAs only...I'm calling that a -1.  10 points.  That lets you build a 1d6 versus PD or ED (with any SFX desired), 1/2 d6 AVAD or NND (against Rare defenses), or 1 pip NND, Does Body, versus a rare defense.  Yeah, there's only a few STOP!!! signs about that, but hey..... :)

 

HA in 5th was a confusing set of rules. I believe 1/3 or more of the questions to Steve were on how it worked. Read the RAW, then read it again and go through all the special cases you can think of and make some decisions for how you'll run it.

 

As far as that VPP goes, it's perfectly legal but I question giving Variable SFX for free on what is by definition a single Power used in various ways at least in the context of triggering Vulnerabilities, Susceptibilities and Limited Powers. It's not specifically mentioned in RAW but published examples do seem to use it.

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4 minutes ago, Grailknight said:

As far as that VPP goes, it's perfectly legal but I question giving Variable SFX for free on what is by definition a single Power used in various ways at least in the context of triggering Vulnerabilities, Susceptibilities and Limited Powers. It's not specifically mentioned in RAW but published examples do seem to use it.

 

Not entirely sure what you're trying to say here...this VPP

a)  does not use variable SFX.  It's a VPP;  I simply change the definition of the power.

b)  goes WELL beyond Variable SFX.  Variable SFX technically allows switching between PD and ED...but the VPP allows AVAD, AVAD Does Body, and even stuff like AP, Penetrating, 1 pip + 2 points of Reduced Negation, etc. etc.  

 

If you're suggesting that it goes way too much?  That's why it's so insanely rude. :)  No, I wouldn't allow it very often.

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8 minutes ago, unclevlad said:

 

Not entirely sure what you're trying to say here...this VPP

a)  does not use variable SFX.  It's a VPP;  I simply change the definition of the power.

b)  goes WELL beyond Variable SFX.  Variable SFX technically allows switching between PD and ED...but the VPP allows AVAD, AVAD Does Body, and even stuff like AP, Penetrating, 1 pip + 2 points of Reduced Negation, etc. etc.  

 

If you're suggesting that it goes way too much?  That's why it's so insanely rude. :)  No, I wouldn't allow it very often.

 

Variable SFX also allows thing like changing from fire to electricity to gamma radiation. I've seen people try to use it in VPP's to affect Vulnerabilities (especially with Magic Pools). Your VPP has a defined SFX(unless you pay for Cosmic), you would try to get AVAD, Penetrating, AP or Does BODY for free, Variable SFX is in the same list of Advantages and should be paid for.

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No, a VPP doesn't have an SFX in that sense...the "pool type" is simply a characterization.  A VPP can have any SFX on a power...unless there are limits applied or by agreement.  There are none here...not on that.  The only limitation is on the type of powers.  Cosmic Power Pool is simply the shorthand for Zero Phase, No Skill Roll...and it has those.

 

Changing electrical to gamma via Variable SFX is NOT the same.  It's still (let's presume) a normal attack versus ED.  With the VPP, I can change it to AVAD vs. Power Def, Does Body...OR keep it as a standard attack vs. ED, if I want.  Also note that Variable SFX is a damage enhancing advantage...so it affects net damage.  If I'm just applying a special effect via the VPP, there is no drop in damage.  If I'm making it an AVAD, then yes, the dice change.

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All Powers in HERO have SFX defined at purchase.

 

I think you are confusing Variable SFX with Variable Advantage.

 

Variable SFX is specifically for interchanging things like fire, cold and radiation. Variable Advantage lets you change from AP to Reduced END or No Range. The first has the same damage but may trigger different Limitations or Advantages of the target. The second changes the damage type of the user's attack.

 

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Nope, I'm not.  And a VPP is not a power, it's a framework.  

 

EDIT:  It's a VPP.  I'm going up against a flame guy.  I define the VPP as 1d6 HA, vs. PD, SFX of water.  Later on, I'm going up against a brick.  I define it as HA, AVAD vs. Mental Defense.

