Is Armor Properly Designed in Fantasy Games?

[Scott Ruggels]

The other factor, is that over the course of a month, if you wear the armor daily, your body will adapt to the weight. Even I in high school adapted to carrying an 80 backpack and I wasn’t very athletic. (The lockers got targeted by pranksters pouring raw eggs into then through the louvers, so most of us carried all of our school books and supplies around. ) 

[mallet]

1 hour ago, Scott Ruggels said:

The other factor, is that over the course of a month, if you wear the armor daily, your body will adapt to the weight. Even I in high school adapted to carrying an 80 backpack and I wasn’t very athletic. (The lockers got targeted by pranksters pouring raw eggs into then through the louvers, so most of us carried all of our school books and supplies around. ) 

That sounds like you gained a point or two in STR (or Penalty Skill Levels vs Encumbrance). Either way, it was spending some of your character points to make carrying around all your books easier. 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Building the armor tables I'm noticing something:

 

Armor is way, WAY under priced in the Fantasy Hero source materials.  Based just on the materials to make them, plus time and effort, they should cost a good 2-5 times as much as listed.  I get this is a D&D concept where armor makers are common and materials are plentiful in cities so you can go down to the Adventurer's Mall and pick up your 10 foot pole and a suit of chainmail on a budget but.... yeah.  Very under priced.

[Ragitsu]

On 8/28/2022 at 2:16 AM, Old Man said:

The only really accurate portrayals of medieval armored combat I've seen in film are Excalibur (1981) and The King (2019), both of which involved bludgeoning each other until one man either got tired or slipped and fell, allowing the other to get a stab in through the eye holes or armpit. 

 

There's also that...70s?...Macbeth film.

 

 

[theinfn8]

There is this YouTube masterpiece. Intro is a bit rough, fight starts at about 6 minutes in.

https://youtu.be/8vYFFx4whoE

 

[Scott Ruggels]

 

[theinfn8]

Shields aren't armour though, they're weapons.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Well they are kinda both, you can both block with them and attack with them.  A shield is like a mobile section of armor which the opponent either attacks through or tries to bypass by targeting other locations.  But you can also slam someone with it or hit them with the edge.  Some shields were even equipped with blades and spikes to help with that.

[theinfn8]

21 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Well they are kinda both, you can both block with them and attack with them.  A shield is like a mobile section of armor which the opponent either attacks through or tries to bypass by targeting other locations.  But you can also slam someone with it or hit them with the edge.  Some shields were even equipped with blades and spikes to help with that.

 

You just described a longsword...

 

You can both block with it and attack with it. Used properly it is a mobile section of armour the opponent has to attack through or bypass by targeting other locations. You can also slam someone with the crossguard or pommel and some longswords were even equipped with spiked crossguards to help with that.

 

My argument still stands. Shields are weapons

 

My snarky comment aside, while I respect the shield and what it does for foot soldiers, it needs to be actively employed to gain most of the benefit in the skirmish style fighting we find ourselves in with fantasy RPGs. Since we are discussing armour emulation, you could, perhaps, say that a shield adjusts your DCV more than it reduces damage (adds to PD) like other "armour". But its ultimate benefit, even in Hero, comes from it being actively used in combat (Block), which is an attack.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

You just described a longsword

 

That is the longsword's big edge in comparison to, say, a katana which is a saber and is extremely fine in office but can't really be used for defense.

 

Quote

you could, perhaps, say that a shield adjusts your DCV more than it reduces damage (adds to PD) like other "armour".

 

That is the approach D&D and Hero take.  It just makes you harder to hit.

[pawsplay]

I've won real-ish armor, and I think the greatest danger you would face in medieval combat was cooking alive like a Hot Pocket from your own body heat after 10-15 minutes of heavy combat.

[MrAgdesh]

Re: the OP question as to whether or not bows should do less damage (for the Jolrhos Player's Guide specifically) 

 

A Very Heavy longbow does 2d6+1 and has an 18 STR min. That, on average, will bounce from full plate armour's DEF of 8. An above average damage roll (or crit) I assume has just hit at "the right angle" to penetrate. 

