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Brainstorming: Simplified Champions


Pariah

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As a high school teacher, I have just agreed to be the faculty advisor the my school's D&D Club. Mainly, that means they'll be meeting in my room, and I'll be making sure they don't set the place on fire.

 

Unofficially, it means that I'll have a semi-captive audience to introduce to the wonders of the Hero System. :eg: 

 

Now, I don't want to freak them out with the (alleged) complexity of the game. And honestly, I haven't GMed or played for about a decade, so I want to keep it simple for me, too. So here are some of my thoughts going in:

 

  1. I'm planning to use an earlier edition of the game, probably 3rd (but maybe 4th).
  2. I'm looking at a simplified character sheet, something like what was created for Champions Begins. Specifically, I'm looking at a character sheet that shows the powers, stats, maneuvers, etc. without the character points.
  3. I'm looking seriously at ignoring END, at least at first. 
  4. I'm looking at reducing the Disads / Complication to 75 points or so. (This is the one thing I'll for sure use from 6th Ed.)
  5. I'll start with pre-generated characters (Starburst, Crusader, Seeker, Defender, Solitaire, etc.) and then work with players individually when they want something more customized.
  6. I'm considering using the Two Statements from Champions Now to set the tone for the campaign.

 

Thoughts? Suggestions? Recommendations? 

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4 hours ago, Pariah said:

As a high school teacher, I have just agreed to be the faculty advisor the my school's D&D Club. Mainly, that means they'll be meeting in my room, and I'll be making sure they don't set the place on fire.

 

Unofficially, it means that I'll have a semi-captive audience to introduce to the wonders of the Hero System. :eg: 

 

Now, I don't want to freak them out with the (alleged) complexity of the game. And honestly, I haven't GMed or played for about a decade, so I want to keep it simple for me, too. So here are some of my thoughts going in:

 

  1. I'm planning to use an earlier edition of the game, probably 3rd (but maybe 4th).

Any edition could work if boiled down to the bair bones.

4 hours ago, Pariah said:
  1. I'm looking at a simplified character sheet, something like what was created for Champions Begins. Specifically, I'm looking at a character sheet that shows the powers, stats, maneuvers, etc. without the character points.

Nobody says they have to know how much things cost, till they get tired of playing someone's idea of a superhero and want to play there own idea 

4 hours ago, Pariah said:
  1. I'm looking seriously at ignoring END, at least at first. 

If I remember correctly, they suggested that new Players/GM ignore END.

4 hours ago, Pariah said:
  1. I'm looking at reducing the Disads / Complication to 75 points or so. (This is the one thing I'll for sure use from 6th Ed.)

Doable. 

4 hours ago, Pariah said:
  1. I'll start with pre-generated characters (Starburst, Crusader, Seeker, Defender, Solitaire, etc.) and then work with players individually when they want something more customized.

Well, that is what Oregon characters are there for...

4 hours ago, Pariah said:
  1. I'm considering using the Two Statements from Champions Now to set the tone for the campaign.

 

Thoughts? Suggestions? Recommendations? 

If you can describe the campaign in two statements (sentences), the more power to you.

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6 hours ago, Pariah said:

 

 

  1. I'm planning to use an earlier edition of the game, probably 3rd (but maybe 4th).
  2. I'm looking at a simplified character sheet, something like what was created for Champions Begins. Specifically, I'm looking at a character sheet that shows the powers, stats, maneuvers, etc. without the character points.
  3. I'm looking seriously at ignoring END, at least at first. 
  4. I'm looking at reducing the Disads / Complication to 75 points or so. (This is the one thing I'll for sure use from 6th Ed.)
  5. I'll start with pre-generated characters (Starburst, Crusader, Seeker, Defender, Solitaire, etc.) and then work with players individually when they want something more customized.
  6. I'm considering using the Two Statements from Champions Now to set the tone for the campaign.

 

Thoughts? Suggestions? Recommendations? 


I would follow Duke’s method, and go back to 2nd Edition. It’s simple, but cost adjusted from 1st edition. He has been GMing for a youth group for a fairly long time. He’s been quite successful. 

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2nd/3rd is neither here nor there. The difference is mainly in layout quality.

 

If you want to have a maximum of 75 points of Disads, use a 150 point base. That will give you 225 point characters - the recommended total for 2nd. Otherwise carry on with whatever edition you want. The character build guidelines for 2e and 3e were identical except for the extra 25 points worth of "whatever".

 

The two statements were intended as a starting point for an interaction between the GM and the players. This won't happen if you use pregens, but you could still use them for a minimalist setting.

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Only allow normal damage, get rid of the speed chart (everyone has the same speed), don't use END, don't allow held phases, no combined or multiple attacks, and disallow power frameworks.  That's 90% of the complexity right there.  Its a much less rich and smaller game, but it is quicker and easier.

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I agree with CRT, at least for starters.  Some things, especially tactics, can come later.

 

My big issue with going all the way back to 3rd is the funky way non-combat movement's computed.  The skill selection's kinda sparse too, and horribly expensive.  Might at least tweak the costs.  Plus, I really dislike figured characteristics.

 

But to avoid that, you gotta go to 6th...at which point, you're looking at stripping a LOT out.  Many, if not most, limitations, all the complex advantages (charges, most UOO, damage over time), numerous powers.

 

So that might be even more of a PITA....

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I'm working on my own version of Champions Lite based on 6e. So far, I've pared down the skill list, removed Adjustment and Mental Powers (as well as Change Environment and Transform), and only used the simpler power modifiers. I kept the Speed Chart and Killing Attacks because (IMHO) they are integral to the system.

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On 9/1/2022 at 2:43 PM, Pariah said:

Thoughts? Suggestions? Recommendations? 

A couple ideas for your consideration when I adapted Hero System to be simpler in order to attract new players:

 

1) Spell out all of the acronyms when possible.

 

2) I organized the OCV and related offense powers/attacks under "Offense" and DCV and related defense under "Defense," followed by Skills & Abilities. For defenses, the number in parenthesis reflects resistant defense. The brackets indicate endurance cost that could be omitted as you had alluded to earlier.

 

Below is an example of the finished product for your consideration:

image.thumb.png.b6beabd37816794f1b5e53fbcda7ec88.png

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The thing that concerns me about going back to 2e or 3e is that if these high school kids end up really liking the system I hate to have them find out that they were playing a game that came out before their parents were born and having to adjust to something multiple iterations newer.

 

Take a look at Champions Begins.  It does a great job of gradually adding complexity but is using the current core system.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 9/5/2022 at 5:52 PM, assault said:

If they are already playing (modern) D&D, they are already playing a game more complex than Hero.

The only issues are the learning curve and any nonsense they've picked up from the net.

 

On 9/9/2022 at 12:55 PM, Jhamin said:

The thing that concerns me about going back to 2e or 3e is that if these high school kids end up really liking the system I hate to have them find out that they were playing a game that came out before their parents were born and having to adjust to something multiple iterations newer.

 

Take a look at Champions Begins.  It does a great job of gradually adding complexity but is using the current core system.

 

We had the first meeting of the school's D&D Club today, and most of the time was spent in character creation. And yeah, it's a LOT more complex than I remember.  (Of course, I haven't played D&D since the Reagan administration. I discovered Champions 3rd Ed in college and never went back. But I digress.) 

 

So, yeah ... maybe an overly simplified version isn't necessary after all.

 

I have a copy (PDF and dead tree) of Champions Complete. I have the Champions Character Creation Cards. I looked through 'em a bit after buying them, but not having a group at the time, I didn't do anything with them. Maybe I should dig those out and see what I can come up with. I've also got the Hero Designer software, which could (theoretically) help with the logistics of character creation.

 

Hrmmm. Must ponder.

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While Champions Now didn't end up being my particular brand of vodka, one thing I do like from that iteration is Ron's "Three Corners" approach. He asks the players to identify the following three aspects of the character they want to play:

 

Person: Who is the character? What is their cultural, ethnic, socioeconomic, and/or political identity? How old are they? What is their gender? What are their personal, educational, professional, and/or relationship goals? What do they look like? I particularly like this bit: "When it comes to this real-world stuff, be honest and interested. This isn’t to please an audience, but to please yourself. Powers can be cool, problems can be sympathetic, but this person is someone you (the player) like."

 

Problems: What are the problems, challenges, and limitations the character faces as a result of who they are? Disads/Complications are the game mechanics focus here, but more important is the question of how and why the affect the character the way they do. 

 

Powers: The suggestion here is to doodle (if only mentally) what the character's special abilities do and look like, and then pick specific Powers, Skills, and other Abilities to match the concept. 

 

The main idea is to create the character as a fleshed out fictional entity, and then spend points to put some version of that person on paper.

 

I may use this approach when/if the time comes, especially if I'm using the current (6th Ed) rules.

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In my experience, folks who are comfortable with the complexity of D&D 5e are often fine with HERO System, especially if you start them out with a short scenario using pregens, thoughtfully-designed templates, or the Champions Character Creation Cards so they can focus on learning the system as it is played before being asked to design characters for that system.

 

I completely agree that a well-designed character sheet is incredibly helpful (as is avoiding acronyms).

 

I like the long-standing advice for newbie supers players to ignore END and avoid Limitations, but I normally only do that if I'm starting them out with a higher-powered game. For street-level stuff, I usually leave those things in.

 

But, above all, I keep the characters simple. No fancy character builds. Just enough skills/talents/powers to give players good choices, with as few Power Modifiers as I can get away with, presented in as plain English as I can manage.

 

I used to agree that hiding the Speed Chart from new groups was best, but in the last couple of years I've changed my mind. Now I see the Speed Chart as not only integral to the system, but a prime reason to play HERO. I see it as kind of like chess having different forms of movement for the various chess pieces.

 

Edited to add: My experience is that the above works well for smaller groups of 4 or so players. I don't know how well it would work with a large group of new players.

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Part of the issue is that I've played 6th Ed so little. My old gaming group transitioned over just about the time I moved two counties away. So there's going to be a learning curve for me in terms of both character creation and GM mechanics. 

 

I'm pondering pulling out the old pregens for 3rd Ed (Crusader, Starburst, et. al.) and using the Character Creation Cards to generate simple 6th Ed versions of the characters. I'm also looking heavily at the Appendices from Champions Complete.

 

No idea if anything is likely to come of this, but it's fun to be thinking in this direction again.

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On 9/19/2022 at 6:15 PM, Pariah said:

We had the first meeting of the school's D&D Club today, and most of the time was spent in character creation. And yeah, it's a LOT more complex than I remember.  (Of course, I haven't played D&D since the Reagan administration.

 

Final Fantasy 7, Baldur's Gate, Pokémon, and more and more are older than the High School kids playing D&D these days.

 

Complexity means something different to kids raised on Minecraft than it did to us who used to think Axis & Allies was complex. :)

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