 

Every specific power I define in the VPP will have SFX...chosen in the moment.  The VPP does not have SFX.

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Then why does it say on CC page 7: "Decide what ability you want to create by choosing the ability's Special Effect."

 

Then on page 122 in the text for VPP's: "Typically, these Powers are linked by common Special Effects, such as "gadgets," "magic," "fire/heat," or "mentalism." That certainly implies that a common SFX should be set for all the Powers in the VPP.

2 hours ago, unclevlad said:

Nope, I'm not.  And a VPP is not a power, it's a framework.  

 

EDIT:  It's a VPP.  I'm going up against a flame guy.  I define the VPP as 1d6 HA, vs. PD, SFX of water.  Later on, I'm going up against a brick.  I define it as HA, AVAD vs. Mental Defense.

 

Every specific power I define in the VPP will have SFX...chosen in the moment.  The VPP does not have SFX.

 

No problem with using SFX water vs the fire guy, assuming your character's SFX is water and not radiation. I notice you don't even give a SFX for the second Power. Seems kinda meta-gamey to me. 

 

Also vs PD is not an SFX or an Advantage just a basic Game Mechanic, the second HA has a different Advantage, but again, What is the SFX?

 

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44 minutes ago, Grailknight said:

Then why does it say on CC page 7: "Decide what ability you want to create by choosing the ability's Special Effect."

 

Then on page 122 in the text for VPP's: "Typically, these Powers are linked by common Special Effects, such as "gadgets," "magic," "fire/heat," or "mentalism." That certainly implies that a common SFX should be set for all the Powers in the VPP.

 

No problem with using SFX water vs the fire guy, assuming your character's SFX is water and not radiation. I notice you don't even give a SFX for the second Power. Seems kinda meta-gamey to me. 

 

Also vs PD is not an SFX or an Advantage just a basic Game Mechanic, the second HA has a different Advantage, but again, What is the SFX?

 

 

First, because again, the VPP is NOT!!! an ability.  If's a framework under which specific abilities are structured.  And because for the VPP, that says "typically."  It isn't a requirement, it's conventional.  Many VPPs will have a limitation on the possible SFX.  But "typically" is the critical word here.  It is NOT "always."  Go down to p. 123, under Common Configurations.  Gadget Pool takes a "slightly limited class (-1/4)".  Magic Pool takes the same.  There is no limitation like that here.  Look at Cosmic Power Pool.  "Whatever the character wants, whenever the character wants."  There's no extra cost for having whatever SFX you want.  Limiting the SFX is a LIMITATION that can be worth points back on the control cost.  

 

Also, note that "gadgets" is NOT the SFX of a power.  A hand taser is a gadget.  The SFX is electricity.  A gun that shoots strands of goo that entrap, surround and harden...Entangle Gun.  SFX...probably chemical.  The point is, they're all gadgets of some sort.  Mentalism would also fit in this mold.  A "mentalist" VPP can cover TK, telepathy, mind blast/illusion/scan/link/control, and clairsentience trivially;  those are classical mentalist powers.  Some other things like rPD or Deflection can fit it...the SFX would be TK.  The SFX for telepathy and the Mind X powers may simply be Telepathy.  The Entangle...has to be a Mental Entangle.  Note the -1/2 limitations on p. 123...only fire powers.  OK, that says everything has to have a Fire SFX.  Worth a sizable limitation there.  Only Powers the Target Has?  Means you're copying the power, to me...including the SFX of the power.  So...no, the powers you actualize don't have the same SFX.

 

In 6E supers, I can define...oh, how about a 120 point pool size, 60 point control size, with 1/2 phase to change powers, and let's go with a common limitation of standard RSR...the skill being, of course, the same Power skill I use to manipulate the pool.  Boom...I can have 3 separate 60 active point powers up at once.  And there are no limits at this point about what they are, or what the SFX on them will be.  That's a HUGE amount of freedom and one that many GMs won't like...it can also slow the game down immensely.  This is WHY!!!  the VPP gets the STOP sign.  

