Is Armor Properly Designed in Fantasy Games?

[DentArthurDent]

GDShore,

 

I am extremely interested in your personal experience with armor. I’ve only fought a few times at SCA practices but it was a wonderful experience. Age and Time kept me from going to more events.

 

I am very interested in a maximum level of simulated realism. No, I wouldn’t run a game with these MaxReal rules but it would be nice to know what we should be aiming for. So, what would it take to simulate two opponents in chain mail, sword and board, fighting? Specifically, for this posting, how would the armor be simulated?

[Ninja-Bear]

12 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Very well made armor, the highest quality stuff doesn't make as much noise but that stuff costs as much as a house, and like GDShore said, you have a squire help you dress and it takes a long time.  And even that stuff makes noise to move in, its impossible to avoid this side of magic.  But its not just armor, its a lot of other stuff; discussions, the light sources, the smell of cooking food, etc.

 

A few simple things can simulate this (just common sense with light, scent etc) and I think using the END/phase cost as a positive PER bonus to be heard coming.  Yeah that pack can carry all the camping equipment but you sound like a percussion section in the orchestra walking through a mine.

 

There are a lot of aspects like this that aren't considered much in old school dungeoneering, like horses.  You cannot just park them outside the yawning entrance to an ancient ruin and go in and forget.  They need food, they're going to be prey to everything that hunts in the forest, or wander off looking for food and join another herd of horses, or get stolen, etc.  Horses aren't meat motorcycles.

That’s why you hire retainers. 😁Lest that’s what the OSR blogs suggest they always did.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah, that was a part of the DMG for original AD&D that was pretty well ignored by everyone: hirelings, henchmen, etc.  People who guard your stuff, carry things, help you get your armor on etc.  Not followers, in Hero terms, just people paid to help you out.  Which is a realistic, reasonable, and interesting part of the story that is in older fantasy books and pulp novels, but has kind of vanished over time as people assume modern conventions and conveniences.

 

And it feels "oppressive" to hire people to carry baggage to modern readers.

[Scott Ruggels]

19 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

 

And it feels "oppressive" to hire people to carry baggage to modern readers.

Which is why I don’t game with modern soyboys. 
 

Very much enjoying the European OSR rules, Dungeon Slayers. The GM got sick and tired of D&D 5e’s fluffiness. The old timers and vets agreed, so we switched. 
 

Now I wish there was a Champions Begins product for FH. But that would be hard, as few can agree on how fantasy works. 
 

 

 

[Scott Ruggels]

On 12/19/2022 at 7:53 PM, DentArthurDent said:

GDShore,

 

I am extremely interested in your personal experience with armor. I’ve only fought a few times at SCA practices but it was a wonderful experience. Age and Time kept me from going to more events.

 

I am very interested in a maximum level of simulated realism. No, I wouldn’t run a game with these MaxReal rules but it would be nice to know what we should be aiming for. So, what would it take to simulate two opponents in chain mail, sword and board, fighting? Specifically, for this posting, how would the armor be simulated?

As am I.   The problem though, is the more rolls one makes, the slower combat takes, for a system already known for “leisurely paced combat resolution. That was why the old “find weakness” as a one time roll, of Armor Piercing’s half the Resistant Defense worked. Easy to apply and easy to remember. Activation rolls slowed things down. Slow combat is not to everyone’s taste, and keeping a group above 4 people’s interest becomes harder. 
 

however, high realism would work well for play by post (post meaning posted on a message board or Discord Channel). Lots of room for descriptions, and time for rolls. 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

Now I wish there was a Champions Begins product for FH. But that would be hard, as few can agree on how fantasy works

 

I have an idea for one for my campaign but yeah, its tougher to do a universal one for Fantasy 

[Asperion]

On 12/20/2022 at 9:24 AM, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

 

And it feels "oppressive" to hire people to carry baggage to modern readers.

The only thing that has changed over time is the nature of who is doing the moving.  In the past it was wagon trains that would transport those supplies around,  now it's professional moving companies.  Those trains followed the military as they traveled and took their pay in the form of housing,  food,  protection,  straight pay,  and other forms.  Moving companies today are strictly paid a flat rate for their efforts.  When they get the person (or what they are paid for) they will leave until they obtain a new contract.  In more remote locations,  the personnel might actually be required to move themselves. 

