Is Hero still your "go-to" rpg system?

[BarretWallace]

There have been quite a few low-priced game bundles put out recently, including an excellent one of Hero 6E books.  Even for a Hero veteran like myself, the mechanics-heavy front end is a deterrent.  I'm still tempted to buy the 6E bundle just because you can use it to build literally any game.  It's just been so long since I've been part of a group that I don't know how effectively I can dust off those old cobwebs anymore.

 

Strangely enough, I do still laugh at my first-ever Hero game, where I got to roll the dice that literally blew the head off my first character.

[Alcamtar]

45 minutes ago, BarretWallace said:

Even for a Hero veteran like myself, the mechanics-heavy front end is a deterrent.

 

That's where I am. With 5E I was already teetering on the edge of "I just don't have time for this" but it was okay because I *knew* the system and I loved it as it was. 6E changed it just enough to be unfamiliar again and I have to convert everything, relearn the skills and powers and point balances, and plus it changed some things I loved. The changes seem small but they were enough to break the camel's back.

 

I just don't play heavy games anymore. I ditched 3E, ditched pathfinder, ditched GURPS, even Savage Worlds and 5E D&D are borderline these days. Hero was the ONLY rules-heavy game on my shelf that I played and it was only because of familiarity that it remained... I could play it fast because I had it memorized, though prep still took too long. Honestly if 7E returned to a 4E level of bloat, brought back figured characteristics and stuff, I'd probably play it again, but I doubt that will ever happen.

 

I did buy the 6E bundles because the price was right to complete my collection.

 

[tkdguy]

Does 6E have its own version of Sidekick? If so, how does it compare with the 5E version?

 

I agree that changing the game mechanics enough that you have to relearn the system is a deal killer. That's why I never took to the d20 system and didn't buy HERO 6E.

[BarretWallace]

Yeah, I started in 4E, and the transition to 5E had a very short learning curve.  It was more bloated perhaps, like some things were codified that 4E had left nebulous.  The jump from 5E to 6E was a lot more drastic.  That didn't last terribly long before Hero Central (the post-college avenue for all my Hero System gaming) sadly died.  Maybe if I'd given it more time*, 6E would have grown on me more.

 

*This is predicated, of course, on finding a table (physical or virtual) to play the game with in the first place.

[Duke Bushido]

On 2/7/2023 at 2:45 PM, BarretWallace said:

Yeah, I started in 4E, and the transition to 5E had a very short learning curve. 

 

 

 

Dude, you want to talk about watching something grow out of control?

 

A lot of us started with 1e.  I stopped with 2e (still play; I just didn't go in for newer rules sets) and back-ported a few things from 4e (not many), Champs 2 and Champs 3, and of course, I also back-ported the _must have_ "Create' from the original Fantasy HERO (as easy as back-porting and up-porting are in HERO, absolutely no edition has attempted to touch Create.  I cannot believe that forty years later we are still putzing around with trying to beat Transform into doing the job of Create on staff of using the thing that actually does that- that actually creates, and it has been hanging right there in front of us, with a large label,that says "use this to create!").

 

The majority of 6e players say 6e plays the same (unless,you want to create something)- and I don't doubt that it does- but it seems to quadruple the preload, especially if you are new to the game.

 

 

[Old Man]

I understood most of that.  I think.

 

While Peterson FH will always be my favorite TTRPG, I feel as though 4e was the sweet spot for Hero, if only for timing reasons.  4e got rid of most of the really clunky mechanics (i.e. END Batteries) combined with good overall system balance and excellent production values.  And the nineties were a great time for Hero, while TSR fumbled AD&D and before to the invention of CCGs, and ICE even supported the system for a bit, publishing the closest thing to official Fantasy Hero adventures that we ever got.  By the time 5e rolled around, CCGs and CRPGs and MMORPGs had shortened attention spans everywhere, and short attention spans are not suited to 5e.

 

And you're right about the preload for 6e; the most glaring example is Star Hero, which has pregenerated stats for almost nothing in a genre that is practically defined by its gadgetry. 

[assault]

It's easy to deal with the preload problem in non-superheroic genres. It only takes one person to deal with it, scrub it up into a publishable form, and then, well, publish it.

Superheroes are more difficult.

There are already a bunch of different ways to create Champions characters easily and quickly though. And of course there are a horde of published villains and other NPCs. All that requires buying a bunch of other stuff besides the basic rules though.

Then again... I had no problem back in the day with buying three hardcover books in order to play AD&D.

