Speed chart substitution

[iena]

Hello everybody,

I'm an italian fan of Hero System and since years I'm trying to introduce the system in my rpg party but without success... a part the barrier of the language (I'm the official translator of the party) the main problem still remain the speed chart. My friends can't accept the complexity of this approach (even if I understand it's the best one)... and I was wondering if a well balanced alternative exists. Have you ever applied a different approach? Looking forward to read about your experience.

[Duke Bushido]

The most interesting substitution I am aware of (someone suggested it on these boards a long time back; I have never tried it myself) to win over players who are used to rolling initiative is to bring a D12 to the game.  At the beginning of each phase, roll the d12.  Anyone with a Speed of greater than or equal to the result on the roll "has initiative" this phase.  Actions proceed in the order of the Character's individual Speed scores (highest SPD chooses first, moving downward), and ties are broken by highest DEX score.

 

In any individual scenario, resukts may be wildly different, but across the entire campaign, it should work out about the same as using the chart.

 

The only modification I would make to this is that you track the number of rolls.  If, upon the sixth roll, a 2 has not turned up, then declare that roll to be a 2 (so that your NPCs and "normies" can at least try to get out of the way).  If, upon the 12th roll a 1 has not yet come up on the die, then declare that roll to be a 1.  This gives the elderly, the infirm, and the children a moment to attempt to protect themselves.

 

Or you can ignore all that and just roll the die. 

 

There was allegedly a unique methid of handling Speed in the Champions LARP, but I do not know what it was.  I have attemoted to read that book more than a dozen times, and I have get to make it beyond page thirty without falling asleep.

 

No; that is not hyperbole.  There is something about the writing style that knocks me out like a light.  I had a similar wxperience with a Microbiology text book back in college:  I could not read ten pages without falling into it face-first, sound asleep.

 

I am sure that someone else here has read it, and may offer the alternative chosen for that book (if it will work at the tabletop, anyway).

 

It is kind of frustrating, because I bought that book specifically to learn what that Speed option was, but it seems I am destined to never know. 

 

 

[LoneWolf]

One thing that might help is to look at the SPD chart as a tool.  Don’t try and understand it just use it.  I have no idea how a microwave oven works, but I know how to use one.  I don’t need to know the science of how a microwave cooks my food, all I need to know is how to use it.

 

The best way to do this is to look up your SPD in the book and mark down what phases you go in.   Then when the GM calls a phase you go in you act.   The SPD chart seems complex but in reality, it is not.  Chances are after doing this for a couple of characters with different SPD you will realize how it works.  The SPEED QUICK-REFERENCE TABLE on page 17 of Volume 2 of the Hero System 6th edition book is probably easier to understand than the actual SPD chart. 
 

[Lord Liaden]

3 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

The most interesting substitution I am aware of (someone suggested it on these boards a long time back; I have never tried it myself) to win over players who are used to rolling initiative is to bring a D12 to the game.  At the beginning of each phase, roll the d12.  Anyone with a Speed of greater than or equal to the result on the roll "has initiative" this phase.  Actions proceed in the order of the Character's individual Speed scores (highest SPD chooses first, moving downward), and ties are broken by highest DEX score.

 

In any individual scenario, results may be wildly different, but across the entire campaign, it should work out about the same as using the chart.

 

The only modification I would make to this is that you track the number of rolls.  If, upon the sixth roll, a 2 has not turned up, then declare that roll to be a 2 (so that your NPCs and "normies" can at least try to get out of the way).  If, upon the 12th roll a 1 has not yet come up on the die, then declare that roll to be a 1.  This gives the elderly, the infirm, and the children a moment to attempt to protect themselves.

 

 

I first encountered this alternative method to running SPD in an article from issue #21 of Hero's old Adventurers Club periodical. There are a few details from that article I'd add to Duke's accurate rundown. One is an option to ignore post-Segment 12 altogether. Any time a player rolls a 12, they get a Recovery and can perform any other post-12 actions.

