Is Teleport a "Mental Power?"

[phydaux]

Say I have a VPP, and one of the limitations is Mental Powers Only.

 

So you get the usual - Ego Attack, Telekinesis, all the rest.  You can hand wave Flight as "I'm using my telekinesis to lift myself."  All standard stuff.

 

Would Teleport fit?

 

I only know of one instance in lit/rpg where Teleport was lumped in with psionic powers - Classic Traveler.  And even back in the 70s I felt it didn't fit.

 

If you were GM would you allow it?  If you were a player would you try to justify it?

[wcw43921]

You could define mental-based teleportation as either "telekinetic space-warping" or "mentally disassembling oneself, then self-projecting to the destination and reassembling oneself."

 

Actually, you can define just about any power as being mentally based.  Super strength?  Mentally augmented muscles.  Invisibility?  Clouding people's minds.  Invulnerability?  Telekinetic force field.  Heat rays?  Telekinetic stimulation at the molecular level.  Walking through walls?  See teleportation.  X-Ray vision?  Clairsentience to see through walls.  Matter-eating?  Mentally transmuting the matter in question to something edible.

 

Hope that helps.

[steriaca]

Well, yes. That is an advantage of a special effect based game. Any attack can be changed into a mental attack with the right advantages. And similar to movement, defense, and other powers. So should a VVP actually take a disadvantage to limit a VVP by special effects? Well, that depends on the work between the player and the game master.

[Hugh Neilson]

My approach to SFX limitations on VPPs is to set out a rough outline of what the character can and (more importantly) cannot achieve.  If all we have is "a common SFX so it can always be affected by the same SFX-targeting adjustment powers", it would need to be a pretty obvious special effect in  campaign that often has adjustment powers targeting it to be worth even -1/4.

[name_tamer]

FWIW, early editions of GURPS Psionics treated Teleportation as one of the "Psi Powers."

[DShomshak]

SF has long included teleportation among the standard psi powers. See for instance Bester's The Stars My Destination. In McCaffrey's "Pern" series, the dragons of that world teleport and form telepathic bonds to their riders: It's all psi.

 

Dean Shomshak

[Duke Bushido]

Not just GURPS, but Traveller has classed T-port as a psionics ability since the seventies.

 

 

However......

 

Even with all that being said, ultimately are dealing with two different things, neither of which is actually real.  Saying T-port is or is not a psi power is akin to declaring that the Jack-legged divot weasel does indeed belong to the gentifcant phylum.  Neither of those things are real, either.

 

As someone has already pointed out, this game divorces mechanica and sfx, and encourages the application of any sfx that the player desires.  It could just as easily be a divine power (I ask the almighty Kierczak to send to the place), a knowledge power (I have learned how to identify nexus points in the world around us), or even wind powers (a create a gust of wind so fast that it outruns time, and carries me to my location in what to the world around me appears as an instantaneous blink).

 

Because as players become more and more comfortable,with this, they get better at creating interesting justifica-- uhm, SFX, that I do what Hugh does when I allow an SFX as a limitation or boon:

 

I record how this limits you, and how it does not.

 

 

[unclevlad]

Some interesting autoerror examples in there, Duke...

 

D&D also did "psionic teleport" powers...Dim Door, and IIRC both standard and greater teleport.  

 

But I agree with Duke and Hugh...especially when it comes to powers like this.  I've done "Teleport Powers" VPPs that include a Blast or HA vs. Power Def...using one's Teleport to just quickly shift/shift back in a disruptive manner...but if the target *has* Teleport themselves...it doesn't work, period.  And, no, it's not worth a lesser advantage the way NNDs are.  If you want an HA that's AVAD (Mental Def)...I'd be fine with that, as it's connecting the SFX to mechanical elements associated with mental powers.

 

Mental Powers already covers a nice group.  Explicitly there's Blast and Telepathy;  there's mental Entangles and Transforms (these are expensive and rather specialized, I'll grant).  And TK is NOT a Mental Power because it can have so many non-mental bases.  Heck, 6E1 295 has the big Psychokinesis block.

 

Note that if you want to buy Teleport *outside* the VPP, then slapping on a Psionic SFX...no one will object.  It's when you're trying to use an SFX limitation to get a cost savings that it matters.  Or, conversely, an open question on a VPP is "how much is this Limited Powers-class lmitation worth?"  Mental Powers only feels like Limited Class of Powers, -1/2...if it's as noted above.  If it's covering movement powers as well?  That's at most Slightly Limited, and as Hugh noted, might not be worth anything if you try to stretch it too far.  IIRC, I put -1 on Teleports Only, when it means only different builds of Teleport...for me, this means teleport and apport (teleport you to me), all potential flavors of UBO (rescue teleport...apport with UAA allows fetching an unconscious person trapped in rubble), and gates or not.  Throw in Teleport-linked SFX for Blast, RKA, and HA, all of which must take an AVAD, and I dropped it to -3/4, I think.  YMMV;  this is art, not science.

[Hugh Neilson]

At the same time, I think it is important to recall we are starting from a base "can generate any ability with any SFX".  I would expect a substantial limitation if I can only access a small subset of powers. Even "attacks only" carves out a lot of VPP utility.

[dmjalund]

Teleport is a Movement Power. it's range is measured in meters. For it to be a Mental Power it's range would be Line-of-Sight

[unclevlad]

1 hour ago, dmjalund said:

Teleport is a Movement Power. it's range is measured in meters. For it to be a Mental Power it's range would be Line-of-Sight

 

Mental Entangle doesn't have LOS range, nor does Telekinesis.  Neither would a Blast, AVAD vs. Mental Defense, OMCV vs. DMCV, Does Body.

[steriaca]

1 hour ago, unclevlad said:

 

Mental Entangle doesn't have LOS range, nor does Telekinesis.  Neither would a Blast, AVAD vs. Mental Defense, OMCV vs. DMCV, Does Body.

Mental Teleportation doesn't need LOD range. You don't need to roll to hit your hex after all. You just move there and hope you don't reform inside objects and walls.

[unclevlad]

Actually, if you don't have a targeting sense spotting the hex...can't be perceived, or it's obscured...you DO need to make an attack roll against DCV 3...with various penalties.  But DCV 3 is 'hit the hex.'

 

Nothing about Teleportation suggests there is a "mental teleportation" that is in any way distinct;  I'm not sure what advantages you're considering, other than perhaps "uses OMCV vs DCV"?  In itself that wouldn't change anything else...

[Duke Bushido]

34 minutes ago, unclevlad said:

;  I'm not sure what advantages you're considering, other than perhaps "uses OMCV vs DCV"?  In itself that wouldn't change anything else...

 

 

Well, off the bat, you'd get to target that DCV 3 hex with your superior OMCV instead of your OCV.. 

 

And going all-in: Based on ECV- gives you LOS range for very few points relative to buying more range, especially given that when the sky is right, I can see Mars- sometims Saturn!

 

 

(I should probably,get some life support, too.....)

 

 

[unclevlad]

28 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

 

 

Well, off the bat, you'd get to target that DCV 3 hex with your superior OMCV instead of your OCV.. 

 

And going all-in: Based on ECV- gives you LOS range for very few points relative to buying more range, especially given that when the sky is right, I can see Mars- sometims Saturn!

 

 

(I should probably,get some life support, too.....)

 

 

 

Heh.  Of course, for any non-mentalist, OMCV is a near-universal dump stat.

 

HD says BoECV (which is 5E only, it was completely reworked for 6E) can't be applied to Teleport.  Stated reason is, it can't be applied to self-only abilities...which is derived from the basis (5E 253) that a non-ranged power doesn't become ranged.  The max distance you can move, is not the same as the power range of, let's say, a Blast.

 

In 6E, it'd be ACV, alternate combat value.  OMCV vs. DCV is +0 for a non-mental power, but it does NOT grant LOS or negate the range mods.  (6E1 p. 318)

 

And....nahhh, you won't need LS.  I'm sure the air on Mars is just fine to breathe!!!  Go for it!!!  NICE!!!! range on that Teleport too, man!!!

HMMMmm...current distance, Earth to Mars, is shown as 60 million miles...convenient.  That's 100,000,000 km.  Note that's shorter than usual;  the average distance is about 140M miles.  But, ok...10m, all we need is MegaScale at + 2 3/4 (1m = 10,000,000 km).  The Range Mod for 100,000,000 km is only -67.  

 

No Problem, you  can do it!!!!

 

 

 

 

[Duke Bushido]

8 hours ago, unclevlad said:

.  The Range Mod for 100,000,000 km is only -67.  

 

No Problem, you  can do it!!!!

 

 

 

 

 

See?!

 

And a hex has a DMCV of zero!

 

So the range penalty is only -65!

Totally worth it!

 

 

 

[LoneWolf]

What is the value you gave Mental Powers Only?  When you buy a power including a VPP you should get what you pay for, but only what you pay for.  When you place a limitation on the VPP it should reduce its flexibility.   By default, a VPP is limited by type or special effect.  The book even states that the power are “typically, a set of powers limited to a particular special effect”.  By taking the limitation Mental Power Only you have further restricted that. If you can put any power in the VPP you should not be taking the limitation mental power only, or it should be a -0 limitation.  What actual powers can you not put in your VPP?  If you don’t have an answer for that you should not have taken the limitation.  Personally, if you have more than a -1/4 value for the limitation I would not allow it.  Even if the value of the limitation is -1/4 I would still want to know what you cannot put in the pool.