[Joe Walsh]

Looks like we're turning to our favorite subject, "What's wrong with HERO and how I'd fix it."

 

This morning on the long drive to the office I was thinking about HERO (as one does) and the RPG industry in general (again, totally normal thing to do -- I don't know why you're looking at me funny) and I started to draw a hasty conclusion (something no one online ever does) and wondered if it was worth anything.

 

Hypothesis: Tabletop RPGs with enduring popularity tend to be beautiful messes.

 

White box D&D, Champions, Shadowrun, D6 System...all were games that did something new and neat with easily digestible basics -- but there were major flaws in design and/or presentation. All became popular enough to get several attempts by different designers and publishers at fixing their flaws, but those attempts don't seem to have boosted their popularity (aside from D&D, which is in many ways its own thing due not least to making it into the mainstream, with a mainstream budget for much of its life).

 

Maybe, from a hobby perspective, what works are games a hobbyist can learn in an afternoon but which cry out for tinkering. As long as there's something neat about them that provides a compelling enough reason to tinker with them and want to share their tinkering with friends and family.

 

Maybe that's why beautiful, orderly designs with great execution like EABA get lost in the waves.

 

And maybe that's one reason why making HERO System more orderly and logical didn't yield more customers.

 

Sure, there are many reasons for HERO's current situation; we're all familiar with them. But maybe this is part of it too?

[Cygnia]

Obvious question...what edition was the Big Blue Book?  That's what I started with and I know that was before the Fuzion stuff...

[Hugh Neilson]

Big Blue Book was the dawn of 4e.

 

[And why did I start typing a response about the "Blue Book" from the first Basic D&D?]

[Old Man]

1 hour ago, GM Joe said:

Looks like we're turning to our favorite subject, "What's wrong with HERO and how I'd fix it."

 

This morning on the long drive to the office I was thinking about HERO (as one does) and the RPG industry in general (again, totally normal thing to do -- I don't know why you're looking at me funny) and I started to draw a hasty conclusion (something no one online ever does) and wondered if it was worth anything.

 

Hypothesis: Tabletop RPGs with enduring popularity tend to be beautiful messes.

 

White box D&D, Champions, Shadowrun, D6 System...all were games that did something new and neat with easily digestible basics -- but there were major flaws in design and/or presentation. All became popular enough to get several attempts by different designers and publishers at fixing their flaws, but those attempts don't seem to have boosted their popularity (aside from D&D, which is in many ways its own thing due not least to making it into the mainstream, with a mainstream budget for much of its life).

 

Maybe, from a hobby perspective, what works are games a hobbyist can learn in an afternoon but which cry out for tinkering. As long as there's something neat about them that provides a compelling enough reason to tinker with them and want to share their tinkering with friends and family.

 

Maybe that's why beautiful, orderly designs with great execution like EABA get lost in the waves.

 

And maybe that's one reason why making HERO System more orderly and logical didn't yield more customers.

 

Sure, there are many reasons for HERO's current situation; we're all familiar with them. But maybe this is part of it too?

 

The moral of the story is that the system isn't the problem, or at least it isn't the biggest problem.  The recent WotC debacle has people in D&D forums complaining about what they don't like in D&D.  But obviously it's not a dealbreaker since they're... playing D&D.  (To say nothing of the Stockholm-syndrome players who insist "it's not D&D if it's not Vancian magic!".)  Shadowrun was an even bigger disaster systemwise, despite three or four total rewrites.

 

Beautiful, orderly designs certainly matter in terms of making the game fun and avoiding weird situations (like the time my D&D 5e paladin flung himself off a fifty-foot castle wall safe in the knowledge that he'd only lose maybe half his HP).  But presentation and support would seem to be at least as important, if not more so.

[BarretWallace]

If I were to "fix" Hero somehow, I'd lower the entry barrier, or "energy of activation" as we call it in the chemistry world.  Get me a starter set, something like Call of Cthulhu's "Alone Against [X]" series.  Present me with a character and guide me through a short story.  Help me learn the rules by fleshing them out bit by bit, pointing out what skill to roll to resolve the encounter, etc.  Maybe have a few of these as ways to introduce Hero games in different genres.  Have a list of skills, powers, and equipment with their point costs, and dive into the underlying math later.  Maybe it's an age thing these days, but asking me to digest a massive chunk of game mechanics just to start play will result in a hard pass.  D&D is a mechanical mess, but I can throw together a character in less than an hour with minimal guidance, and be slaying orcs soon thereafter.  Hero is an excellent multi-drawer tool chest I can use to build anything, but to do that before I even start play is a turn-off.

