Mental Powers Based On PRE And The PRE Chart

[steriaca]

It is probably NOT a part of a power when you buy Based On PRE for mental powers, but how much would it cost as an advantage to have PRE Attack modifications upon it? If I would allow it, I'm sure it would be a Stop Sign advantage. 

 

Would +1 be acceptable?

[Christopher R Taylor]

I think you'd have to buy it as the base power then bonus dice, based on presence attack modifiers. At least that's how I would build it.

[dmjalund]

would it also include the penalties for repeated use on a target?

[Grailknight]

Interesting idea. Mental Powers and PRE-attacks are pretty similar in game effect and this would allow a greater number of factors to play into their determination.

 

I think I'd skip the based on PRE and just make this a straight advantage on Mental Powers. At +1/2 it doesn't break the game and adds some interesting variations.

 

 

[steriaca]

17 minutes ago, dmjalund said:

would it also include the penalties for repeated use on a target?

Yes. I believe so. Both positive and negative. 

[Christopher R Taylor]

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would it also include the penalties for repeated use on a target?

 

If this was true, I'd put a limitation on all the dice: reduced by PRE attack penalties.

[Derek Hiemforth]

2 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

I think you'd have to buy it as the base power then bonus dice, based on presence attack modifiers. At least that's how I would build it.

 

I like this suggestion. Buy the base power, and apply Mental Power Based on PRE (-¼) to that per APG1.  Then figure out the maximum number of bonus dice you envision it being able to give you from the PRE Attack Modifiers table, and buy those, applying a Limitation like Only Up to the Amount of PRE Attack Bonus Dice Awarded (-½).

 

This would also have the plus that you wouldn't have to worry about a less-than-great PRE Attack actually making you lose dice (which doesn't seem too much in keeping with the idea of a "super-Interaction Skill" type effect).

[LoneWolf]

The problem with this is that it is very easy to get very large bonuses on PRE attacks.  Looking at the chart you could in theory get up to +21 d6.  Getting the full 21 dice is going to be pretty hard but getting a 10d6 bonus is not that difficult.  This also allows the character to easily exceed the active point limit of the campaign.   This is too easy to abuse and should not be allowed.  If I did put a cost on the advantage, I would say it would need to be at least a +2 advantage and probably more.

 

Buying it as extra dice with a limitation is a lot better way to do it.  That gives the character a defined maximum.  This gives both the GM and the player a pretty good idea on what the power can accomplish.  By using it as an advantage sometimes the player will get nothing for it, and at other times they get a huge boost.  That is not fair to anyone.  You should get what you pay for, but you should also pay for what you get.       
 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah I wouldn't do a straight across translation of PRE bonuses to dice for mental power.  I mean, your GM should be reluctant to allow more than a few d6 extra based on circumstance (except for a GM).  4d6 should be enough of a bonus to do the job, treat each 5d6 of extra presence attack dice as 1d6 to the mental power or something.  Same in reverse: lose 1d6/4d6 presence attack penalty.

[Grailknight]

I don't see any reason to put a cap on the # of PRE die added. You're paying for a Power(I wouldn't give it -1/4 despite the APG.) with an advantage. After all there's no cap on how many extra die you can add to your free, 0 action PRE attack in the normal course of play. If you're in a situation where someone gets more than +6d6, you've probably lost anyway.

[Derek Hiemforth]

14 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

getting a 10d6 bonus is not that difficult. 

 

Man, I want to game with your GMs!  I don't think I can remember ever awarding, or seeing awarded, more than 6 or 7 bonus dice...

[LoneWolf]

+26 for strong psychological complication, +1d6 for surprise, +1d6 for exhibiting a power a power, +2d6 for extremely violent action, +1d6 for a good soliloquy, +1d6 for appropriate setting, +2d6 for target in partial retreat. That adds up to +10d6.  I skipped over a couple of categories completely, like interaction skills, need, and logic, nor did I take the maximum in most categories.  

