Does anyone still use the Fourth Edition of Champions?

[Mark Rand]

I've been wondering if the fourth edition is still in use and your opinion of it for a play-by-post game.

[Sketchpad]

I haven't played 4th ed Champions in a while, but still regard it as the best version of the game. As for using it for a PbP, I say play what you like and are comfortable with.

[Opal]

If I build a character for fun, I probably do it in 4th or something resembling it.

 

If I were to run it'd likely be 4th w/variants, or 5th "Hero Lite"

 

 

My opinion of pbp/pbem is colored by the fact I've never seen one get very far.

[Joe Walsh]

4th Edition is what I use, but sorry, I haven't run PbB with it.

[Scott Ruggels]

I’ve still got my BBB. My current problem is no one is running Hero locally.  I have played in 4th Ed. PBM and PBEM, under Carl Rigney, but I have not GMed one. I have GMed a small Play by Post on a Discord server, but it stalled.  

[carmachu]

Starting a new campaign this Saturday  with 4th.

[BNakagawa]

Our local game uses 4th with a sprinkling of 5th.

[Mark Rand]

I'm going to use the fourth edition rules along with the Ultimate series books from the fifth edition rules.

[steriaca]

I don't own any 4ed anymore. 

[Mark Rand]

8 hours ago, steriaca said:

I don't own any 4ed anymore. 

The Hero Store should have the PDF.  DriveThruRPG probably does, too.

[Jhamin]

On 7/25/2022 at 5:44 PM, Mark Rand said:

I'm going to use the fourth edition rules along with the Ultimate series books from the fifth edition rules.

 

 

Honest question: What part of 5th wont you be using?

 

My memory of 5th was that it added options but didn't really change much from 4th.  What am I missing?

[BNakagawa]

Among the things that are unwelcome from 5th: Megascale and Does Knockback (especially on presence attacks)

[BoloOfEarth]

2 hours ago, BNakagawa said:

Among the things that are unwelcome from 5th: Megascale and Does Knockback (especially on presence attacks)

 

A Megascale Presence Attack?!  I must have missed that one.

[Killer Shrike]

The GM can veto anything they don't want in their games. If a couple of options that one doesn't have to allow are enough to prevent one from using an entire edition of a game, I guess I just don't understand that.

[Killer Shrike]

On 7/17/2022 at 3:00 PM, Mark Rand said:

A) I've been wondering if the fourth edition is still in use

and

B) your opinion of it for a play-by-post game.

A ) I think 6e is the best version of the game mechanically, but 4e was perhaps the funnest / most bang-for-the-buck version. I don't think it really matters though; if a competent GM is running a Hero System game of any edition, interested players will likely enjoy it.

 

B ) I don't think the Hero System is very well suited to play by post. I ran a superhero based PbP on Hero Central back in the day and even with the very solid software support of HC it was a slog. It took way more time and effort to run that game than any face to face game I've ever run in any system. The precise timing and granular tactical interactions of Hero System combat which make it such a good battle simulator in synchronous f2f play are a major impediment in asynchronous PbP play. One Turn of Hero System combat played out segment by segment in initiative order could take an inordinate amount of days to play out via PbP, and almost all the tension and excitement gets leached right out of it.

 

I would recommend going the other way, using a looser resolution with much less granular simulation bias, for PbP.

 

 

Having said that, I did split the difference and write up a variant of Hero System for use in play by post, where publicly the game is much more narrative with characters defined by their players solely in terms of numerically rated Traits. However, in the background the GM actually uses the Hero System as the game resolution system. Turn by turn, you open a time window for players to announce their intentions asynchronously as they are able to post; any players who cannot default to the most sensible / typical thing their character tends to do per your discretion...gotta keep things moving along or the entire enterprise grinds to a halt. Afterwards you the GM collate all the info from the players plus the NPC's and just crank out a full Turn of combat in initiative order, interpreting the players' declared intents and using a bit of handwavium and common sense to gap fill as necessary. Synthesize / summarize the outcome of all that Turn of interaction to create the next chunk of narrative to post, stripped of the mechanical details and focusing on the results.