 

It's a shame, really.  Had I devoted more time to finding and maintaining a Hero group, I would not need to learn a whole new system to play a whole new game; I'd just have to tweak the system I already know to fit that game.  I do still enjoy these forums because of the...interesting individuals here, plus the generally respectful tone of discussions we tend to have.

 

And dammit Old Man, now I can't get the image of that flying paladin out of my head.

Edited February 8, 2023 by BarretWallace
Added a few details

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

If I were to "fix" Hero somehow, I'd lower the entry barrier, or "energy of activation" as we call it in the chemistry world.  Get me a starter set, something like Call of Cthulhu's "Alone Against [X]" series. 

 

That is the theory behind Champions Begins, and hopefully a chapter 2 that introduces a short campaign and how to build characters.  I think Hero is not terribly hard to learn and play, its just intimidating to open the book the way its presented.  And let's be honest, young people of today are not the young people of 1980.  They're every bit as smart, creative, and able, they're just raised on quick, easy rewards and entertainment.  They aren't raised to read and study and learn, they aren't as willing to try harder stuff, and they aren't open to books and paper when they have so many video games and streaming and phone content just dumped all over them their entire youth.  So its a bit of an uphill battle for EVERY game system.

[Opal]

16 hours ago, Old Man said:

I feel as though 4e was the sweet spot for Hero,

I agree.  Before that it wasn't a unified universal system, just another 80s "core system" a given company would build a variation on with each new game.

And after that, way too much bloat in skills, perks, skills, proficiencies, skills, familiarities, skills, contacts, skills, skills, and more skills, not to mention open-ended knowledges, sciences, proffessions, area knowledges, and, oh, yeah languages. 

 

Like, 1st:

"Ima detective in m'secret ID"

Detective Work, INT roll, 5 pts

 

Then 2nd & 3rd, stuff bled in from Espionage, Justice Inc, Danger International ...

Criminology is only 3 pts.... better pick up profession Private Investigator and Perk PI liscence, as well. 2pts ea.    

 

4th ... I think there's a 20 point package for that some where... 😐

 

5th. Did I say 20? I meant 50.  😞

 

6th:  I see your 50 and raise you...

=:-O

 

 

[Alcamtar]

16 hours ago, assault said:

Then again... I had no problem back in the day with buying three hardcover books in order to play AD&D.

I seem to recall those hardbacks being around $12-15 each!

 

For comparison:

AD&D 1e is 350 pages (PHB 125 pages, MM 100 pages, DMG 225 pages).

Fantasy Hero 4E is 650 pages (Core 200 pages, FH 250 pages, Bestiary 200 pages).

Fantasy Hero 6E is 2100+ pages (Core 800 pages, FH 450 pages, Grimoire 400 pages, Bestiary 500 pages).

[Old Man]

19 minutes ago, Alcamtar said:

I seem to recall those hardbacks being around $12-15 each!

 

I distinctly recall most of the hardbacks being $12 and the DMG was $20 or $22.  I remember the day I splurged on the MM, FF, MM2, DMG, and Greyhawk boxed set all at once. 

 

19 minutes ago, Alcamtar said:

 

For comparison:

AD&D 1e is 350 pages (PHB 125 pages, MM 100 pages, DMG 225 pages).

Fantasy Hero 4E is 650 pages (Core 200 pages, FH 250 pages, Bestiary 200 pages).

Fantasy Hero 6E is 2100+ pages (Core 800 pages, FH 450 pages, Grimoire 400 pages, Bestiary 500 pages).

 

AD&D 5e PH alone is 316 pages.

 

FH 1e/3e is 160 pages.  Take that, AD&D!

[Duke Bushido]

20 hours ago, Old Man said:

I understood most of that.  I think.

 

There you go: it has been painstakingly remastered via an interface that lets me see roughly twenty-four words at a time.

 

Alll for you, Amigo.  Enjoy. 

 

 

20 hours ago, Old Man said:

 

While Peterson FH will always be my favorite TTRPG, I feel as though 4e was the sweet spot for Hero, if only for timing reasons.  4e got rid of most of the really clunky mechanics (i.e. END Batteries) combined with good overall system balance and excellent production values.  And the nineties were a great time for Hero, while TSR fumbled AD&D and before to the invention of CCGs, and ICE even supported the system for a bit, publishing the closest thing to official Fantasy Hero adventures that we ever got. 

 

Yep.  I still have those old Shadow World goodies.  I realize that Iron Crown is the Copyright holder, but it would be nice to be able to at least have a portal in the HERO store that goes to wherever ICE sells their PDFs.