 

This also does not include talents and perks.   A positive reputation in a small area like a city or a state on a 14- is 2pts per +1d6.  Striking appearance is 3 pts per +1d6 to affect all characters.   So, I spend 6 pts to get a +3d6 reputation and another 6 pts to get +2d6 striking appearance and now I am getting an additional +5d6. The reputation and striking appearance allow me to eliminate the violent action and psychological complication and still hit the +10d6.  I think most players seriously underestimate PRE.  
 

The biggest abuse of this would be when the character buys low number of dice and uses the PRE chart to gain enough dice to have a real effect.   If I buy 2d6 mind control and then get to add another 10d6 to it for things I have either not paid for or paid very little for that is abusive. 

[Grailknight]

1 hour ago, LoneWolf said:

+26 for strong psychological complication, +1d6 for surprise, +1d6 for exhibiting a power a power, +2d6 for extremely violent action, +1d6 for a good soliloquy, +1d6 for appropriate setting, +2d6 for target in partial retreat. That adds up to +10d6.  I skipped over a couple of categories completely, like interaction skills, need, and logic, nor did I take the maximum in most categories.  

 

This also does not include talents and perks.   A positive reputation in a small area like a city or a state on a 14- is 2pts per +1d6.  Striking appearance is 3 pts per +1d6 to affect all characters.   So, I spend 6 pts to get a +3d6 reputation and another 6 pts to get +2d6 striking appearance and now I am getting an additional +5d6. The reputation and striking appearance allow me to eliminate the violent action and psychological complication and still hit the +10d6.  I think most players seriously underestimate PRE.  
 

The biggest abuse of this would be when the character buys low number of dice and uses the PRE chart to gain enough dice to have a real effect.   If I buy 2d6 mind control and then get to add another 10d6 to it for things I have either not paid for or paid very little for that is abusive. 

 

If you can get all that commonly in your adventures why would you buy the Mind Control aspect? Just buy 20-30 PRE and win your fight with a zero phase, 0 END and auto-hit PRE Attack. My experiences are closer to Derek's. only rare conditions allow getting more than +4-6 versus anything but agents and civvies. And what's impressive or violent to them is business as usual to most of your powered foes.

[LoneWolf]

For one thing mental powers can do a lot more than a PRE attack can.  AT EGO +30 I can mind control a person to kill his loved ones, or even to simple die.  A   mental illusion at EGO + 10 I can make the make the targets allies look like enemies.  Getting most information from someone only requires getting their EGO.  The book even mentions the tactic of asking someone about the subject to bring the though t the surface.  With a PRE attack about all I am going to do put them at a disadvantage in combat and cause them to run away.  There is a chance they may do other things I want but no guarantee.  

 

The biggest abuse is the ability to purchase extra dice at lower cost.   I simply have a character buy a single dice of mental power with the suggested +1 advantage that raises the cost to 10 pts.  After that I buy striking appearance or reputation at 3 pts per die.  This allows me to spend 41 points to get a 12d6 mental power instead of spending 60.  Basically, after the 4th die it is a lot cheaper.   If I use a local reputation (whole state) I can get the extra die for 2pt.  This means that the advantage allows you to purchase mental power significantly cheaper than a normal mentalist.   An advantage is supposed to increase the cost of a power, not decrease it. 
 

[Hugh Neilson]

2 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

+26 for strong psychological complication, +1d6 for surprise, +1d6 for exhibiting a power a power, +2d6 for extremely violent action, +1d6 for a good soliloquy, +1d6 for appropriate setting, +2d6 for target in partial retreat. That adds up to +10d6.  I skipped over a couple of categories completely, like interaction skills, need, and logic, nor did I take the maximum in most categories. 

 

So we're assuming an opponent has an applicable Psych, and that it is strong.  How do you surprise them if they are already in partial retreat?  Everyone constantly takes extremely violent actions and the setting is always appropriate?   If they are already in partial retreat, aren't we already winning, so this seems less important?  And I note we conveniently forget -1d6 for being in combat (if we aren't, what are they partially retreating from?)

