How do you treat VPP's AP in regards to a Campaign Limit?

[unclevlad]

11 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

No more so than everyone else in the campaign who has a 60 active point limit.

 

Depends on whether reduced END is the exception.  It often is.

[Hugh Neilson]

If you set an AP maximum of 60 points, but allow a 9d6 or 12d6 0 END Blast, then you have made an exception to the AP limit.  That sounds more like a 12 DC limit than a 60 AP limit.

[LoneWolf]

In games I run 0 END, 1/2 END all still count. Being able to keep fighting when you have no END left is an advantage so why would you not count it? 

[Jhamin]

On 6/21/2022 at 12:08 PM, unclevlad said:

 

Depends on whether reduced END is the exception.  It often is.

 

That is a house rule.  Its probably not one that breaks the game, but it *is* a house rule. You can't expect the official rules of a power framework to conform to a house rule without some hand-waving.

[unclevlad]

AP caps are a house rule.

[Ndreare]

I feel like it is being disingenuous to say that AP limits are "house rules" and being treated like some sort of second class idea. 

They are presented with suggested values in the core rules of 6E1, where in 5th, and in FRed. I do not recal if they were in BBB, but they are still something player and GM work with just like any other guideline.

On the actual topic I like the way HD does it. And wen refering to VPP I have always had a side eye on them anyways because of how much they can slow down play.
 

[Christopher R Taylor]

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AP caps are a house rule.

 

Only in the sense that, say, how many points you can build your character on for this campaign is a house rule.  The Active Point Cap has been around in the rules for many editions now and is very standard for almost all campaigns.  That's not remotely the same as "meh, we don't care about the cost of reduced END in this game"

[Hugh Neilson]

17 hours ago, Jhamin said:

 

That is a house rule.  Its probably not one that breaks the game, but it *is* a house rule. You can't expect the official rules of a power framework to conform to a house rule without some hand-waving.

 

16 hours ago, unclevlad said:

AP caps are a house rule.

 

BINGO!

 

15 hours ago, Ndreare said:

I feel like it is being disingenuous to say that AP limits are "house rules" and being treated like some sort of second class idea. 

They are presented with suggested values in the core rules of 6E1, where in 5th, and in FRed. I do not recal if they were in BBB, but they are still something player and GM work with just like any other guideline.

On the actual topic I like the way HD does it. And wen refering to VPP I have always had a side eye on them anyways because of how much they can slow down play.
 

 

10 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

Only in the sense that, say, how many points you can build your character on for this campaign is a house rule.  The Active Point Cap has been around in the rules for many editions now and is very standard for almost all campaigns.  That's not remotely the same as "meh, we don't care about the cost of reduced END in this game"

 

Steve Long made it very clear in the "SETAC" days when he was writing 6e that AP limits were not Hero rules, and the rules would not be drafted to accommodate them. This contrasts with DC limits.  I don't know how "GUIDELINE" and "typical range" can be more clear that these are not "rules".  AP is especially suspect, in my view.  Do Standard Supers either have 40+ Power defense, or none?  AP range is 40 - 80. Would we hold that Heroic Wizard to a 13- Magic Skill while requiring RSR on his 30 - 75 AP spells?

 

The table should be read in the context of the rules in their entirety, including Vol 2, p 271 and page 282.  Note p 282 states that these guidelines "are not official Hero System rules in any way; there are no specific instructions for them, or requirements that you institute them."

 

So they are very much house rules.

 

Selection of points available to PCs, by contrast, are clearly a standard - every character gets the same points; the "guidelines" are how many points would be available to all starting characters, not "well, you might have a really good concept that justifies allowing another 50 points to one specific character".

 

[HeroGM]

I see a lot of that stuff as starting points more than anything. You have a 60AP cap for starting characters. Some, MIGHT go over depending on what they are doing. Your brick MIGHT have an 80-100AP, but then again their defenses will be lower than that, so it all balances out somewhere. It's also up to the GM to notice what is going on and where it's going.

 

Personally I use 6e 1 & 2 as my GM books and Champions/Fantasy Complete as the Player's Guide with anything from the bulky 2 that the players need to know written as Campaign 'homebrew'.

[Christopher R Taylor]

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Personally I use 6e 1 & 2 as my GM books and Champions/Fantasy Complete as the Player's Guide

 

That's a good approach, and more like the original release should have been.

[unclevlad]

1 hour ago, HeroGM said:

I see a lot of that stuff as starting points more than anything. You have a 60AP cap for starting characters. Some, MIGHT go over depending on what they are doing. Your brick MIGHT have an 80-100AP, but then again their defenses will be lower than that, so it all balances out somewhere. It's also up to the GM to notice what is going on and where it's going.