[GDShore]

DentArthueDent -- With apologies for the late reply. I joined the SCA in 1980,  and have for various reasons worn the following, soft leather, (remarkably effective against bird blunt style arrows from a 30# bow) wax boiled Vegetable tanned leather 8 to 12 ounce leather, (absorbs impact blows extremely well, against missiles with just field points 20/30 meter penetration occurred every time at 30# draw with a 60# draw at 50 meter penetration was to the fletching) chain mail - Hauberk and leggings and camail, ( head to ankles, no feet I have small feet, unless the links are very small welded or riveted, and barred, missile strikes from bows 40# draw or heavier at 40 meter punch thru as though it was paper, against thrusts and stabs at best partial defence, reasonable defence against chops and slashes) chain and plate, (this is a chain base to which plates are attached, I have only worn one piece a hauberk, split down the back from neck to about 4" from the bottom. There were shoulder pauldrons, elbows and vambraces linked together with leather straps that were attached to the arms, at the wrists and just below the elbow. The back seam is cased with chap weight leather about three inch's in from the seam, six rings are sewn near the inner edge of the leather this is so that the back can be laced tight. It weighs probably 4 times what my chain hauberk does. Stands well vs, missiles on the plates unless the bows are heavy war bows, 90# and heavier, although crossbows with all steel quarrels will punch through. Takes an assist to put it on, and at least five minutes, my hauberk takes less than a minute ). There are three types of plate if stretched four, basic or simple plate, Gothic, Maximillian tourney/joust. 

     I have worn basic/simple plate, twice, it's hell to put on although to be honest it was to big for me and was for a woman. A two person three if you count me job to put on over chain. It took twenty minutes to put on. The front part of the clam shell is slightly dished the back curved only at the sides straps and buckles connect the sides, and hinged plates lighter than the chest plate connect the front to the back. There are gaps in a lot of places, at the neck a scoop down to below the clavicle, albeit covered by a gorget, a gap just before the arms, under the arms and a gap 2 to 3 inch's  wide down the center of the underarm, at the waist there is a gap about 2 inch's wide protected by chain. The legs are connected to leather waist harness, and are the easiest to put on, the front of the leg is well protected, but the back is wide open. the sabots were the hardest to put on. (sabot is a boot cover) Finally the helmet is almost always open faced.  Gothic and Maximillian plate are way more refined, and I have never been able to wear either. They both have a lamellar skirt that covers the waist and hips, the arm gaps are gone and the gorget is more comfortable. The final type of plate, is tourney/joust armor. The helmet is a closed faced or visored the eye slits are extremely small. In the last versions of this armor they were either Gothic - Maximillian the primary differences were the lamellar skirt and helmet. The joust form has a lamellar fall down the upper legs, the G-M's helmet is usually visored with breathing holes and hearing holes punched thru the steel. Basic plate weighs about 35 to 42 lbs. while G-M can weigh as much as 29 lbs. more. 

     Today my combat is behind me, I will not see the shy side of 70 ever again. 

     

[GDShore]

I see I made a mistake on the plate armor weight, it should be 35 to 42 kgs. with G-M being another 10 to 15 kilo more, joust armor is even more massive and can be 85 to 90 kilos. The helmet is heavier because it is thicker, and there is a new piece of armor added, the bevor which is a gorget on steroids. It swoops down to the sternum in front and about half that distance down the back, but it is the neck protection that has major change. It is thicker, and up front rises to cover the lower face, A lance striking the Bevor is more likely to break than is the neck it protects.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Cast iron is typically heavier than steel (although some steel alloys are really dense) so fantasy armor might be even heavier depending on how advanced metallurgy is and how common steel forging is.

[GDShore]

It depends on where and when things are forged, for instance, Levant Damascus has never been duplicated, weapons created during the period 700 CE to 900-950 CE were sharper more flexible and durable than those built anywhere else. (they used a formula for creating steel that has never been duplicated since, except the Norse smiths that created may have been in contact with the levant towards the end of the Levant smiths time) The Ulfberht swords of the Norse had the same Damascene look as the Levant, not as flexible but as sharp, hard and durable. The Gothic and Maximillian plate armors were all steel not cast or wrought iron, 16th century.  Crucible steel was usually a small batch cottage industry, known in the west from roman times and in the orient from 800 and earlier BCE. Steel is generally harder and stronger than cast or wrought iron, this is due in large part to the formulae used to create that steel.  The Levant weapons commanded much higher prices (5 to 20 times) than their competitors. I do not remember and can not find citation for when large batch crucible steel manufacture began. 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah steel was discovered and worked on far earlier than what was once believed; Vikings were creating damascus steel very early for weapons.  Not typically armor, as its much harder to work damascus in large plates, but yeah steel at times.  It comes down to what you want to do with your campaign -- if I were to do a new campaign these days I'd start it like 5000 BC and have bronze and rarely iron.