 

2 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

This also does not include talents and perks.   A positive reputation in a small area like a city or a state on a 14- is 2pts per +1d6.  Striking appearance is 3 pts per +1d6 to affect all characters.   So, I spend 6 pts to get a +3d6 reputation and another 6 pts to get +2d6 striking appearance and now I am getting an additional +5d6. The reputation and striking appearance allow me to eliminate the violent action and psychological complication and still hit the +10d6.  I think most players seriously underestimate PRE. 

 

I would look  closely at these, but I can have +15 PRE on 14- for 10 points and get +3d6 all the time, instead of spending 6 points to get +3d6 only against people from that small area.   Striking Appearance is not automatic - it must be a situation where that appearance could matter.  Pretty common at 3 points, but that's equivalent to a -1/2 limitation, also pretty common.

[Christopher R Taylor]

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Man, I want to game with your GMs!  I don't think I can remember ever awarding, or seeing awarded, more than 6 or 7 bonus dice

 

Yeah, that's the most I've ever managed to pull together as well.  I mean, its possible to get more, but it requires a pretty extreme set of combined circumstances and persons who pretty much you don't need to have a presence attack on to begin with.  Sure, you can scare a guy who's running away easier, but they're already running away, so...

 

I have to share this again.  In the Western Hero book I had fun showing how presence attacks work with the ending scene of Unforgiven when William Munny is trying to leave the shop after gunning down the sheriff, the shop owner, and like 4 other guys.
 

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He does a Presence Attack to try to cow them:

“Any man I see out there, I'm gonna kill him. Any SOB takes a shot at me, I'm not only gonna kill him, but I'm gonna kill his wife. All his friends. Burn his damn house down!”

OK so he’s being played by Clint Eastwood so he has a pretty high presence, we’ll say 18, so that’s a base of 3½d6.

William Munny has a pretty terrifying reputation already, so he’s probably riding that with a Very Frequent, Extreme Negative reputation; that’s +5d6 right off the bat.

He has just engaged in Extremely Violent Action by shooting down multiple armed men including the very capable Sheriff, that’s +3d6.

It’s an Excellent Soliloquy, so that’s +2d6.

The men who ran off are in partial retreat, so that’s +2d6.

The setting is appropriate, with a torrential storm, that’s +1d6.

On the other hand, Munny is outnumbered and at a disadvantage; that’s -1d6. 

 

Still, he gets a roll of 15½d6, utterly terrifies the men, and they let him ride off without firing a single shot.

 

 

So yeah, you can get a gigantic roll but its really situational and specific.  This was just about the perfect presence attack.

 

[Grailknight]

2 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

For one thing mental powers can do a lot more than a PRE attack can.  AT EGO +30 I can mind control a person to kill his loved ones, or even to simple die.  A   mental illusion at EGO + 10 I can make the make the targets allies look like enemies.  Getting most information from someone only requires getting their EGO.  The book even mentions the tactic of asking someone about the subject to bring the though t the surface.  With a PRE attack about all I am going to do put them at a disadvantage in combat and cause them to run away.  There is a chance they may do other things I want but no guarantee.  

 

The biggest abuse is the ability to purchase extra dice at lower cost.   I simply have a character buy a single dice of mental power with the suggested +1 advantage that raises the cost to 10 pts.  After that I buy striking appearance or reputation at 3 pts per die.  This allows me to spend 41 points to get a 12d6 mental power instead of spending 60.  Basically, after the 4th die it is a lot cheaper.   If I use a local reputation (whole state) I can get the extra die for 2pt.  This means that the advantage allows you to purchase mental power significantly cheaper than a normal mentalist.   An advantage is supposed to increase the cost of a power, not decrease it. 
 

 

Yes, Mental Powers are more versatile than Presence Attacks and I admit I was only considering Mind Control in my first replies.  I'm also ignoring the APG based on PRE option and just using this with regular Mental Powers. Let's dig deeper.

 

Mental Blast- Here is where it would be most effective so this may require some additional qualifiers(Auto-fire has 2 so there is longstanding precedent). The simplest would be to do the Doubling rule. This eliminates both the cost and number of addition dice concerns pretty handily.

 

Mental Illusions- I  see no problems here. The potential added dice are offset by the potential negative that lower PRE Attacks and many of the Adders just don't apply well.