 

 

Why go to such trouble? Well, it gives you the GM a solid framework to fall back on of Hero System mechanics to prevent being arbitrary, inconsistent, or biased. But it keeps the players out of the sausage factory and keeps the PbP side of it as simple as possible. If it sounds interesting to you, here's the write up:

 

https://www.killershrike.com/GeneralHero/Concepts/TraitDrivenHERO.aspx

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

 

I think 6e is the best version of the game mechanically, but 4e was perhaps the funnest / most bang-for-the-buck version. I don't think it really matters though; if a competent GM is running a Hero System game of any edition, interested players will likely enjoy it.

 

 

I think that is an excellent analysis.

[Beast]

On 7/25/2022 at 3:44 PM, Mark Rand said:

I'm going to use the fourth edition rules along with the Ultimate series books from the fifth edition rules.

 

I have 2 copies of the 4th ed hero system book along with Hero Creator and all of the ultimate books
I have not played 4th ed in over 20 yrs
I'd love to play in a game
what points and stats are you looking at?

 

[Mark Rand]

9 minutes ago, Beast said:

I have 2 copies of the 4th ed hero system book along with Hero Creator and all of the ultimate books
I have not played 4th ed in over 20 yrs
I'd love to play in a game
what points and stats are you looking at?

 

I'm going to go with an open system for my nest play by post game, but some of my character notes will be in Hero System  format.  I'll make all the dice rolls.

[LoneWolf]

In reality not much has changed between the versions in Hero System.  95% of what did change is in character creation.  If you ignored the cost difference you could probably take a character from any edition and play them in a game in any other edition with minimal changes.  

 

This is one of the strengths of the hero system.  Unlike other games when a new edition comes out you don’t need to throw away all the books you bought from the previous version. To this day I still use a lot of the books from 4th edition Fantasy Hero for Ideas.  I may need to do a slight rewrite on the spells to make sure the cost is correct, but the basic way to build it is usually the same.  

 

6th edition is more nuanced and allows you to fine tune the powers a little better.    
 

[Scott Ruggels]

When Karl Rigney was running his epic PBM, most turns were written out, but any combat was organized to occur at conventions.  The combats were fairly epic.  One time,  what was supposed to be a big combat, instead turned into a philosophical discussion in the dark between two stealthed characters.  
 

But running a combat in PBM doesn’t work all that well. You kind of need some sort of real time solution, due to the complexity of Champions combat. Even if it’s just Discord.  

[Christopher R Taylor]

The few attempts I gave at PBEM games, I had the combats break down one turn at a time.  People told me what they had in mind tactically and how they would react to basic things, and I played it out for that turn, then told them what took place.  It worked pretty well but I never tried it with more than one player at a time.

[BNakagawa]

On 7/28/2022 at 7:32 PM, BoloOfEarth said:

 

A Megascale Presence Attack?!  I must have missed that one.

It's the megascale knockback that is truly problematic.

[BoloOfEarth]

Try Extra-Dimensional Knockback.   "I'll hit you so hard, I'll knock you into next week!"

[Vondy]

I run 5e with a less "granular" 4e build aesthetic.

I think 5e adds and clarifies a lot to the 4e chassis. 

It also introduced a cultural mindset of maximalist detail and granularity.

But that mindset isn't hard-coded into the rules. Its purely cultural and psychological.

Its just one way to build a game and characters.

Its the Steve way, and its 100% fine for those who prefer that style of play.

But Steve himself would tell you that you don't have to build characters his way.

And a lot of the later 5e and 6e books have a different style and sensibility.

Hero is super-flexible in all of its incarnations.

You can run pretty simple / streamlined 5e game if you go about it with some intentionality.

 

[Jhamin]

On 9/3/2022 at 5:47 PM, Vondy said:

But that mindset isn't hard-coded into the rules. Its purely cultural and psychological.

Its just one way to build a game and characters.

 

 

This.

Watchers of the Dragon was a pretty well regarded late 4e book (written by Steve Long), but it had all the detailed writeups, long skill lists, and 3 point powers with 6 modifiers that people rag on 5e for.

 

So it was absolutely possible to run 4e that way, it just became the "house style" once 5e dropped.