Feedback on a magic system.

[LoneWolf]

I am working on a magic system for fantasy hero and wanted to get some feedback on it.  Since wizards have to buy their attacks as spells instead of getting them free I am giving them a couple of things to kind of offset this.  First is that for purpose of when combat spells count as mental powers. Since a Wizard is going to have a decent EGO this means they don’t need to worry about DEX as much.  Reducing the cost of their skill levels makes it easier to match other characters OCV.  Spells also get a -1 limitation to further reduce the cost.  I implemented a rule dispel magic does not require the +1/4 advantage to be able to target any spell.  This was done to fix the problem of dispel magic being too expensive.  

 

Spells are bought individually, and power frameworks are not allowed.

 

All spells are required to take the -1/2 requires magic skill roll limitation.  This skill costs 3/2 points and the roll is 9 + EGO/5.  This skill can only be bought at character creation.  A character does not need to purchase the full skill at character creation and can buy latent magic for 1 point.  Latent magic is basically purchasing familiarity with the skill so gives you an 8- roll.  This skill will often be required to use certain magic items. 

 

In addition to the requires a magic roll all spells must also take the -1 limitation spell.  This limitation has two major effects.  The first is that it gives magi a cost break on purchasing spells to offset the fact that spells have to purchase the full power, where other character can use gear without having to spend points on it.  The second is that all spells are considered to be a single effect for the purpose of dispelling.  You still have to target each power separately, but you do not need to purchase the +1/4 advantage any single spell.  

 

The maximum active cost of a spell that a character can cast is equal to 2x EGO.  This is a casting requirement not a limit to how much the character can buy.  A magi can increase this limit by creating a talisman.  

 

The maximum number of spells a magi can have active at one time is INT/5

 

All spells cost END to cast, but only cost END to activate is acceptable.  Spells cost 1 END per 10 active points in the spell.  Since most characters get their attacks and DEF without having to spend points normal STR costs 1 END per 5 points.  STR bought as a spell uses the rate of 1 END per 10 active points.

 

Spells cannot produce the Holy effect.

 

Most attack spells unless they are mental powers, should take the +0 advantage use OMCV vs DCV. Spells can take the full use OMCV vs DMCV if they want but are not required to.  Spells that use OMCV use mental combat skill levels instead of normal combat skill levels but are not considered mental powers for any other purpose unless the appropriate advantages are purchased.
 

[Mr. R]

Sounds cool.  

 

How does this Talisman figure into things?  Is it basically Ego w/ No Figured and Only to raise limit.  

How common are they?  Because Max AP of 2x Ego means AT BEST 40 AP.  Nice, but eventually I want my mage to Kick Butt.  

[LoneWolf]

Sorry I forgot to include the rules for a talisman.

In Game terms a talisman is simply extra EGO with some limitations on it.  A character can only create a talisman equal to half of his EGO.  The character must pay for the cost of the talisman with character points but applies the -1 limitation only to calculate the maximum active cost of a spell, and the appropriate focus limitation (Minimum of IIF).  All talismans are breakable focus. 

 

The idea is that characters will often buy spells that they cannot cast without the talisman.  This gives a character a reason to use the traditional foci, but still allows them to function without them.  When you put a focus limitation on a spell, and you don’t have the focus you are useless.  This way you can still do something but are still not as powerful without it.

[DShomshak]

Mechanics: OK, whatever.

 

As a player, though, I'd want more information on what sort of things this magic can and cannot do, beyond "no Holy effects." And what is the nature of magic? Quasi-psychic power? Spirit invocations? A quasi-Hermetic system of supernatural forces, channeled through a system or symbolic correspondences? Elemental? True Names? This is what makes magic vivid and distinctive.

 

Though I may be unusual in this interest.

 

Dean Shomshak

[DentArthurDent]

I really like the Talisman idea. 

I also like the idea of balancing Mages and Fighters.

 

I’m having a little trouble keeping up with all the consequences of the changes. Can you list some things for me? Like, what have you created to make Magic ‘cheaper’ and what have you created to limit Magic?

[LoneWolf]

Mages have a couple things to balance out having to pay for spells.  When a mage attacks is based on EGO instead of DEX.  Since EGO is cheaper and is the mages primary stat, they tend to act first.  Mental skill levels are cheaper than normal combat skill levels, so the mage pays less for those than the fighter.  Spells also get an additional -1 limitation in addition to any other limitation just for being a spell.  This puts the minimum limitation on a spell to a – 1 ½.   That puts the cost of a 1d6 RKA to 6 pts, throw on a few more limitations like gestures, incantations and side effect it drops to 4 pts. 

 

Mages have one big advantage in that they get more than just basic damage.  Being able to add advantages and use unusual forms of attacks is quite powerful, so I don’t want to give them too much.

 

I will be adding more details latter including what magic can and cannot do.

[Ninja-Bear]

@LoneWolf, are many attack spells are going to go against ED? Typically Heroic level characters and monsters have an unequal PD to ED. That also would provide a small bonus to the mage.

[LoneWolf]

Here are more details of the magic system I am working on.

 

Types of Magic

 

Magic is divided up into nine schools.  Each school represents a specific aspect of the world.  The schools of magic are Vita (Life), Mortem (Death), Mentis (Mental), Ignis (Fire), Aqua (Water), Aeris (Air), Terra (Earth), Imago (Image), and Alium (Other).

 

Vita is the magic that affects normal living things. It can alter, control or detect any living thing.  Mental powers that use Vita use go against CON instead of EGO.  Vita also includes healing.  Vita does not work against creature of other worlds.

 

Mortem is the magic of death and decay.  It can create, summon and control undead. Spells of death and decay fall under Vita.  Another thing that Mortem can be used for is to contact the dead for information. 

 

Mentis is the magic of mind and thought.  It can alter, read and control the minds of normal creatures. 

 

Ignis is the magic of creating and controlling energy.  Fire is probably the most common form of energy, but it includes all energy. 

 

Aqua is the magic of creating and controlling liquid.

 

Aeris is the magic of creating and controlling gas.

 

Terra is the magic of creating and controlling solids.

 

Imago is the magic relating to perception.  It includes illusion and divination.  

 

Alium is the magic of other worlds.  It includes contacting, controlling and summoning creatures and things from other worlds.  Traveling to those other worlds are also under Alium.     

 

To cast a spell using the type of magic the magi has to have the skill for the type.  These are bought as sciences not knowledge skills.  This skill is a complementary skill for the magic skill roll to cast the spell. The four elemental schools (Ignis, Aqua, Aeris, & Terra) involve direct manipulation of things in that state but do not involve creatures of any sort.

 

There are no parallel worlds similar to our own.  Other worlds are worlds are where powerful magical creatures dwell.  Demons, Genies, Fae are all examples of those types of creatures. Alium involves contacting and dealing with those creatures. It often includes making pacts with those creatures for power.  This makes it one of the most versatile schools as it can grant powers similar to the other schools.     

 

Any ability outside these schools cannot be achieved with magic.

 

 

Edited September 24, 2022 by LoneWolf
Correct the wrong school

[Mr. R]

2 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

Mortem is the magic of death and decay.  It can create, summon and control undead. Spells of death and decay fall under Vita.  Another thing that Vita can be used for is to contact the dead for information. 

Mortem or Vita?  Which?

 

2 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

Alium involves contacting and dealing with those creatures. It often includes making pacts with those creatures for power.  This makes it one of the most versatile schools as it can grant powers similar to the other schools.

HMMM!  I am getting a Al Qadim Shair type feel for this school (They are genie summoners who could use their lowest type genie to hunt for spells for them.  So they had a HUGE spell selection BUT it took time to cast each spell, like minutes or hours time)

 

 

OK you are going for some classics used in a lot of games.  Is there a limit to how many schools you can learn?  Are there certain counter schools, like if you know Vita you can't learn Mortis?

It has promise and I'd like to see more!

[LoneWolf]

I corrected the type in the Mortem section.   

 

What I am trying to do is to create a framework that allows for the creation of a variety of different caster types.  So, there is nothing that prevents a caster from learning all types of magic, except they have to pay for everything.   Later after I have fleshed out the system a bit more, I will be creating package deals for different types of casters.  Some of those package deals may contain restriction on what magic a caster can learn, but the base system has no restriction.  

 

Alium can be used for a lot of different types of magic, including not only Genie Binders, but also the classic satanic witch who sell their soul to the devil for power. 
 

[Old Man]

I was going to say that the only thing your magic system lacks is a way to encourage casters to choose thematically related spells, but it sounds like you're on the way toward fleshing that out.

 

Similar to EGO vs. DEX, you could resurrect the ancient Mana stat, thus saving your spell casters from having to invest in CON so much.

[LoneWolf]

I use 6th edition so figured stats are not a concern.

[LoneWolf]

Here are the skills that a caster can take to allow them to do specific things with magic.

 

Magic: Ego based skill that allows characters to cast spells and to use some magic items. Detailed in the first post. 

 

Analyze Spell: INT based skill that allows a character to figure out what someone is casting and how powerful the spells is.  This can be used multiple times in an encounter but only once per spell.

 

 

Spell Research: INT based skill that allows a caster to create and modify spells.  There are two ways to use this skill.  This skill is not something that every caster has. 

 

The first and most common is to invent or modify spells out of combat.  This takes a fair amount of time.  Using this skill like this allows a character to modify their spells permanently. Any change in cost of the spell has to be paid when doing so.

 

The second way it can be used is to modify spells in combat.  This allows the caster to modify the limitation on the spell on the fly.  Modifying a spell in combat is a dangerous thing to do and can easily blow up in the casters face.  Any spell modified in combat takes the side effect limitation based on how much the limitation is being modified. These side effects are based on the Spell Research roll not the magic roll. If the spell already has side effect, it is possible to trigger both.  When a spell is modified in combat both the modification and the casting of the spell happen at the same time.  If either roll fails, the spell does not work.  If you make the magic roll but fail the spell research roll the spells side effect affect the caster but other than that the spell dissipates harmlessly.  The spell research roll has to be made each time the spell is modified in combat.

 

 Both uses of the skill take a penalty based on the active cost of the spell. 

 

 

Enchantment This INT based skill allows a character to create magic items. This will be fleshed out at a later point, with guidelines on creating items. This skill is required to create a talisman.    

 

 

Analyze spell, spell research and enchantment can only be taken by someone with the magic skill.  Enchantment can be taken by someone who only has latent magic (familiarity with magic). 

[LoneWolf]

Here is what I have form creating magic items.

 

Magic Items

 

Enchanting is an INT based skill that costs 2 points for one category.  Each additional category cost 1 point.  +1 to the roll with all category's costs 2 points.  You take a -1 penalty on the roll for every 10 active points in the effect.  This skill can only be purchased by a spell caster or someone with latent magic.

 

Magic item categories

 

Consumables: Items with a limited number of uses that once exhausted become useless.  Consumables cannot have more than 10 active points.  Examples of consumables include potions, wands and scrolls. 

 

Spell Casting Items: These items can only be used by a spell caster.  They include talismans but can also give bonuses to your magic roll.  They can also contain spells that the caster can use without having to purchase. Spells in these items are cast as if the wielder was doing it themselves.  That means they use the casters END and Magic skill.  Any spell built into a spell casting item is subject to all the rules on spells including needing a magic roll and costing END.  

 

Offensive Items: This category is for any non-consumable power that requires an attack roll.  It includes all magic weapons but does not include powers that require a magic roll.  

 

 Defensive Items: Any items that provides ongoing protection to a character is considered a defensive item.  Magic armor is considered a defensive Item but can include other protective items.

 

Non-Combat Items:  This category includes permeant powers that are not used in combat that do not require a magic roll.   

 

Living Enchantments: This category allows a caster to grant a magic power directly to a living creature.  If you use a focus limitation it cannot be an accessible focus.  Any focus limitation has a physical manifestation that can be damaged to destroy the power.  For example, you could have a tattoo that damage to the tattoo cause the enchantment to be destroyed. These types of enchantments draw on the power of the enchanted creature.  In other words, the enchanted creature pays the END cost.  

 

To create a magic item, you have to enchant the item as it is being created.  You cannot add power to an item after it is created or add them to a mundane item.  This means that you can only enchant an item you create yourself.  Creating magic items requires the enchantment skill, the magic skill, the science skill in the type of magic to be used, and the skill needed to create the item.  

 

To enchant an item, you must either know a spell that duplicates the effect or use the skill spell research to create the effect you are enchanting. If you use spell research, you take the normal penalty for the active cost of the power.  Using spell research this way does not require you to spend character points.  Using spell research this way does has to be done every time you attempt to enchant an item you don’t know the spell for.

 

Enchanting items take a lot of time money and effort.  It takes at least 1 day per real point of the item to make.  Items costing 10 or less real points also have a material cost equal to that of a difficult to replace focus.  Items with a real cost of 11-20 points have a material cost of that of a very difficult to replace focus.  Items of a real cost of more than 20 have a material cost of an extremely difficult to replace focus.  This time and cost are in addition to any required to create the item.
 
Creating magic items requires the enchantment skill, the magic skill, the appropriate science skill for the type of magic, knowing the spell, or spell research and the skill to create the item.  You take the time required to make item and the roll to creating the item and the enchantment roll with the penalty for the total active cost of the item.  The magic skill and the science skill are both complementary skills to the enchantment skill. If both rolls succeed you have created the item.  If the roll to create the item fails, the item is flawed beyond repair and is useless.  If you make the roll to create the item but fail the enchantment roll the item works but is not enchanted and functions like a normal item of its type.  In either case the material components are gone.  

 

Normally a caster can only make an item with a real cost equal to his EGO.  They can spend extra time to increase this limit.  Each step down the time chart past 1 day adds +5 to the real cost the caster can create.  So, if a caster spent an extra year enchanting an item, they would add +20 to their EGO to determine the maximum active cost the item can be.  
 

[Asperion]

You make it clear at several points that magical items generally possess charges in some form that cannot be restored.  Yet in other systems they have recoverable charges on many magic devices.  Are you stating that such a thing is simply not possible under the system your creating or is there some workaround?

[LoneWolf]

The only type of magic item that has charges that cannot be recovered is consumable items.   Most other types of items can have charges.   An item that could shoot a lightning bolt several times a day would be classified as an offensive item. Spell casting items are designed to use the casters own power, so usually don’t have charges.   

[assault]

Having a moment.

 

Can you show us some spells?

 

The kind that you can pick from a list, rather than work out the hard way. In short, the ones you would choose when you are creating your first character in this system.

[LoneWolf]

I will eventually get to some sample spells, but the main focus is going to be on creating a framework that allows you to create a style of magic.  

 

Right now, I am working on some ideas for talents and complications that will allows some customization of spell casters.   
 

[LoneWolf]

I have been busy for the last few weeks so have not had a chance to work on this as much as I would have liked to.  

 

Complications help to define a character and all characters should have appropriate complications.  Casters often have very different backgrounds than other characters and some caster specific complications can really help with this.  Below are some examples of complications for casters.  For the most part they affect how a casters magic work and can only be taken by spell casters.  In addition to these the caster can also have a lot of other complications that tie into his magical abilities.  A character that inherited his magic from a dragon ancestor could have distinctive features.  A character who sold his soul to a demon could have accidental change where the demon gains control of the character or could have psychological complications representing the demons influence.  

 

Restricted Magic:  This physical complication represents that fact that the caster is limited in which spells they can cast.  The value is based on how many types of magic the caster has access to. Since this restricts what the player can buy it is always considered infrequently. This could be because of some flaw in the character that prevents him from using some forms of magic, but it can also be due to how the character gained his spells.  For example, if the character made a deal with a demon, the demon may restrict his ability to use other magic.  Maybe the demon gains power by taking part of the casters power. 

 

Focused Caster: (Infrequently, Barely) the character can learn to cast 4-6 types of magic and has no limitations on how he learns them. This is worth 5 pts.

 

Limited Caster: (Infrequently, Slightly) the character can learn to cast 3 types of magic but has no restrictions on how they learn them. Or the character can learn 4-6 types of magic but has significant restriction on how they learn spell.  Typically, this means they cannot take spell research and once learned cannot alter their spells.  This is worth 10 pts.

 

Restricted Caster: (Infrequently, Greatly) the character single type of magic and has significant restriction on how they learn spells.  This is worth 15 pts.

 

Unable to cast Spells: (Infrequently, Fully) the character cannot cast spells at all.  The character still has a magic roll but cannot cast spells.  This complication is designed for characters that can create magic items, but not cast spell.  This is worth 20 pts.

 

Price of power: This dependency means that the character has to make regular sacrifices or engage in specific behavior.  Often it means the character is bargaining with something for power but can also represent a character having to behave in a certain manner to access his power. The value of the sacrifice is up to the GM but is equal to that of an expendable focus of equal level. If a behavior is the cost of power, it should be something that has some consequences, and the GM should examine it closely. After making the sacrifice the character can cast spells for at least as long as the frequency of the complication.  After that there is a growing chance, the character will lose the ability to cast spells until they make another sacrifice.  This usually means the frequency is fairly high usually at least an hour.  A caster with this complication may only have the ability to cast spells some of the time so is often more common in NPC’s than for PC’s.

 

Soul Magic: (Extremely Difficult, 1 Hour, starts with a 14 or less roll) The character has to sacrifice a sentient creature to cast spells.  After an hour the character has to make a 14 or less roll to cast any spell.  There is a -1 penalty for each hour past the first that passes.  This is worth 15 pts.

 

Daily Sacrifice: (Common, 1 Day, starts with a 11 or less roll) The character has to make a moderate daily sacrifice to be able to cast spells.  This is worth 5 pts).

Servant of A power: This social complication is used to represent a character gains his power for directly serving an entity.  It is basically a variant of the subject to orders.  If the character disobeys the orders, they lose the ability to cast spells until they have regained the favor of the entity. 

 

 Knight of a Fairy court: (Infrequently, Minor) the character is a sworn vassal of some fey noble.  The noble’s requests are usually whimsical rather than dangerous.  This is worth 5pts.

 

Servant of a dark power: (Frequently, Major) the character is the hidden agent of a demon or other dark power.  They are usually focused on information and manipulation rather than direct combat, but some danger is involved.  This is worth 15 pts.

 

Champion of power: (Very frequently, Severe) the character is an envoy of a major power and is sent to deal with major problem of the entity.  They are expected to deal with the problem no matter what it takes including sacrificing their own lives.  This is worth 25 pts.

 

Marked by Magic: This distinctive feature is one of the most common complications for spell casters.  It can represent an actual physical feature but is often an aura that requires special powers to detect. In some campaigns the GM may require all spell casters to take one. Unlike most other spell caster complication, it usually does not affect their ability to cast spell.

 

Magic Aura: (Concealable with major effort, Noticed and recognized, detectable by unusual sense) this complication means that others can detect you are spell caster, but need spells to do so.  It is often required that any character casting spells take this complication.  By default, it is worth 0 pts, but could be worth more.  If the character is a powerful caster or is using forbidden magic the reaction could be more severe and therefor worth more points.
  

    
 

[Hugh Neilson]

1 hour ago, LoneWolf said:

I have been busy for the last few weeks so have not had a chance to work on this as much as I would have liked to.  

 

Complications help to define a character and all characters should have appropriate complications.  Casters often have very different backgrounds than other characters and some caster specific complications can really help with this.  Below are some examples of complications for casters.  For the most part they affect how a casters magic work and can only be taken by spell casters.  In addition to these the caster can also have a lot of other complications that tie into his magical abilities.  A character that inherited his magic from a dragon ancestor could have distinctive features.  A character who sold his soul to a demon could have accidental change where the demon gains control of the character or could have psychological complications representing the demons influence.  

 

Restricted Magic:  This physical complication represents that fact that the caster is limited in which spells they can cast.  The value is based on how many types of magic the caster has access to. Since this restricts what the player can buy it is always considered infrequently. This could be because of some flaw in the character that prevents him from using some forms of magic, but it can also be due to how the character gained his spells.  For example, if the character made a deal with a demon, the demon may restrict his ability to use other magic.  Maybe the demon gains power by taking part of the casters power. 

 

Focused Caster: (Infrequently, Barely) the character can learn to cast 4-6 types of magic and has no limitations on how he learns them. This is worth 5 pts.

 

Limited Caster: (Infrequently, Slightly) the character can learn to cast 3 types of magic but has no restrictions on how they learn them. Or the character can learn 4-6 types of magic but has significant restriction on how they learn spell.  Typically, this means they cannot take spell research and once learned cannot alter their spells.  This is worth 10 pts.

 

Restricted Caster: (Infrequently, Greatly) the character single type of magic and has significant restriction on how they learn spells.  This is worth 15 pts.

 

Unable to cast Spells: (Infrequently, Fully) the character cannot cast spells at all.  The character still has a magic roll but cannot cast spells.  This complication is designed for characters that can create magic items, but not cast spell.  This is worth 20 pts.

 

I have to admit that I am not a huge fan of "can't spend points on this" as a Complication.  As I look at this scale, I ask what the value is for "has no magic roll and can't cast spells".  I don't intent to play a spellcaster or someone who can make magic items.  Why do I have to come up with more complications than a Necromancer who only buys Necromantic spells? Can the Wizard also get points for being unable to buy skill levels with weapons, or with certain weapons? How about capping his physical stats at levels no greater than he intends to pay for anyway?

 

It seems like not being able to use gear that would provide abilities with no CP spend required is more limiting than not being able to spend CP in certain ways, doesn't it?

 

These examples also seem to incorporate two separate limitations.  What if a character can learn pretty much any spell, but someone has to teach them?  Or is limited to a single type of magic, but is fully capable of altering and researching spells?

 

1 hour ago, LoneWolf said:

Price of power: This dependency means that the character has to make regular sacrifices or engage in specific behavior.  Often it means the character is bargaining with something for power but can also represent a character having to behave in a certain manner to access his power. The value of the sacrifice is up to the GM but is equal to that of an expendable focus of equal level. If a behavior is the cost of power, it should be something that has some consequences, and the GM should examine it closely. After making the sacrifice the character can cast spells for at least as long as the frequency of the complication.  After that there is a growing chance, the character will lose the ability to cast spells until they make another sacrifice.  This usually means the frequency is fairly high usually at least an hour.  A caster with this complication may only have the ability to cast spells some of the time so is often more common in NPC’s than for PC’s.

 

Soul Magic: (Extremely Difficult, 1 Hour, starts with a 14 or less roll) The character has to sacrifice a sentient creature to cast spells.  After an hour the character has to make a 14 or less roll to cast any spell.  There is a -1 penalty for each hour past the first that passes.  This is worth 15 pts.

 

Daily Sacrifice: (Common, 1 Day, starts with a 11 or less roll) The character has to make a moderate daily sacrifice to be able to cast spells.  This is worth 5 pts).

Servant of A power: This social complication is used to represent a character gains his power for directly serving an entity.  It is basically a variant of the subject to orders.  If the character disobeys the orders, they lose the ability to cast spells until they have regained the favor of the entity. 

 

 Knight of a Fairy court: (Infrequently, Minor) the character is a sworn vassal of some fey noble.  The noble’s requests are usually whimsical rather than dangerous.  This is worth 5pts.

 

Servant of a dark power: (Frequently, Major) the character is the hidden agent of a demon or other dark power.  They are usually focused on information and manipulation rather than direct combat, but some danger is involved.  This is worth 15 pts.

 

Champion of power: (Very frequently, Severe) the character is an envoy of a major power and is sent to deal with major problem of the entity.  They are expected to deal with the problem no matter what it takes including sacrificing their own lives.  This is worth 25 pts.

 

While I like these in principal, the examples seem pretty draconian.  It seems like "sacrifice a sentient being" is a pretty high level of sacrifice.  "Servant of someone who will send me on adventures or missions we probably would have undertaken anyway given the nature of the game" seems like a much easier way to gain 15 points than "must slaughter someone every hour to keep using the powers my character paid for".

 

1 hour ago, LoneWolf said:

Marked by Magic: This distinctive feature is one of the most common complications for spell casters.  It can represent an actual physical feature but is often an aura that requires special powers to detect. In some campaigns the GM may require all spell casters to take one. Unlike most other spell caster complication, it usually does not affect their ability to cast spell.

 

Magic Aura: (Concealable with major effort, Noticed and recognized, detectable by unusual sense) this complication means that others can detect you are spell caster, but need spells to do so.  It is often required that any character casting spells take this complication.  By default, it is worth 0 pts, but could be worth more.  If the character is a powerful caster or is using forbidden magic the reaction could be more severe and therefor worth more points.

 

It seems like the drawbacks here depend a lot on how limiting it is to be known as a caster.  Powerful casters probably use their spells a lot more.  Casters with obvious, flashy magic won't be very hard to identify as casters anyway.

 

Why am I having Knights of the Dinner Table flashbacks to every character having Male Pattern Baldness because it was worth Build Points in Hackmaster but didn't really do anything?

 

Can I buy a Targeting Detect Magic so I can attack invisible wizards?

[LoneWolf]

 Not being able to cast spell is the default assumption of the system I am creating.  In order to ever be able to cast spell a character has to have at least familiarity with the magic skill.  If they don’t, they can never learn magic no matter what.  Most of these complications are designed for spell casters and cannot be taken by non-caster.  A lot of these complications are designed to be part of a package deal to allow creating different types of casters. 

 

Under 6^th edition which is what I am designing this system for you don’t get points for complication. So, no one is getting any points for taking a complication.  If someone wants to use this in an earlier version, they can but will need to modify it themselves.     

 

Restricted Magic also limits what spell casting items you can use.  So, if someone is not able to use Ignis they cannot use wands an item that casts Ignis spells.  What I listed are examples of how to build the complication and can and should be modified by the character taking it.  They do have two lines of restrictions, but I wanted to avoid having too many small, interrelated complications. 

 

Soul Magic is draconian and was intended that way.  Not all these are intended for player characters. Soul Magic was designed more for a NPC that is normally not that much of a challenge but can become one if they need to. 

 

Magic Aura is mainly designed so that spell casters can identify other spell casters.   This is a 0-point complication and will often be a required one for all spell casters.   I don’t see a reason you could not buy a spell that would give you targeting on detect magic, but a caster could also buy invisibility to detect magic which would counter that.    

[Hugh Neilson]

 

3 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

Under 6^th edition which is what I am designing this system for you don’t get points for complication. So, no one is getting any points for taking a complication.  If someone wants to use this in an earlier version, they can but will need to modify it themselves.

 

6e changed the semantics, not the reality.  You can choose to take fewer matching complications at the cost of fewer points for your character.

 

Quote

You don’t have to select the full value of Matching Complications for your character, but every 1 Character Point by which you don’t meet the Matching Complications amount reduces your character’s Total Points by 1.

 

You could alternatively create a power, "Uncomplicated".  Every point of Uncomplicated reduces your required complications by 1 point.

 

The end result of 5e, 6e or that is that you either take the maximum complications or you have fewer CP to spend on your other abilities.

 

3 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

 Not being able to cast spell is the default assumption of the system I am creating.  In order to ever be able to cast spell a character has to have at least familiarity with the magic skill.  If they don’t, they can never learn magic no matter what.  Most of these complications are designed for spell casters and cannot be taken by non-caster.  A lot of these complications are designed to be part of a package deal to allow creating different types of casters.  

 

Restricted Magic also limits what spell casting items you can use.  So, if someone is not able to use Ignis they cannot use wands an item that casts Ignis spells.  What I listed are examples of how to build the complication and can and should be modified by the character taking it.  They do have two lines of restrictions, but I wanted to avoid having too many small, interrelated complications. 

 

So,if I were to buy, say, Familiarity with Magic Skill for 1 point, can I now take "cannot cast spells", Soul Magic and Servant of a Higher Power?  I betrayed the higher power by not killing someone every hour, so now I can't cast any spells.  My magical knowledge was stripped away - I just remember some very basic, rudimentary magical theory.  Do I get 60 points of complications for that?

 

If every character could use spell casting items, then I would consider an inability to use some or all to be a complication. 

 

If the default character cannot use those items, but spending points allows the character to cast spells AND use spell casting items, then I would consider removal of the ability to use spell casting items a limitation on the ability purchased to allow casting spells since the character gets a reduced benefit from those specific points.

 

But if a 3 point skill allows you to use any and all spell casting items, I would not consider loss of access to some spellcasting items to be worth  more than a point or 2 (a -2 limitation drops the cost of 3 points to 1 point).

 

3 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

Soul Magic is draconian and was intended that way.  Not all these are intended for player characters. Soul Magic was designed more for a NPC that is normally not that much of a challenge but can become one if they need to.  

 

That feels less a function of the complication and more a function of a build that provides extra power  only under specific circumstances.  The points don't really matter if it's not for PC use anyway, but setting "truly draconian" at 15 points also sets the bar for lesser restrictions being worth even less points.  But that's more a function of Dependence of the model of Dependence than of this specific application of the mechanic.  What kind of  sacrifices might apply to a PC, at what value of complications?

 

3 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

Magic Aura is mainly designed so that spell casters can identify other spell casters.   This is a 0-point complication and will often be a required one for all spell casters.   I don’t see a reason you could not buy a spell that would give you targeting on detect magic, but a caster could also buy invisibility to detect magic which would counter that.    

 

We can always envision an arm's race..."Detect Invisibility" to "Invisibility to Detect Invisibility"?  He's Invisible to that! 

 

It seems more a campaign-specific rule than a Complication.

 

But I am wondering how the default ability to recognize a spellcaster would interact with Stealth, Invisibility, etc.  It also seems to make "stealthier" magic a lot less practical.  "Well, that guy over there is a spellcaster - the King is probably Charmed."  That could be a flaw, or a desired feature, depending on the campaign envisioned.

[LoneWolf]

The Idea of the magic system is to give the GM and players a way to create different styles of magic.  I am also trying to keep to the standard rules as much as possible so want to avoid too many house rules. 

 

Hugh, do you have any ideas of how to limit what a caster can do other than complication?   If so let me know.

 

Most of these complications will be used in package deals and taking them outside of them will require the GM’s permission.  The package deals will include other things besides just the magic skill.  For the most part I expect the cost of the package deal to exceed the value of the complication which would prevent you from doing what you suggest.

 

The Magic Aura is only detectible by unusual sense (Detect Spells).  I usually have an additional sense group magic which the detect would be part of.  So if the invisibility is bought with the magic sense group it would hide the aura.  Considering about the only way for a character to become invisible is a spell, that would mean that a character could take targeting on detect magic even without using the complication.
 

[Hugh Neilson]

20 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

The Magic Aura is only detectible by unusual sense (Detect Spells).  I usually have an additional sense group magic which the detect would be part of.  So if the invisibility is bought with the magic sense group it would hide the aura.  Considering about the only way for a character to become invisible is a spell, that would mean that a character could take targeting on detect magic even without using the complication.

 

I don't see a lot of issues with the magical aura as a campaign base rule.  If they had no magical aura, what would stop someone creating a Detect Spellcaster spell, like Supers games have Detect Mutant devices?  More musing on my part that may have been best avoided.

 

20 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

The Idea of the magic system is to give the GM and players a way to create different styles of magic.  I am also trying to keep to the standard rules as much as possible so want to avoid too many house rules. 

 

Hugh, do you have any ideas of how to limit what a caster can do other than complication?   If so let me know.

 

Most of these complications will be used in package deals and taking them outside of them will require the GM’s permission.  The package deals will include other things besides just the magic skill.  For the most part I expect the cost of the package deal to exceed the value of the complication which would prevent you from doing what you suggest.

 

The system already hardcodes one limitation - if you want more abilities, you have to pay for them.  With a separate skill required for each branch of magic, focusing on one or only a few makes more points available for those fewer branches. That could be made more significant with "basic training" package deals for each branch of magic - you get the Skill for that type of Magic, and a set of spells considered the basics of that type of Magic.  Does that cost 10 points?  15 points?  25 points?  That will restrict the types of magic right out of the gate.

 

You also note all spells get a -1 limitation - that could code in the fact that you need at least 'X' points of spells from that type of magic as the base buy-in.  An earlier FH edition did something similar with schools of magic - IIRC, some schools had a bigger base cost requirement.

 

Maybe you don't need that base investment but, without it, you suffer penalties to the magic roll based on how many magic types you don't have the base knowledge in - it's just not that easy to switch back and forth since you don't have the basics down.

 

Maybe you need some number of spells (or points invested in spells) before you can learn more advanced spells, or even grow your existing spells (oh you can't bump up the DC on that spell - you need more Ignis Magic to open up that enhancement).

 

However, to me, these would all be functions of the magic system and the purchases, not a complication outside the magic abilities themselves.  Plus, that will let the spellcasters have other complications that differentiate them from other spellcasters.

 

EDIT:  A separate framework could be required for each type of magic, making it even tougher to know too many.  Considering I need the Magic skill, plus nine science skills, plus Enchantment to create a Talisman, plus EGO and INT to run the two skills, plus Spell Research if I want to customize my own spells, plus the relevant Crafting skill if I want to make enchanted items, the initial entry price seems pretty steep if I want to use all nine magical branches.

 

The -1 limitation reduces the spell costs a bit (after I pay the up front points to be a basic caster), but it also reduces the benefit of further limitations, reducing the incentive to add Gestures, Incantations or Side Effects.

[Mr. R]

On 10/16/2022 at 7:41 AM, LoneWolf said:

Unable to cast Spells: (Infrequently, Fully) the character cannot cast spells at all.  The character still has a magic roll but cannot cast spells.  This complication is designed for characters that can create magic items, but not cast spell.  This is worth 20 pts.

 

I like this idea.  The blacksmith who can make magic weapons, the seamstress who can create outfits that act as armour, the jewel crafter who can make a broach that detects poison.  YES!