 

Personally I use 6e 1 & 2 as my GM books and Champions/Fantasy Complete as the Player's Guide with anything from the bulky 2 that the players need to know written as Campaign 'homebrew'.

 

But that's why one reason why AP caps don't work.  You're saying yourself...it's not a cap, it's about the overall character.  

 

And where does the 60 point cap even come from?  It's NOT what's listed on 6E1 page 35.  That's before even discussing Hugh's observations.  No Gravity Penalty is a great example of a flavorful advantage for Flight...but how often does it really come into play?  Yet, it's a bloody +1/2.  That kills your active points, and raises your END cost...quite often implying you'll need 1/2 END.  Indirect is another (as mentioned on 6E2 283)...I like it, but it doesn't provide a clear edge that frequently.  

 

 

[Ndreare]

3 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

Steve Long made it very clear...

He may have made it clear, but it is presented with every other rule for character creation in 6E1. 

It is presented as an Optional Rule, which like Christopher says above is no differnt than starting points. Is there a rule requiring a GM to start all players with the same amount of points?

A house rule is specifically a term for an unofficial rule made up by players independent of the rules.

When people have questions about other Optional rules do you just dismiss the question because it is an option you do not like or use? If someone asked about stop signs or difficulty modifiers to skills would you tell them to ignore them. Those are only there for GM guidelines?

I think it is inconsistant to treat a concept like Active Point limits in the same way as a House Rule. They are a optional rule presented in 6E1&2 with ranges, guidelinbes and  even a suggested doubling of cost for points spent above those limites. 

I mean come on. If they are just made up house rules why would Hero Designer need to support active point limits in the first place?

To be clear, to me the "house rule" arguments are dismissive and dishonest/inconsistant with how they are presented in the system. 

[Duke Bushido]

For what it ia worth, "house rules" is exactly what the system presents them as.

 

Why does HERO Designer track them?  You would have to ask Dan (Simon on this board) who designed maintains, and offers support for HERO Designer right here on this board.  (Word of caution:  he is rather moody, so watch your phrasing.)

 

If you are looking for guesses?  Popular demand?  People have been using them since 4e so far as I can remember.  (I don't, but I dont give a  rolly red rat's rump about "active points," either, other than Endurance costing).  AP caps are a,near-universal house rule and a non-stop point of discussions all over this board.  In fact, they are so popular that a number of people dont notice the passages that discuss them specify that these are not rules; you may find them helpful.

 

As AP itself has to be tracked to determine the final cost of every build, it makes sense that HD tracks that.  Once you are tracking something, it is not that hard to build a limit or a filter on it.

 

I think it is quite likely that Dan hinself thought "well, it is popular, and helpful to a lot of people, and not much more work than I have done already, so..."

Or he May have been asked to do so by someone else in the company who thought that.

 

 

Again, it is just an opinion, and you can likely get the exact answer from Dan.

[Christopher R Taylor]

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AP caps are a near-universal house rule and a non-stop point of discussions all over this board.  In fact, they are so popular that a number of people dont notice the passages that discuss them specify that these are not rules; you may find them helpful.

 

Just above: 

 

Quote

"It is presented as an Optional Rule, which like Christopher says above is no different than starting points."

 

hmmm

 

[Hugh Neilson]

8 hours ago, Ndreare said:

It is presented as an Optional Rule

 

 P 282 of Vol 2 of the 6e core rules states the AP limits  "are not official Hero System rules in any way; there are no specific instructions for them, or requirements that you institute them."

 

That does not, in my view , present them as "an Optional Rule". They are disclaimed not to be "rules in any way".

[Christopher R Taylor]

I guess it comes down to how you define "optional" and "rule"  For me, anything that is a mechanical structure in a game that can be used or not as you choose is an "optional rule."

[unclevlad]

Both 5E and 6E go to great lengths to say it's NOT a rule...that there are decided drawbacks, for example.  The AP caps are in there, IMO, to help reduce the complexity of character/campaign building.  They're guidelines.  The lower end?  You generally don't want a base attack lower than 40 AP (at 400 points) because the character isn't going to be effective with it.  The high end?  Likely to be too effective.  But game balance doesn't boil down to just one number.

 

It can be OK to use APs;  I think DCs are much better, but what we're arguing against primarily, is using them SO rigidly, and so blindly.  No one's countered that you can't do a Multiform or Duplication, at 400 points...on a 60 AP cap.  The base power exceeds it.  It'd be hard to do a significant Summon...because of the major cost of Amicable.  How about Fantasy Hero, where a TON of spells have pretty darn high APs, then massive limitations to make their costs practical?  How does that fit with AP caps?

 

Y'all are taking a tool and enshrining it as Holy Writ.  