[unclevlad]

You're still misreading the rules about a VPP.  The baseline is any power, any special effect.  The wording you cite does not change this;  it says that it's commonly done, but it doesn't create a requirement to do so.  It's commentary, not rules text.

 

1.  6E VPPs have the flexibility to replace elemental controls, and have, IMO, been constructed to do that, by decoupling pool size from control cost.  ECs are designed for powers linked by a special effect.

 

2.  It allows a significant cost savings, particularly when it's a combat-switchable pool (0 phase or half phase to switch).  If the control cost is 60 and you're going the half phase to switch...that's 45 points.  A -1/2 limit for the specific powers/SFX available, shaves 15 points off.  You may have other limitations;  I use the common modifier Requires a Skill Roll (because the Power skill used to manipulate the pool, can be used to activate the powers).  That's another -1/2.  Common mods also decrease the control cost...so 45 would --> 22.  Still, the powers/SFX limitation is saving 8.

 

3.  I organize powers into 7 categories in my build process:  offense, defense, movement, senses, health (life support and regen), and special (invis, desolid, shape shift, and utility stuff like Create Object or Extra-Dimensional Storage from the APGs).  The 7th category is broad-scale multipliers...big Summons, Multiform, and Duplication.  Those dictate special handling.  Of these, having multiple offensive or movement powers is somewhat, to largely, redundant...you only use 1 at a time.  Having different classes of attack powers...a Flash and a Blast, say...is generally better than having 2 Blasts.  The value of the VPP "class of powers" limitation starts here.  Which of these are allowed?  Which attack styles (hamper vs. damage) are allowed?  It's far less about the flexibility you *lose*...it's the flexibility you retain.

 

The most restrictive interpretation for Mental Powers Only would be the explicitly defined Mental Powers in RAW:  Mental Blast and Illusions, Mind Control, Link, and Scan, and Telepathy.  This is sharply limited.  Mind Control, Mental Blast, and Mental Illusions are largely offensive powers.  Mind Scan, Mind Link, and Telepathy are all special powers.  No defense powers.  No movement powers.  Also, the powers share common weaknesses, such as the breakout roll that's common to most.  Personally, I'd consider this to be a rather large limitation.  -1/2 at least, and arguably even -3/4 because they so strongly overlap.

 

The more you start adding...the less this would go.  Telekinesis?  It has some value for offense (it's extremely expensive for an attack power, tho, which limits things), and has utility applications.  LOTS of powers can be given a "mental power makeover"...Entangle's explicit, and mental Entangles are nasty.  Mental Flash...OMCV vs. DMCV, goes against Mental Def, not Flash Def, IPE...but still executes as a, say, sight and sound flash attack.  Nice!  Completely different style of hampering.  No breakout roll.  But they won't last as long because you can't buy as many dice, due to the advantages.  These are common psionic powers in multiple genres, or have their mechanics strongly linked by explicit rules, to the notion of a mental power.

 

The there's the power tricks.  If TK is allowed...a TK power trick is the TK blast.  It's a Blast;  at most, it'll tend to have OMCV vs. DCV.  Telekinetic Flight is opening up a whole new  category:  a movement power.  (In fact, it's instructive, IMO, to consider a VPP where the powers limitation is Telekinetics...it allows offensive and defensive powers, and movement...the 3 big groups for a VPP.  So while Telekinetics sounds like a tighter limit than the restrictive Mental Powers...in functionality, it probably is more relaxed.)  Telepathy has a bonus to DCV based on reading the target's plan of attack from his surface thoughts.  And so on.

 

Then there's the loosely associated "psionic powers" like psionic teleport.  How often does a mentalist do this in comics or literature?  Forget D&D;  things might be thrown in simply to avoid gimping the psion.  Conversely, perhaps you feel that making short leaps...combat movements only...is fitting, but a 300 mile jump doesn't fit. 

 

Final point:  always remember that a class-of-powers limitation on the VPP, only applies to the VPP.  If you want a mental teleport, and you'll pay for it outside the VPP...fine.  You can keep the VPP narrowly defined, and thus get a decently-sized limitation for it.  

[Hugh Neilson]

I tend to question the limitation values applied by RAW.  "Only attacks" seems far more  limiting than the -1/4 suggested. Compare to "only magic", the other example of a -1/4 limitation.  "Only drains and Aids" at -1 seems a much greater limitation than "losing half of the VPP's versatility" to me.

 

The challenge is that the VPP's flexibility can rapidly exceed that of a Multipower.  Those same 6 powers in a 60 point Multipower with variable slots would cost 132 points.  A Cosmic VPP with 60 points and a 30 point control cost is 60 + 90 = 150.  That -1/2 control limitation drops it to 120 - I could only have five powers in the Multipower.