 

 

 

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10 hours ago, unclevlad said:

RAW says it's all energy.  If you split it into physical and energy components, then...do you apply both PD and ED???  That obviously destroys the attack.

 

In 6E, everything adds up.  So if it's 4d6 from STR...it's 12d6.  If there's extra damage from MA DCs or maneuvers, add them as well.

 

In 5E, the material you want is on page 405.  The base rule is you can't do more than double the base damage...but...with HAs, the base damage is treated as STR + HA.  (This is NOT the case with killing attacks.)  There's also the side note about Ninja Hero, allowing martial stuff being counted in the base because non super martial artists rarely have serious STR.

 

Thank you for the 5e page reference!  That's what I was looking for.

 

I found the 6e reference; 6e1, p.231.  The HA does add to MA, and the attack is all verses ED.  (5e HA text is very similar to 6e.)

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With A VPP you can usually change the special effect within reason.  If my VPP is a gadget pool I can define my EB as a flame thrower, electric gun, a freeze ray or just about anything else I can think of.  The same is true for a magic pool.  I can cast a fire ball, a lightning bolt, or blast of stone.  There may be a few special effects that do not make sense for a specific VPP.  For example, if your gadget pool is because based on building scientific devices, I can see not allowing magic.  Likewise, a spell based VPP would probably not be able to create something that uses Gama Rays.  Usually, a VPP that have a narrow special effect have limitations on the VPP restricting what can be put in it.  So, the VPP that only allows fire is going to have a large limitation on it.    

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Fire Powers Only is a supplied example.  It's only -1/2.  Part of this is...what's plausible under a Fire SFX?  You have attack, defense, LS (cold), movement, and Change Environment, just off the top of my head.  Possibly Flash, too.  And that's without trying to get creative.

 

But, why can't a magic pool do radiation?  It's not a common association, maybe, but so what?  And is it just gamma rays?  What about X rays, or UV, or alpha radiation?    What's a Disintegration spell?  Why not a nasty gamma/x-ray plus kinetic combination where the radiation disturbs the structure, while the kinetic peels it away?  Hey, maybe the mage doesn't have the physics background to accurately *describe* it...but who cares? :)  

 

But that's a subject to be discussed between the player and GM, cuz by and large, saying some SFX aren't allowed, isn't gonna be worth a limitation until you get into some pretty broad swathes of em.  Remember:  getting a combat-adjustable VPP carries a LOT of overhead.  Yeah, they can also be exploited like crazy, too.

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What fits into a VPP is always going to be up the GM.  Most of the time it is not enough to get a limitation, or if there is a limitation it is going to be a -0.  Personally, I would consider a magic pool or scientific gadget pool to be no limitation.   I would not allow a scientific gadget pool to have the special effect of either holy or magic.  Unless the sorcerer also understood physics, I would not allow things like gama rays.   If the player can come up with a good reason why the spell uses that particular energy, I might let it go, but it is going to have to be more than because it is the villain's weakness. 

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Like most limitations, it depends on how it will be used.  If the SFX restriction can be leveraged, and will be on a regular basis, that justifies some limitation.  You want -1/4 for "magic"?  Well, expect that you will sometimes see Magic Suppression Fields, Dispel Magic, Detect Magic and opponents well-defended against Magic in all forms.

 

The limitation I recall for Gadget Pools are common limitations for all powers in the pool, like Focus.

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The other argument for -1/4 for "magic" might be that ALL powers take that as its SFX, so it can't trigger a vulnerability to e.g. fire, even if it's a fireball.  Magical fire is not fire, it's magic.  

 

Note that I'd also probably limit some of the more exotic aspects like what can be targeted with an AVAD, if Magic Defense doesn't exist.  SFX aspects are a lot less meaningful against AVADs.

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