 

The other is to compensate for sheer random chance producing so many bad rolls in a row that a player doesn't get to act at all that Turn. If a player misses a roll they add 1 to their SPD number for the subsequent roll, cumulatively for each successive roll, until they succeed, after which the target number resets to their base Speed.

 

I'd just like to add a correction to the original article, which Duke naturally transcribed. The article says that a character gets to roll each Phase for action. "Phase" refers to the Segment in a Turn on which a character is predetermined to act according to the Speed Chart. It would be more accurate to say that players get to roll each Segment. (Just wanted to avoid confusion for the OP.)

[Hugh Neilson]

One issue with the d12 is a series of high rolls so no one moves. Using smaller dice if speeds are lower also works (e.g. if no one in the game has a Speed higher than 7, a d8 works fine, with an 8 allowing a recovery (or a 7 allowing everyone to move and then take a recovery).

 

I've seen other approaches, but they tend to still rely on the SPD chart phases to some extent, so probably not as suitable for the OP.

 

An even easier approach is to set all characters' SPDs equal.  The chart now makes little difference.  Everyone moves in order of DEX, then we start again.  Pick some number of actions after which a recovery is taken (or you just don't get in-combat recoveries).

 

A more complex option is to set equal speeds for PCs, but vary NPC speeds.  For example, all PCs and significant NPCs have 6 SPD (and get a recovery after 6 moves).  Mooks get SPD 3 (so they move once for every 2 moves the PCs get) and non-combatants get SPD 2 (so one move for every 3 PC moves).  The SPD chart is then mostly invisible to the PCs, but they see its impact in gameplay.  If the players later want to move a bit faster (or a bit slower), the SPD chart can be introduced at that time.

[DentArthurDent]

I’ve used an alternate system a few times. It works well for lower powered games when most characters have a similar speed.

 

Average characters act 4 times in a 12 second turn. They get 4 Phases.

Above average characters get 5 Phases. Their extra action comes after everyone else has finished their 4 Phases.

Great characters characters get 6 Phases. Their extra actions come after everyone else has finished 2 Phases and then again after 4 Phases.

 

Below average characters get 3 Phases and miss their 4th action.

 

We made an adjustment for a new player (new to role-playing) who didn’t feel like their 5 Speed was much of an advantage.

For them we let all 5 Speed players take their extra action after everyone else had completed just 2 Phases.

(It’s tough to argue with a Ceramics Engineer with several patents. And eventually she became the biggest proponent of the Hero Speed chart.)

 

[unclevlad]

Yeah, that approach sets things up pretty well and is fairly straightforward.  Even SPD 2 can be accommodated, for minion-types.  They don't get their 2nd action.

 

It's a Speed Chart of a sort, but a lot simpler.

 

I might make one simplification:

Character	1st Action	2nd Action	Bonus Action	3rd Action	4th Action	Bonus Action
Minion	Yes			Yes
Below avg	Yes	Yes		Yes
Average	Yes	Yes		Yes	Yes
Above avg	Yes	Yes	Yes	Yes	Yes
Great	Yes	Yes	Yes	Yes	Yes	Yes

 

So there's a more time-oriented approach to it.  

Alternately, if you want to go with something closer to the time chart:

 

Character	1st Action	2nd Action	Bonus Action	3rd Action	4th Action	Bonus Action
Minion		Yes			Yes
Below avg		Yes		Yes	Yes
Average	Yes	Yes		Yes	Yes
Above avg	Yes	Yes		Yes	Yes	Yes
Great	Yes	Yes	Yes	Yes	Yes	Yes

 

 

The poster's first approach lets everyone act for a bit.  This downplays the advantage of speed;  the slower characters are still getting lots of actions before the faster characters' edge can come into play.  Putting the Great speed into the middle, is giving them that advantage noted for the 5 SPD.  You could, as noted, put the first extra action between 2nd and 3rd for both 5 and 6 SPDs.  

This is a lot simpler *visually*, if nothing else.