 

Mind Control - I understand your concerns but it takes a near perfect setup to reach the additional dice figures that worry you while never mentioning any of things that will subtract dice. Regular Mind Control doesn't have things like being in combat, or the villains reputation or being surrounded by agents reducing it's effectiveness and we are talking about a more expensive advantaged variant.

 

Mind Scan - I see no way for this advantage to be applied here.

 

Telepathy - I can see it being fairly effective here when interrogating prisoners at dramatic points in a scene but Telepathy works well anyway unless you looking for things the target doesn't know about themselves. For most other scenarios the add and subtracts seem balanced.

[steriaca]

Basically I was thinking of this for my character Lady Heart. As written s/he has +PRE, only to get people to stop fighting. It really wasn't doing what I wanted it to do when I played hir in play by post. So I was thinking a Based on PRE Mind Control to do the same thing more often and reliably. Then the PRE Chart entered my mind.

 

But I agree, prehaps it is a bit too abusive, even with penalties. 

[Derek Hiemforth]

11 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

+26 for strong psychological complication, +1d6 for surprise, +1d6 for exhibiting a power a power, +2d6 for extremely violent action, +1d6 for a good soliloquy, +1d6 for appropriate setting, +2d6 for target in partial retreat. That adds up to +10d6.  I skipped over a couple of categories completely, like interaction skills, need, and logic, nor did I take the maximum in most categories.  

 

This also does not include talents and perks.   A positive reputation in a small area like a city or a state on a 14- is 2pts per +1d6.  Striking appearance is 3 pts per +1d6 to affect all characters.   So, I spend 6 pts to get a +3d6 reputation and another 6 pts to get +2d6 striking appearance and now I am getting an additional +5d6. The reputation and striking appearance allow me to eliminate the violent action and psychological complication and still hit the +10d6.  I think most players seriously underestimate PRE.  
 

The biggest abuse of this would be when the character buys low number of dice and uses the PRE chart to gain enough dice to have a real effect.   If I buy 2d6 mind control and then get to add another 10d6 to it for things I have either not paid for or paid very little for that is abusive. 

 

True, but you also have to figure in penalties for things like conflicting psychological complications, combat, inappropriate setting, being at a disadvantage (which is often when you make a PRE attack, because you need a break to turn the tide), or a PRE attack running counter to existing moods.

In my experience, most PRE attacks include both positive and negative modifiers, and I'm not sure I remember seeing a net of more than +7d6...

[LoneWolf]

A decent PRE attack has a good chance of getting people to stop fighting.  You will need to be able to get the dice up to about 11d6 or so to stop most characters.  Start with a decent PRE and use a couple of the things I was talking about like reputation and striking looks to give it a bit of a boost. A couple more modifiers from the chart should be able to get you up to where you can get the results you want.  

[dmjalund]

since there is no PreCV, you will need to add an advantage so it will affect any and/or all who see you like a Presence Attack

[Christopher R Taylor]

One of the Advanced Player Guides had an area effect Visible, to represent an AE that affects anyone that can perceive the target when used.

[steriaca]

1 hour ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

One of the Advanced Player Guides had an area effect Visible, to represent an AE that affects anyone that can perceive the target when used.

Page 135 of Advance Player's Guide 1, Sight Range (a combo of Area Of Effect Radius at the +1 level, Line of Sight +1/2, No Range Limitation for -1/4, and maybe Personal Immunity  for +1/4 if the power could theoretically be reflected and not affect the user)

 

Can be modified probably with Accurate Selective (+3/4, from Page 134 of Advance Player's Guide 1). Voice Range (page 136) is basically Sight Range with Incarnations, which is not nessisary needed because the power of Mind Control by default has it as default (orders are voice based plus mind based anyways).

 

Advance Player's Guide 2 doesn't have many new Area of Effect options except for Range Damage Shield. I can imagine this with Variable Special Effects to simulate someone whose body can absorb and redirect energy, but can't fire out energy unless he is hit with it first. It doesn't provide defense by itself, but man, it makes energy blasters nervous.