 

There won't be many of the populace with 18 STR though so the majority of longbowmen you face are likely to be light to medium bow users; 1d6 - 1 1/2d6, meaning that only the medium bowmen can squeeze 1 pip of BODY through on full plate if they roll maximum damage (or a critical).

 

 

To me, the damage therefore seems about right?

 

 

(I'm a big fan of the optional Bows vs Crossbows rules too; HSEG: Pg 32)

[MrAgdesh]

On 9/25/2022 at 6:31 PM, mallet said:

In  a system like HERO where potentially there is no "class" restrictions against any character wearing any armor or heavy armor, I think if balance is to be maintained with the players having access to heavy armor like Plate Mail then the GM does need to make the disadvantages to wearing it come into play. It can mean extra book keeping, which no one enjoys, but otherwise it can be over powerful. What we should be trying to do is find ways of making the book keeping part of of wearing the armor simpler but still realistic. 

 

Off the top of my head, some options:

 

 

 

 

There is also the social complication that might arise from warriors wearing heavy armour within the borders of foreign powers. It might well be seen as declaring an Act of War. This was a huge thing in the various Bushido campaigns that I've played over the years, and could easily be a thing for pseudo-European settings.

 

Also, the odd sea-faring scenario thrown in should mean you wear light armours at best. 

[theinfn8]

On 11/7/2022 at 4:53 AM, pawsplay said:

I've won real-ish armor, and I think the greatest danger you would face in medieval combat was cooking alive like a Hot Pocket from your own body heat after 10-15 minutes of heavy combat.

 

Oh man, so true. Fighting in mid summer SoCal heat required constant water intake. You basically sweat out everything you take in. I would imagine fighting in a long pitched battle all day would be horrendous.

[GDShore]

I have played RPG style games since the late sixties, first with chainmail, then D&D and then Hero system in the eighties. I also played E.P.T. (Empire of the Petal Throne) and C&S (Chivalry and Sorcery) as well as a number of other game systems. I have Always been somewhat unhappy with the presentation of weapons and combat in most systems. I am an archer, been so since I was six, in my teens was involved in experiments with a variety of bows and crossbows. Most systems rating of light, medium and heavy bows completely miss s the mark (pun intended) Two bows of differing style (longbow vs recurve) of the same poundage will in fact have different penetration. The experiments presented some unusual results, using a 90 lb. compound and simple iron bodkin tipped wooden shafted arrows against 10 and 12 gauge plate no penetration and virtually no scratch. Against 14 to 16 gauge plate gouge on the 14, denting on the 16, heavy denting against 18 gauge, and against20 gauge deep dent and splitting of the metal. 

   I personally shoot a 55 - 60 lb. recurve and a 45 - 50 lb. longbow - horse bow. With my 55 lb. bow and the iron bodkins I only dented the 18 and 20 gauge plates and only scratched some of the others. However with high carbon steel and heat treated bodkins my 55 lb. recurve penetrated the 16 gauge plate and gouged all of the Heavier, a friend with a 60 lb. draw Yumi style bow (Japanese asymmetrical) penetrated the 14 gauge .5 to 1.5 inch, on the 16 g average of 2 inch 3 - 4 on the 18 g  and treated 20 gauge as though it was tissue paper. Now, admittedly none of the plates was hardened and range was 50 meters the 90 lb. compound penetrated all of the plates, As for other weapons and penetration, swords are mostly ineffective against simple plate armor let alone something like Gothic or Maxmillian plate. You need to go to axes, hammer's and maces to achieve damage to a plate wearer and then it is mostly hydro-static damage. 

    I am about to start a new campaign, and will be recording on duplicate character sheets damage to their weapons, armor and sundries as well as bonus damage to opposing targets based on maneuver's  weapon type , pushed strength and other factors, letting them know as their equipage deteriorates. As GM it is your job to maintain playability and introduce as much reality as you can. Have you ever fired a bow down a corridor  that's 10 ft. by 10 ft. I have, beyond 8 to 10 meters nearly impossible, (corridor was actually 8 ft. wide and 10 ft. high) . Beyond 10 meters arrows kept bouncing off the roof, and finding a path thru cardboard figures in front of you problematic.  