[GDShore]

I am preparing  a new campaign am about halfway there. I intend it to be an old culture, with a LOT of magic, which in the main will do the same types of jobs as technology in our world. So how will I limit things like steel armor, by making armor and other things extremely expensive, and money scarce. The problem with bronze weapons is facing 'Dragons' bronze weapons just would not be effective against them. You are right about working damascus in large plates however high carbon steel is easier to work. Still have to create the large plates of steel.

[theinfn8]

On 12/20/2022 at 12:52 AM, GDShore said:

Interesting "theinfn8" , first you have to pack extra cloth to wrap each piece in, then you need a bag to put the pieces in, then you need to sling that bag onto your back remember it weighs about 40 kilo's. Now we can reduce the bag weight by a little, the helmet you will likely wear, (4 kg) gauntlets, (3 kg) greaves, (4 kg) total = 11 kg. the bag now weighs 29 kg's. 

Course you just dump it and be rid of that extra weight but wait, it is worth a small fortune. As for putting it on just before combat, it takes the assistance of two who know what they are doing approximately 15 minutes to put plate on, longer if it is Gothic or Maximillian Plate. I suppose one of the mages might have a summon invisible servant to assist you, the average run time of combats in most of my games is 30 to 60 seconds. SOO about the time you get you legs on and settled the battle is over one way or the other. 

 

I beg to differ on some of your numbers. If I am already armoured up in chain, I can be up and running with the rest of the armour in 5 minutes, on my own. Less if I am already wearing the legs and gorget, which I might as well be. If I need to throw the chain on, add another 2 minutes (max) to roll out my chainmail log and slip it on over my head. Still all by my lonesome. Yes, having someone to help can speed it up, but we're talking foot level combat armour, not cast iron jousting in a tournament, I never have to walk on my own, armour. Armour that I have seen people sprint in, jump, roll, do pushups, and otherwise be remarkably nimble with. And I'm not saying that you open the door, combat starts, and you start putting your armour on. Only an idiot would think that makes sense. I'm saying, that an observant individual could see that there's a fortified location ahead that will require heavier armour, or that the smattering of dead bodies or bones we just came across would seem to indicate a particularly perilous creature nearby.

 

As for the cloth to wrap your armour in, absolutely you would have/want that. In fact, anyone with carbon steel armour is a freaking fool not to have it. After you use your armour you lightly oil it and wrap it in cloth to put it away. It prevents rust and the cloth becomes slowly impregnated with the oil from repeated use, adding yet another layer of rust protection and it makes it all quieter and easier to carry. Take a little extra time and you can stash it all in a moderately sized hiking backpack (the breast and back plate give you a nice cavity to fold the arms and legs into, and your chainmail roll, probably the single most heavy item beyond the helm at like... 30 lbs?, could be attached like a bedroll. Why remove your helm? There's no metal on your body left for it to scrape on and make noise, so you might as well protect your true moneymaker. Worn as a backpack, sure, all that might still impede you, but it would be a hell of a lot quieter than wearing it. You could drop the whole she-bang in a couple seconds to fight without the extra weight if desired. Or, let your afore mentioned assistants carry the bag. If all the metal in my kit weighed 88 lbs, particularly without the helm, I would be very surprised. But, I can't argue the reduced number at 29kg might not be realistic, especially since, as you say, I paid a small fortune for quality armour which is lighter than stainless or normal steel.

[mallet]

I know this will come across as a bit of a "cop out" answer, and it is one that I often dislike myself, but in this case it might be useful/accurate. 

 

The fact of the matter is that almost all fantasy settings are developmentally impaired. By that I mean almost all of these settings "current" civilization is 5,000 - 10,000 years old, but technology has stalled out at a pre-gunpowder level. They have never moved on to guns, or to steam power or to electricity or the combustion engine (yes, some fantasy setting use some of these features, but most do not,  even those that do usually have an extended period where the technology didn't exist). 

 

Take Amberthal as an example, they have over 5000 years of recorded history, with civilizations, cities, castles, temples, trained horses, weapons, armors, magic, currency, etc... yet in those 5000+ years they never got beyond swords, bows & armor. Doesn't matter why, that's just how it is. Same for tons of other fantasy settings. 

 

But just because they didn't move beyond that level of technology doesn't mean they never improved on it beyond what we did in our history. In our history they stopped working on it once guns came along. But in a fantasy setting they have/had another 3000+ years for the blacksmiths to come up with and improve arrows, swords and armor. 