[Christopher R Taylor]

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Y'all are taking a tool and enshrining it as Holy Writ. 

 

I wish I could read the posts you are, because I'm not seeing anyone anywhere doing anything remotely even somewhat close to what you claim here.

[Duke Bushido]

Amd just like that, we are back to "just because it is not a rule doesn't mean it is not rule, and we should clarify if not being a rule means it isn't a rule.

 

I just got over the last instance of that and came back.

 

 

You folks have fun.  I hate to sound like a college girl, but I am _done_.

 

Peace.

[LoneWolf]

AP limits may be house rules, but they are probably the single most common house rule.  It might deserve a term of its own.  Maybe county rule? 

[Hugh Neilson]

21 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

I guess it comes down to how you define "optional" and "rule"  For me, anything that is a mechanical structure in a game that can be used or not as you choose is an "optional rule."

 

I don't define anything the rules go out of their way to say are not rules in any way, shape or form whatsoever to be "rules".

 

There is no question that there are AP rules - the Multipower and VPP both rely on AP in their own mechanics.  AP caps are not a rule.

[Chris Goodwin]

If a GM adopts AP caps, they're a rule for the GM's game.  To my knowledge that's the definition of a house rule.  If a GM doesn't adopt them, then they're not a rule.  

 

They're not a HERO System rule.  If a GM doesn't adopt them, there's not something anyone else can point at in the book and say, here's where the rules say this is how they work. 

 

If the GM sets AP caps, then slots in a VPP should abide by them, as should slots in a Multipower.  As others have ably mentioned, the Control Cost of a VPP determines the maximum Active Points of a slot in the VPP.  

 

There is not, to my awareness, any way of setting a general Active Point cap in Hero Designer.  

[unclevlad]

40 minutes ago, Chris Goodwin said:

There is not, to my awareness, any way of setting a general Active Point cap in Hero Designer.  

 

Not a general AP cap, no.  Max AP per attack, yes.  Max AP per defense (which is almost meaningless, since defenses can be improved in so many ways)...yes.  Max points in powers...yes, but that's overall, I believe.  (I have it set at 1000, and to ignore it anyway.)  Plus, it's max points...not max active.  I assume that means max character points.

 

These are in the Campaign Rules settings.

 

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

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They're not a HERO System rule.  If a GM doesn't adopt them, there's not something anyone else can point at in the book and say, here's where the rules say this is how they work. 

 

Right, they are only mentioned as an optional rule.  If you choose to use one for your campaign, its a rule for that campaign, just like how many points you start with.

 

I always considered house rules to be "variants from the rules as written that we use" not "options that we've chosen from the rules".  You know, like "in our game, Stun costs 1 point per point" or "in our game, you cannot use the legsweep maneuver" rather than "you can build a character up to 400 points total."

 

But maybe that's just me.

[Chris Goodwin]

"These are not official HERO System rules in any way; there are no specific instructions for them, or requirements that you institute them. They’re simply campaign management tools some GMs consider useful."

 

If the GM uses them, then by definition they're a house rule.  If the GM doesn't use them, then they're not a rule.  It says right there.  

 

Hero Designer is a useful tool.  A GM is within their rights to require their players to use it; but there's no rule that says they have to, optional or otherwise.  A GM could choose not to require Hero Designer; they might insist that all characters be turned in using a Google spreadsheet, or they might insist on all characters being written in longhand in fountain pen on an 8 1/2" by 14" yellow pad.  Those would be as much house rules as AP caps. 

 

There are dozens of optional rules in the game.  The term "optional rule" is used enough in the HERO System 6th edition that it could almost be considered a "term of art".  Steve Long takes great pains in the description of AP caps to note that they're not "optional rules".  They're not rules, because Steve says they're not.  By definition, if the GM uses them, that makes them house rules.  

 

Consider the board game Monopoly.  Many, perhaps most, people learned from their families that all money paid to the bank for anything but buying property or repaying mortgages goes into the center of the board, to be collected by anyone who lands on Free Parking.  It's specified in the rules of Monopoly that no rewards accrue to players who land on Free Parking.  This is not an optional rule, but a house rule; in fact the first time I ever heard the term "house rule" in relation to a game was in this context.  

 

An optional rule is deciding to use Knockdown instead of Knockback, or Hit Locations instead of Killing Attack Stun multipliers.  Active Point caps are not this, because it says so right there in the book that they're not. 

 

That doesn't mean that if a GM is using them that I can just ignore them, nor if the GM is using them that they're not a rule for his game, but they're not a rule of the HERO System, because the rulebook specifically and explicitly says they're not.  Rule of X is not a rule either, despite the name, and Hero Designer is not a rule at all... but as I said, if the GM says to use Hero Designer, that's a house rule.