[Scott Ruggels]

I would be interested in hearing the results of your efforts. So does nightly maintenance reduce damage, or does one have to go to medium or larger towns to find competent smiths to perform repairs and have to pay them?

[GDShore]

     Repairs to armor in the field will be hard but not impossible, in fact light repairs should be possible by any who wears it. If he cannot, he should not be wearing same. For repairs like straps, buckles, and popped rivets simple tools are all that's needed -- leather, buckles, rivets, a good sharp knife, a punch and a good mallet. 

     This Mr. Ruggles is a partial answer to your question, and I apologize for the late reply I have been down with flu for two weeks. Stopping for a couple of days would allow for greater repairs on leather armors. For metal armor (chain excepted) you will need a smithy to effect repairs and that only needs a village smith. With chain, carrying extra links and a pliers to knit up minor tears and rents. For plate damage a major smithy will be required to repair. Even a small dent can be excruciating to wear although an armorer friend of mine said that a good suit of plate was easier to wear than to carry. He built a suit of plate that was so well articulated he could drive a firebird while wearing it. He lived in Calgary his girlfriend in Lethbridge about two hours south. (200 - 220 km.) The thing is ,, plate is expensive. I know a set of twins who bought suits of plate to order, that were $3000 apiece, during the medieval period a suit of plate could easily cost the output of a large villages production for a year. 

      I belong to a recreation group called the S.C.A. and most of those that fight sword and board (shield) wear cuir-bouilli (boiled leather) 9 - 12 ounce. I have taken part in more than a Hundred battles as an archer using a light bow (max 30 lb. draw - 12.5 kg draw) using wooden arrows with bird blunt style heads. (.75 inch diameter) It was in doing this that I realized how badly most systems dealt with missile weapons. From range to damage to accuracy they are universally underrated. I also found even in a hobby that money talks, plate was only used by those with deep pockets, chain and plate less expensive, straight chain even less and finally those on a tight budget leather only. AS for wearing it, I have seen persons put on their armor at 9:00 AM and not take it off until 5:00 PM, although you would want to be upwind of them. Admitted I live in Canada, Alberta actually and we do not get as hot as SoCal.

[theinfn8]

The vast majority of SCA guys I have run into were in metal, but with weight saving adjustments you wouldn't find available in period (typically aluminum, but leather covered plastic popped up every now and then). Actually, my current legs are an old aluminim set gifted to me from one such person after bringing a mercenary force to bolster their force in a local crown war. Most of them were dual kitting for Adrian Empire and SCA and Adria's armour requirements kind of favour all metal.

 

And you're right about cost. The price of the metal also wasn't the only limiting factor. Size of plates was as well. The technology for creating large plates with a consistent thickness was... new, depending on the time period. And hand working metal into shape can thin the armour in spots creating weaknesses. This is one of the reasons a "plate of coats" was pretty common up to a point. Cheaper with less chance of thin spots. You would pay good money for a smith/armourer that could work the metal without those imperfections.

 

My experience with pure leather armours are... limited (again, rules that favour the wear of metal). But my "field repair kit" is a couple hammers, a handful of rivets (various sizes), a metal punch, a leather punch, buckles, and leather straps. If I'm wearing mail I also grab a pair of pliers and a small section of chain I can steal rings from. The strapping tends to get the brunt of the wear and cracks or breaks in plates basically mean that piece is done, it needs to be replaced completely (welding a plate back together is never as good as the original). Dents are kind of normal and a light touch with a hammer will fix most issues. But it all adds up weight-wise. The kit is probably close to the 25 lbs range. In game terms, that's less treasure weight or more burden for LTE.

 

Unfortunately, I have little time for fighting anymore.

[Beast]

On 11/7/2022 at 7:27 AM, MrAgdesh said:

Re: the OP question as to whether or not bows should do less damage (for the Jolrhos Player's Guide specifically) 

 

A Very Heavy longbow does 2d6+1 and has an 18 STR min. That, on average, will bounce from full plate armour's DEF of 8. An above average damage roll (or crit) I assume has just hit at "the right angle" to penetrate. 

 

There won't be many of the populace with 18 STR though so the majority of longbowmen you face are likely to be light to medium bow users; 1d6 - 1 1/2d6, meaning that only the medium bowmen can squeeze 1 pip of BODY through on full plate if they roll maximum damage (or a critical).

 

 

To me, the damage therefore seems about right?

 

 

(I'm a big fan of the optional Bows vs Crossbows rules too; HSEG: Pg 32)

work smarter not harder
use armor piercing bolts or arrowheads or go to crew served weapons like balista

 

[MrAgdesh]

9 hours ago, Beast said:

work smarter not harder
use armor piercing bolts or arrowheads or go to crew served weapons like balista

 

There's some evidence to suggest that steel arrow heads were preferred;

 

 

 

Although, even if steel heads were successfully commissioned by various English nobles, the penetrative capabilities of such were perhaps only slightly greater? (7:40 into the video).

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

use armor piercing bolts or arrowheads or go to crew served weapons like balista

 

By their shape, use, and to me common sense, most arrowheads are armor piercing by design: they apply all their force on a very small sharpened point.  But if you do that, then plate armor has to be absurdly heavy or innately hardened (which seems odd) in order to protect the way modern testing shows.

[Beast]

13 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

By their shape, use, and to me common sense, most arrowheads are armor piercing by design: they apply all their force on a very small sharpened point.  But if you do that, then plate armor has to be absurdly heavy or innately hardened (which seems odd) in order to protect the way modern testing shows.

you have never seen a broadhead arrow?
there are many types of arrow heads
hunting arrows are made to do the most damage to make the game animal bleed out quickly and not to move to far from the hunter
and as time has shown that there has always been a competion between weapons and armor where 1 tries to out do the other(look at tanks and warships vs various weapon systems over time)
watch the video above that  MrAgdesh posted
it even talks about military and game projectiles

[Beast]

On 11/7/2022 at 7:27 AM, MrAgdesh said:

Re: the OP question as to whether or not bows should do less damage (for the Jolrhos Player's Guide specifically) 

 

A Very Heavy longbow does 2d6+1 and has an 18 STR min. That, on average, will bounce from full plate armour's DEF of 8. An above average damage roll (or crit) I assume has just hit at "the right angle" to penetrate. 

 

There won't be many of the populace with 18 STR though so the majority of longbowmen you face are likely to be light to medium bow users; 1d6 - 1 1/2d6, meaning that only the medium bowmen can squeeze 1 pip of BODY through on full plate if they roll maximum damage (or a critical).

 

 

To me, the damage therefore seems about right?

 

 

(I'm a big fan of the optional Bows vs Crossbows rules too; HSEG: Pg 32)

remember that this kind of armor does not cover everything perfectly, and there is an activation
so even a 14- will fail in time(the MacBeth and Adora sword and shield fight where won by strikes that got past the armor
the same is true vs arrows, enough tries and the armor will be bypassed or defeated

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

you have never seen a broadhead arrow?
there are many types of arrow heads

 

While I agree that there are a lot of different kinds of arrows, they all nearly all built to strike as hard as possible on a very small point.  Some (like bird arrows) don't have this feature, but to me that makes them a special sort of alternate arrow, not the default design.

[Beast]

1 minute ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

While I agree that there are a lot of different kinds of arrows, they all nearly all built to strike as hard as possible on a very small point.  Some (like bird arrows) don't have this feature, but to me that makes them a special sort of alternate arrow, not the default design.

what gets done more, hunting for food or actual battle?

especially an army in the field
Hunting heads are the norm as AP arrowheads are more difficult to produce(hardening the metal, dry shafts, etc....)