 

 

 

20 hours ago, Old Man said:

 

By the time 5e rolled around, CCGs and CRPGs and MMORPGs had shortened attention spans everywhere, and short attention spans are not suited to 5e.

 

Yep.  And,you can actually _hear_ their eyes glass over when you dump a stack of 6e in front of them, or the prototype for 6e- while it had no official name, I tend to call the combination of 5e's Character Creation Handbook, Combat Guide, and Equipment Guide "5e.jet"  (no; that term has no significance to anyone outside a very small group of arcade cabinet fighting games by Data East; you aren't missing any useful knowledge).

 

Throw in the Martial Arts book and the vehicle book and I call it "6e 0.5."

 

Either one is pretty good for generating y eyes are glassing over" sound effects.

 

 

20 hours ago, Old Man said:

And you're right about the preload for 6e; the most glaring example is Star Hero, which has pregenerated stats for almost nothing in a genre that is practically defined by its gadgetry. 

 

 

Maddening, isn't it?!  Remember the original Star HERO?  The self-contained "shades of Robot Warriors" 3e HERO science fiction game?

 

What was that?  A third the size of Star HERO, larger font, more open formatting, less information dense--  but still managed to find eight pages to layout a single setting, and even offer a variant.

 

Sure: "that was _the_ setting; that was the official setting,  they had to do that."

 

But here is the thing:  it was pretty crappy.  I mean, I loved it, but it was crap.  It was insanely,barebones, with very little information about anything but a couple of political and social conflicts....

 

But it was _miles_ ahead of the handful of absolutely nothing found in the expansive (and pricey!.  Though to be fair: James,Cambias, you know?) work that was Star HERO.  If you were lucky, you could still find one or two of the 5e serring books on the clearance rack at your game store, bur if you didnt know that they were compatible..  Well, unless your store guy played HERO (and you know he didn't), you let them go by until it was too late.

 

Then you end up like me: unqble to complete your collection because no one has even a PDF of Rescue at Karradoon. 

 

 

 

 

 

[assault]

2 hours ago, Old Man said:

AD&D 5e PH alone is 316 pages.

 

FH 1e/3e is 160 pages.  Take that, AD&D!

 

For comparable functionality you should also add in the Bestiary and the Spell and Magic item books.

 

Yes, you could DIY them, but that's avoidable self-inflicted effort.

 

Still, that's still a lot lower page count than current D&D, and probably the contemporary D&D. Definitely the latter too once you include the books beyond the original three - but that's additional content you need to match.

 

The most striking difference is FH's lower production values.

 

Shame about the lack of adventures.

[assault]

On 1/18/2023 at 12:11 AM, Duke Bushido said:

How about a nice blend of Conan, Dune, and John Carter's Barsoom?

 

Just-  just _think_ of the lawsuits we could have with such a glorious setting!

With diligent filing off the serial numbers, lawsuits wouldn't be a problem.

D&D's Dark Sun setting would be another thing to avoid parallels with.

Still not quite to my taste, but definitely doable.

Other stuff to milk: Flash Gordon and sundry Moorcock stuff.

And Star Wars. Why not. Tattoine!

[Ninja-Bear]

11 hours ago, Opal said:

I agree.  Before that it wasn't a unified universal system, just another 80s "core system" a given company would build a variation on with each new game.

And after that, way too much bloat in skills, perks, skills, proficiencies, skills, familiarities, skills, contacts, skills, skills, and more skills, not to mention open-ended knowledges, sciences, proffessions, area knowledges, and, oh, yeah languages. 

 

Like, 1st:

"Ima detective in m'secret ID"

Detective Work, INT roll, 5 pts

 

Then 2nd & 3rd, stuff bled in from Espionage, Justice Inc, Danger International ...

Criminology is only 3 pts.... better pick up profession Private Investigator and Perk PI liscence, as well. 2pts ea.    

 

4th ... I think there's a 20 point package for that some where... 😐

 

5th. Did I say 20? I meant 50.  😞

 

6th:  I see your 50 and raise you...

=:-O

 

 

I was going to say that about skills. In 4th to he a doctor you need to buy both professional skill and knowledge plus perk. 
 

Also it seems that the concept of having every seemingly minor disadvantage having a point cost to it. 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

 

AD&D 1e is 350 pages (PHB 125 pages, MM 100 pages, DMG 225 pages).

Fantasy Hero 4E is 650 pages (Core 200 pages, FH 250 pages, Bestiary 200 pages).

Fantasy Hero 6E is 2100+ pages (Core 800 pages, FH 450 pages, Grimoire 400 pages, Bestiary 500 pages).

 

 

There's been bloat like that in every new edition.

D&D 3rd edition 780 pages (PHB 300, MM 224, DMG 256) and that doesn't count the many specialty books for each class etc

I don't know later editions but I would guess they were bigger.

[Old Man]

12 hours ago, assault said:

With diligent filing off the serial numbers, lawsuits wouldn't be a problem.

D&D's Dark Sun setting would be another thing to avoid parallels with.

Still not quite to my taste, but definitely doable.

Other stuff to milk: Flash Gordon and sundry Moorcock stuff.

And Star Wars. Why not. Tattoine!

 

John Carter is a little weird--the stories are public domain but the character is trademarked (as opposed to copyrighted).  So you could use Barsoom, but not John Carter.

 

Flash Gordon is also a little weird--certain films are public domain but the strip might fall into public domain in six years or so.

 

Likewise, Conan is due to fall into public domain in 2029, but he's popular enough that I'm sure someone will fight you for it.

 

Dark Sun, Star Wars, and Moorcock are right out.

 

But I would play the hell out of this campaign.  I'd throw in some Jack Vance as well, just to tweak the D&Ders.

[Doc Democracy]

17 hours ago, Alcamtar said:

I seem to recall those hardbacks being around $12-15 each!

 

For comparison:

AD&D 1e is 350 pages (PHB 125 pages, MM 100 pages, DMG 225 pages).

Fantasy Hero 4E is 650 pages (Core 200 pages, FH 250 pages, Bestiary 200 pages).

Fantasy Hero 6E is 2100+ pages (Core 800 pages, FH 450 pages, Grimoire 400 pages, Bestiary 500 pages).

 

$15 in 1980 is equivalent to just over $50 today, so three books comes to $150 in today's money.

I reckon the wrong turn HERO took was pulling its focus out instead of simply providing a supplementary core HERO book.

 

Champions could have progressively become more focused on a core HERO System supers campaign, with more defined game standards.  Similar for Fantasy HERO, Justice Inc and Danger International.

Supplements could have been produced to play games in each genre at different power levels with different skills, starting points etc.

 

Imagine a 450 page Fantasy HERO that had a defined magic system, skillset, Bestiary and some adventures.  it is easy to do.

 

You would only need the core book to do your own tinkering and world building. Splat books would gavenew magic systems, new beasts, ideas for building fighter types etc etc.

 

Doc

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

Imagine a 450 page Fantasy HERO that had a defined magic system, skillset, Bestiary and some adventures.  it is easy to do.

 

D&D has proved that people are more than willing to buy multiple books, so having more than one isn't a problem but yeah you don't need to have a book big enough to break your foot by dropping it.

[Joe Walsh]

20 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

I reckon the wrong turn HERO took was pulling its focus out instead of simply providing a supplementary core HERO book.

 

Champions could have progressively become more focused on a core HERO System supers campaign, with more defined game standards.  Similar for Fantasy HERO, Justice Inc and Danger International.

Supplements could have been produced to play games in each genre at different power levels with different skills, starting points etc.

 

Imagine a 450 page Fantasy HERO that had a defined magic system, skillset, Bestiary and some adventures.  it is easy to do.

 

You would only need the core book to do your own tinkering and world building. Splat books would gavenew magic systems, new beasts, ideas for building fighter types etc etc.

 

I believe the same.

 

I wish we had the HERO Games/ICE/DOJ sales figures like we do for GDW (one, two, three -- note that TSR figures are included in that last for comparison purposes), but appearances are that Champions had better sales when the game system was included (1e to 4e I'm more confident about, but maybe Champions Complete too? I recall Jason saying something like, "Champions Complete sells better, and that's important") rather than just as a setting book (5e to 6e) and further that the HERO System core rules never sold as well when offered as a standalone product.

 

Or, to put it another way, I don't think the evidence supports the proposition that the typical RPG hobbyist is interested in buying a toolkit and using it to make an RPG. Doubly so for those new to the hobby or seeking to enter the hobby.

 

Given HERO Games as it exists today, it may be possible to put together a Champions product that's more akin to the 4e BBB (incorporating Champions Begins, preferably, and obviously with a purpose-built game engine rather than a toolkit), and then make the HERO System toolkit a PDF/POD product that isn't emphasized.

 

If that worked, maybe start offering similar books for other popular genres.

 

I'd be so happy to financially support such a move by DOJ. I just wish it could be given a chance.