 

Of course, the question then becomes whether the VPP is too cheap or the Multipower is too expensive. Maybe those Cosmic modifiers are too low.

 

Yet I have not seen VPPs prove hideously unbalancing in play, when compared to Multipower users.  Of course, many Multipowers are already "attacks only" with no added limitation and don't make full use of their potential versatility (pop some Regeneration, Megascale T-Port or such in there for out of combat utility, maybe? or a "resistant defense" slot in case you really want to turtle up...).

 

EDIT: Remove Regeneration and add Recovery, or perhaps 1 1/2d6 Healing, Variable Effect (any one Characteristic; +1/2), 0 END (+1/2), Reduced Re-use (1 turn; + 1 1/2). There's room for another +1/2 advantage in a 60 AP budget.

[unclevlad]

Regen is a Special power.  Can't be put into a framework.  I agree that the RAW limitations are not well-considered, tho;  as I wrote, I build along different notions.

 

The comparison between an MP and a VPP, and the most efficient methods to construct them...that's a whole nuther topic.  I *rarely* use variable slots in an MP;  same with 0 Phase, same with No Skill Roll.  I don't think they're too low, myself;  I think it's more likely that you're considering variable slots.  We all have our build patterns, tho, and aren't necessarily good at shifting away from them.

[Tech]

The GM and player need to talk over what can be put into the VPP. A limitation was taken so some things aren't going to be allowed in it. As was stated, Teleport is a movement power; the special effects of it are the question. Personally, I would allow TP in the VPP but how much of a limitation was taken is the factor.

[steriaca]

As everyone keeps saying, exactly what is allowed in a VVP, is decided by both the player and game master working together to declare if these powers with these advantages and these limitations are allowed. It's a tough road. It'll take time.

[Hugh Neilson]

On 10/27/2022 at 11:37 PM, unclevlad said:

Regen is a Special power.  Can't be put into a framework.  I agree that the RAW limitations are not well-considered, tho;  as I wrote, I build along different notions.

 

I'll replace it...that Healing is more versatile anyway.

 

On 10/27/2022 at 11:37 PM, unclevlad said:

The comparison between an MP and a VPP, and the most efficient methods to construct them...that's a whole nuther topic.  I *rarely* use variable slots in an MP;  same with 0 Phase, same with No Skill Roll.  I don't think they're too low, myself;  I think it's more likely that you're considering variable slots.  We all have our build patterns, tho, and aren't necessarily good at shifting away from them.

 

I rarely see variable slots in an MP either.  But in the VPP. everything is effectively variable.

 

On 10/28/2022 at 10:20 AM, steriaca said:

As everyone keeps saying, exactly what is allowed in a VVP, is decided by both the player and game master working together to declare if these powers with these advantages and these limitations are allowed. It's a tough road. It'll take time.

 

Or just take no limitation and have any power you want. A Multipower is not required to have any common SFX.

 

[steriaca]

1 hour ago, Hugh Neilson said:

Or just take no limitation and have any power you want. A Multipower is not required to have any common SFX.

We ARE talking about Variable Power Pools, NOT Multipowers. Yes, I know that Variable Power Pools are described as "Multipowers On Steroids", BUT they ARE two different things.

[Duke Bushido]

On 10/27/2022 at 11:08 PM, Hugh Neilson said:

I tend to question the limitation values applied by RAW.  "Only attacks" seems far more  limiting than the -1/4 suggested.

 

 

I meant to adress this earlier; didnt want to touchscreen again so soon. 

 

I submit that this particular suggestion-- only attacks is -1/4-- has a small bit of metagaming behind it.  

 

Given that even today, the average RPG fan is most-motivated by the chance to beat something up, and that typically characters are built offense-first (with most published characters touching their various campaign limits in combat-related powers, and almost nowhere else)

 

-anyway, I submit that the value of -1/4 was suggested based on the mindset that "but beating people up is the whole point of this game!  That's the good stuff!  That is precisely what you wamt to do!  Limiting the pool to 'only the powers I am most-likely going to want anyway' isnt much of a Limitation!"

 

Not saying That this is the reasoning behind that, but certainly the case can be made.

 

It is one of the reasons I always "charged just a bit more" (via reduced limitation values) for Desolid as the perfect defense-  all the various "Desolid, but only versus damage" type builds that started pouring out of 4e.

 

To be fair, I was generous enough when it made sense: yes; Johnny Nova probably should be nigh-immune to fire-related damage, etc.

 

But when your Ninja can dodge bullets from a hail,of minibus (via Desolid) and gets dropped by a musket ball with 'affects Desolid," there might just be a better way....