[pawsplay]

Here's a very simple solution, that closely mimics the Speed Chart. First phase, everyone gets a turn in Dex order. Then everyone gets their second phase, in Dex order. Then third. People with a really high Speed get a bunch of phases in a row at the end, which can heighten some of their tactics but also costs them opportunities to use defenses.

[Tech]

Another alternate is SPD is the number of times someone can do something in a turn. You can use them at any time on any PHA. Your SPD 4 wants to attack on 1's? Go ahead; you have 3 more. Of course, other people can use their 1's as well. I used this in a different game and it actually worked well, not crazy chaotic like it would be expected. It forced people to think.

 

For those thinking that it could be a mess for everyone to take their last PHA and dodge, it gives others who've saved their moves a chance to pound on you with perhaps an AE attack, etc.

[iena]

Thanks to you all guys, for your contributions and support but my party has senteced... We will try with Mutants and masterminds... It's a D20 system based quite easy to learn... I'm sorry for this but my dream is over... 

[Lord Liaden]

Not over, just put on hold. No few gamers, when they see the limitations of System X, discover that Hero lets them do what they wanted to but couldn't. Try to be patient, your chance will come.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I think people find the speed chart etc intimidating, but only the GM has to worry about that.  Each character has their own speed and they only have to worry about that, not anyone else.  The chart is irrelevant and dividing up 12 numbers evenly as possible is not exactly brain surgery.

[dmjalund]

the GM can make it easier by just use the speed charts to make a list of action order, which you would do with any other initiative system

[unclevlad]

15 hours ago, dmjalund said:

the GM can make it easier by just use the speed charts to make a list of action order, which you would do with any other initiative system

 

An action order for the entire turn?  Not sure that's easier.  

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

An action order for the entire turn?  Not sure that's easier.  

 

I do that every time I ran a game as the GM, so I knew who goes in what order with DEX etc.  But its more than a player needs to know, they only need to know their own Speed.

[Duke Bushido]

I must admit: this conversation comes up a lot, and it wierd to me: most of the people I know who play Champions cite the Speed chart as being one of the biggest draws (myself included).

 

 

[Lord Liaden]

I love it myself -- makes things much more orderly than in other games with random initiative systems. But maybe players' experience with those other games creates a bias toward randomness, because IME the most frequent complaint I've gotten is that the Speed Chart makes play "too predictable."

[LoneWolf]

I agree with Duke Bushido that the SPD chart is one of the defining things about the hero system.  It allows so many different tactics beside the old trade blows.  A single point of SPD can be a huge advantage especially in a heroic campaign where the SPD tends to be lower.  

 

If I am a 4 SPD and my opponent is a 3 SPD, I start out defensive in 12.  Then in phase 3 I go balls to the walls offensive.  My opponent can either cancel his next phase or take my attack.  If he cancels, I keep on the offensive on my 6.   If he does not cancel and attacks me on 4, I cancel my 6 and switch to defensive.  If he acts in 8, I cancel my 9 to go defensive, if he had canceled his 8, I again go all-out offensive and still go defensive in 12 if I need to.  Basically, I get 1-2 phases where I can safely attack him while still being defensive for all of his attacks.  If my opponent is faster than me, I can sometimes go mostly defensive and wait for him to make a mistake that I can exploit. 
 

[Hugh Neilson]

OK, first, I love the Speed Chart. But it seems clear that the OP's players do not love the Speed chart. The Speed Chart is not the sole virtue of the Hero system.

 

A lot of us are suggesting modifications to get a result similar to the Speed Chart - different numbers of actions for each character or at least type of character.  That seems to be the breaking point, rather than the selling point, for iena's group. 

 

So get rid of it.

 

Everyone gets one action in DEX order.  Or, if you want some randomness in there, in order of [DEX + 1d6] or whatever other randomness you want to add.  Then we start again and everyone gets one action.

 

Tack on a recovery after every fourth action, and we simply have a game where everyone has a functional SPD of 4.

 

There may be some other items to tweak.  Adjustment Powers recover every 4 actions by default. Rather than track "per minute", the first "delayed recovery" advantage means the power lasts the entire combat.  After that, we are getting into long-lasting adjustments measured in out of combat time.