 

In a fantasy setting maybe what they call a standard arrow is vastly superior to what a standard arrow was/is to us. Maybe they found new alloys to make the arrow head out of? Or different forging techniques. Maybe they have different designs or the arrow heads is actually forged in different pieces, then assembled. So that it pierces armor then expands or the parts behind it shatters (a "hollow point" arrow if you will) but to them it is just an arrow. 

 

Same with plate mail armor. They've had an extra 3000+ years to improve on the design beyond what we ever did. Maybe they use cloth and leather in a way inside the armor to make it comfortable to wear all day? Maybe there are more hidden vents to keep it cool? Maybe the padding and articulation they added means that it can move quite silently. And quick attach and release clips and straps to make getting in and out of heavy armor a lot quicker and easier then anything we ever came up with, because we stopped trying, but they had no choice but to keep working on it. 

 

Same for the costs. The longer a technology has been around, the more people know how to quickly and efficiently build it, the costs goes down. So after 3000+ years, maybe a set of plate armor doesn't cost the same as what a village makes in a year. 

 

I guess the point is if we are going to try and add more realism to the armor and weapons of a setting, then we should also be factoring in how much more time (thousands of years) that the people making the weapons and armor have had to improve on it beyond what we ever did as a civilization.

 

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

I guess the point is if we are going to try and add more realism to the armor and weapons of a setting, then we should also be factoring in how much more time (thousands of years) that the people making the weapons and armor have had to improve on it beyond what we ever did as a civilization.

 

There is something to that (and its partly why there are other sorts of armor construction like dragonscale etc) but its difficult to argue what is realistic and what is not about a speculative setting.  What would have happened to armor if gunpowder had not been worked out?  Who knows?  There are physical limitations to what can be achieved with metal and leather etc, but its guesswork how they'd have been used and adapted.  

And there is no real world setting or context where we're doing it either; almost all new armor is made of newer materials not available in the past.  Almost all new developments would in my opinion be along the lines of enchantment and special fantasy materials rather than superior technology for the same reason gunpowder etc never was developed: magic.

 

Your post brings up another thought though, which is probably worth a different post: don't make your campaign setting 50,000 years old.  All that does is bring up questions and problems you don't want to mess with.

[mallet]

46 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

but its difficult to argue what is realistic and what is not about a speculative setting.  What would have happened to armor if gunpowder had not been worked out?  Who knows?  There are physical limitations to what can be achieved with metal and leather etc, but its guesswork how they'd have been used and adapted.  
 

 

 

I'm not saying we need to get into any detail as to why the numbers (damage, def. etc...) for weapons and armor set at what they are (realistic to us or not) just that we can say that "this is the level of development they have reached with weapons and armor". So arrows do do 1d6 or more vs plate armor. Plate armor, or mail, or whatever, does have this much Def and weighs this much. 

 

It might not be exactly how our historic and understood versions of armor and weapons work vs each other, it is just that in "this" setting they have had the time to innovate and get them to this point (RAW stats). In another 1000+ years in the fantasy world, maybe those RAW stats will have changed because of developments, but for now this is where the game setting is at. 

[GDShore]

Well reasoned theinf8, if you are wearing chain when attacked its because you were on guard duty, you can not actually sleep in for very long. Sleeping in  chain will create bruising, chafing and open sores, not all at once of course, but over the course of a couple of weeks to a month. Sleeping in plate is worse, you risk joint damage and deep bruising down to the bone.  We can discuss chain armor if you'd like, the better the quality the more rigid it will be,  riveted, welded or barred, the more rigid the harder to sleep in. There are however solutions and these also answer some of what is posed by mallet. In my new campaign magic takes the place of technology as for stagnation / innovation, we have some extreme examples of humanity not taking an innovative leap to the next step.  China had gunpowder for at least 800 years and never developed the gun (yes to a degree they had canon very primitive canon) it remained an entertainment. The Aztecs, Mayan's and Incan's all knew about the wheel but never used it for anything but toys. 

     Some of the solutions, that gamers came up with on their own, an Amulet with "instant change" charges on it allowing the user to instantly be armored just as combat started, solving sleeping in it, armoring in the middle of combat or having to carry it around. ( within 3 sessions everyone who wore armor either had one or was clamoring for one after one of my players introduced it one night) I postulate that in a society where magic is abundant technology dies on the vine. I am not the first to so postulate such probably not even the third or fourth. (David Weber's Hellsgate series posits two cultures clashing, one magic driven and one technological with psionics. Back to the Amulet for a moment, I required that while it was active it glowed and hummed. 

     A fortified camping area is always a good idea. My gaming group solved the problem of safe camping. (the group was usually 9 strong, 5 of which were GM's, 1 - E.P.T., 2 - D&D, 1 Gurps, and 1 running a Justice Inc.) They began stopping in game hours before sundown and becoming Roman Legionnaires and building a fortified camp, again magic had a great deal to do with fortifying the camp. In the morning they would just decamp and move on. So magic would have replaced a lot of what we use tech. for today, so they probably would have developed Elvanium, and Unobtainium alloys as time passed. Thus rendering as moot the whole of the debate on how real or close to real we should run armor vs weapons  based on the middle ages statistics and qualities. Thank you mallet, that clears some very fuzzy thinking on my part. Again thank you.

[theinfn8]

As far as stagnation of tech, a lot of settings are rise and fall epochs. The tech is developed (including magic as a tech) and then there's a fall with a dark age and the tech is lost. Usually it is because of something (someone) stupid with magic. In that type of setting it's not an issue of technological stagnation, but of academic loss. The presence of magic isn't even necessary for this cycle, as witnessed by our own world and civilizations.

[GDShore]

That is certainly true, the history of our species is littered with stupid and worse those who thought they were smarter than they really were. We also can create blind spots so dense that we refuse to accept the new just cause it's new. 

[Christopher R Taylor]

The biggest civilizational collapses were caused by either such levels of corruption and perversion the state collapsed in on its self (or was conquered by another nation), or disease and other catastrophes crushed innovation and caused things to roll backward.  We're probably watching one of those collapses happen to our civilization right now as we watch.  Its extremely difficult, based on human history, for any civilization to continue to prosper and advance for very long at all.

[theinfn8]

On 12/28/2022 at 9:44 PM, Christopher R Taylor said:

The biggest civilizational collapses were caused by either such levels of corruption and perversion the state collapsed in on its self (or was conquered by another nation), or disease and other catastrophes crushed innovation and caused things to roll backward.  We're probably watching one of those collapses happen to our civilization right now as we watch.  Its extremely difficult, based on human history, for any civilization to continue to prosper and advance for very long at all.

 

Oh, how sadly true.

 

Oddly, these falls do tend to see a lot of military build up and warring, so the tech, and armour (see how I brought it back around? ) both tend to develop quickly right before. With magic, you could make perfectly shaped bullets, rifling, and "black powder" relatively easily. But there's also no reason they couldn't build the magical equivalent of kevlar. I'm kind of picturing nano-forges powered by nano-golems...

[GDShore]

 That's certainly one way to go, how about taking a sheet oh 5 cm. thick armor plate and compressing it down to 5 mm. with the weight of 5 mm. The protection of 5 cm. of armor, at the weight of 5 mm. Then of course, someone will come along and develop a sword with the heat of the sub to punch a hole through your armor nah, somebody already did that, Star Wars lightsabers. Just because it looks like medieval plate, doesn't mean you made it from the same stuff. The possibilities are endless!

[Khymeria]

On 12/21/2022 at 3:53 AM, Scott Ruggels said:

 

Now I wish there was a Champions Begins product for FH. But that would be hard, as few can agree on how fantasy works. 
 

Now that Gaslight: Horror and Heroics in the Victorian Era is done, my group and I have been steadfastly playtesting this with some more packaged ideas, slimmed down rules set, and a faster paced, still deadly, but with a nod to what you wished D&D actually was. What should stay, what should go, what is best moved to optional. Hammering out the little things, like a cavalier who takes wealth and buys plate mail is way out of the typical fantasy guidelines on resistant defenses but this is a fantasy staple character. I am also producing a half-dozen Book of Lairs style fantasy short adventure to drum up interest. 

 

 

 

[theinfn8]

21 hours ago, GDShore said:

 That's certainly one way to go, how about taking a sheet oh 5 cm. thick armor plate and compressing it down to 5 mm. with the weight of 5 mm. The protection of 5 cm. of armor, at the weight of 5 mm. Then of course, someone will come along and develop a sword with the heat of the sub to punch a hole through your armor nah, somebody already did that, Star Wars lightsabers. Just because it looks like medieval plate, doesn't mean you made it from the same stuff. The possibilities are endless!

 

Suppose the limit is really what magic is capable of in the world. And since a lot of magic users are also envisioned as scientists of a sort, they may reach some of the scientific levels that we operate in the modern era. What good is armour when you unleash those nano-golems to tear it apart at a micro level?

 

You bring up a good point, one that is brought up in Hammer's Slammers, every time there is an increase in armour tech (in their case armor tech), there's a commensurate increase in weapon tech.