 

Flash works by segments, so it lasts for 1 action for every 3 rolled (or make it 15 points per 1d6 like a killing attack and now it lasts in actions).

 

Don't bother figuring out every element in the "four action" model - deal with timing issues as they come up in PC or NPC powers.

 

Hero is a toolkit.  The speed chart is a tool.  If it's not workable for your game, don't use that tool.

 

but but but...tactics!  but...but...but...characters who are faster or slower!

 

But that's not what iena's players want. Removing these aspects (different tactics; no action variance) won't break Hero. Including them will break it for iena's group.  So remove them.  That's the whole point of having a toolkit to begin with - make the game (you and) your players want to play!

 

Is it balanced?  Well, we gave everyone 20 points spent on SPD and that leaves them exactly the same points each to spend on other abilities.  It's just as balanced as if everyone chose to spend 20 points to have a 4 SPD.  The mooks are a little faster, but they will still be mooks.  Of, as GM, you can just skip some of their actions, effectively giving them a lower SPD, and see if the players notice.

[Foxiekins]

Have you considered card-based initiative?  Everyone draws a number of cards equal to their speed, and initiative goes in card order...  Then you do end of turn, and everyone draws for the next turn if the fight is still going on...  As a variation, you could draw 1 less card than your speed, except SPD 1 still draws a card...  Then after all cards are used, everyone SPD 2 or higher goes on Segment 12, followed by end of turn, and then a new draw...

[Hugh Neilson]

Another card-based initiative system uses either a full suit or a full deck for all involved in the combat.

 

Flip a card over.  The card = the segment, and everyone who would move on that segment gets a phase (1 - 10; J = 11; Q = 12).  King = post-segment 12.

[redsash]

I am considering a game based on Marvel's Defenders and related shows (street-level TV heroes plus a couple of powerhouses) for a bunch of new players. A few have [shudder] D&D backgrounds but that's all.

 

On a suggestion that I think I got somewhere here*, I have set all the PCs and combat-trained villains to 4 SPD as a default. They still pay, but I've removed SPD from their character sheets entirely. Since I'm writing all the characters, they are strictly bound to normal characteristics maxima unless they have a legit superpower or I have reason to suspect ridiculous levels of natural ability.

 

Untrained civilians (or characters with a 20-point complication) act at 2 SPD (so, once for every 2 PC actions). Super-fast characters (there are potentially a few Spider-people around) can pay for an 8 SPD (letting them act twice for every combat-trained PC action). If there comes a real speedster I would consider letting them act at 12 SPD (three times per "phase").

 

Using Rapid Attack, Two-Weapon Fighting, and high OCV and skill levels, Daredevil for instance is a punk-punking machine even at 18 Dex, 4 SPD (Lightning Reflexes and 2 Overall levels helps simulate the grace from an enhanced sense of balance -- he does everything at 15-). Luke Cage is very simple and effective but does not feel nearly as "fast".

 

For more calibration: my Hellcat has 23 DEX (legit superpower) and 4 SPD with rapid attack and all the Krav Maga. Spider-Gwen clocks in at 28 dex, 8 SPD, but doesn't have rapid attack or martial arts (everyone says she can't punch). Colleen Wing gets 20 Dex, and Kate Bishop overachieves at 23. Even though both are technically unenhanced humans, Kate outperforms Olympic athletes for fun, has been suspected of latent super-powers in the comics, and I wanted to differentiate her from the 18 Dex Clint Barton Hawkeye (with his one borderline-super Overall Level thanks to extensive training with the late Black Widow).

 

If my players like the system (how could they not?!) I will consider adding the Speed chart back in. It does facilitate such things as aborting to defensive actions better, and gives more granularity and strategic options to the characters. With everyone at Speed 4 the higher DEX characters can actually be at a disadvantage, since after acting they can't abort to dodge slower actions.

 

*Ah, it was Hyperman's 400pt DC writeups. Brilliant Superman hack: