CU Villains Analyzed and Classified

[DShomshak]

I wondered which origin types are particularly popular for the Champions Universe, and what types of Powers go with them the most.

 

Why? Because

1) It might point to character concepts that are cool but have been neglected; and

2) I’m a deranged nerd.

 

So this has been my spare-time project for the last week.

 

The whole CU is very large, but not all of it is equally propmoted. So I’m restricting the domain of analysis to the three volumes of Champions Villains. 292 characters total, not counting “agent” types such as Doctor Destroyer’s robots or Necrull’s Necrullticians. Individual characters only!

 

Here are the categories I devised when I did this analysis for my own Champions settings:

 

* SUPERNATURAL BEINGS are innately magical creatures: demons, dimensional conquerors, undead, etc. Examples: Bloodrage, Takofanes, Tyrannon. Also people with supernatural ancestry, such as Frag.

 

* MUTANTS were born with super-powers in their genes. I also include MUTATES, whose origin stories specifically say that their powers are the result of genetic manipulation (such as anyone given powers by Teleios). Examples: Menton, Hurricane, King Cobra.

 

* ROBOTS AND CONSTRUCTS are artificial beings. They have powers because somebody else built them that way. Robots are of course the result of tech; but golems and similar magically-created artificial beings fit in this category as well. Examples: Mechanon (duh), Syzygy.

 

* ENCHANTED characters were given powers by magic: a curse, a spell cast upon them, a magic potion, or the like. Examples: The Basilisk, Black Fang, Harpy.

 

* WEIRD SCIENCE covers all those lab accidents, exposures to industrial waste or atomic radiation, and empowerment processes that are scientific but aren’t specifically called out as exclusively based on gene-splicing. (Though some origin stories are not clear on this point.) Examples: Durak, Bulldozer, everyone in Project Sunburst, Sunspot.

 

 

* CYBORGS started out as normal people but gained powers by having bits added to them. Usually techm but I extend the concept to magical additions (such as a magical gem permanently affixed to the character’s body) or other surgical modification. Examples: Interface, Fiacho, Cairngorm, Howler.

 

* SORCERER characters cast spells. Examples: Doctor Yin Wu, Demonologist, Talisman.

 

* INVENTOR characters build gdgets (including, but not limited to, powered armor) or otherwise do things using SCIENCE! It’s implied that they can build new tech, even if they don’t have VPPs — they aren’t limited to just one device or suite of gadgets. Examples: Doctor Destroyer, Teleios, Utility, Binder, Doctor Philippe Moreau.

 

* TRAINING: If a character’s powers come down to extraordinary skills that aren’t super-tech or sorcery, they go here. Mostly martial artists, but there might be others such as a super-thief with incredible skills but uses mundane tech, Examples: Scorpia, Green Dragon, the Cahokian.

 

* WEAPON: The character’s powers derive from a device that could be taken away, whether it’s tech, magic, or undefined. Moreover, the character lacks the skills to replace or alter the device easily. Examples: the Warlord (he didn’t build his own battlesuit), the Crowns of Krim, Lazer.

 

* MASTERMINDS would be powerful just from the people and resources they command, even if they didn’t have any other source of power. Example: Franklin Stone and Doctor Philippe Moreau are “pure” Masterminds; Doctor Destroyer, King Cobra, and the Warlord have extensive organizations in addition to their personal powers; Baron Nihil and Tyrannon rule entire populations; and the Demonologist can Summon whatever demons he wants, while the Engineer creates robots at will.

 

* ALIENS aren’t human, but aren’t specifically supernatural. Extraterrestrials such as Herculan and Firewing go here; but so does Leviathan (a Lemurian) and Ape-X (uplifted gorilla). This is often a “meta-origin,” worth noting even if not being human is not specifically the source of powers (as Herculan was artificially given powers that are not natural to his species, the Fassai).

 

* OTHER is anything so rare and weird that it doesn’t justify creating a new category, or the source of the character’s powers simply is not known. Example: Timelapse, Glacier.

 

* COMPLEX: Characters can fit within multiple categories, as the dimension lord Skarn is both a supernatural being and a sorcerer, or Cheshire Cat is both a highly trained martial artist and gained teleportation powers through weird science. But if a character fits in three or more categories, I just call it “Complex.” Example: Josiah Brimstone has one set of powers as a sorcerer, another set from the demon that’s fused to him, and a third set from magical devices. OTOH I make exceptions for Masterminds and Aliens, as these tend to be meta-origins — and I try to limit assigning categories based on what’s really important to a character. Just packing a gun or minor gadget, for instance, isn’t enough to place a character as using a Weapon.

 

Placing characters in origin categories can be iffy. Like, I don’t assign every character with martial arts on the character sheet to the Training category: Often its just an add-on and the character would function as a superbeing without it. And as the discussion of Weird Scienct and Mutate characters suggests, the line between them can be blurry. But the goal is to spot patterns, not to precisely classify every character.

 

Here’s the result:

 

Supernatural Beings: 30 characters; 10%

Mutants/Mutates: 65 characters; 22%

Robots/Constructs: 8 characters; 3%

Enchanted: 23 characters; 8%

Weird Science: 54 characters; 18%

Cyborgs: 9 characters; 3%

Sorcerers: 33 characters; 11%

Inventors: 26 characters; 9%

Training: 31 characters; 11%

Weapon: 44 characters; 15%

Mastermind: 25 characters; 9%

Alien: 17 characters; 6%

Other/Unknown: 9 characters; 3%

Complex: 3 characters; 1%

 

Further analysis available if anyone's interested.

 

Dean Shomshak

[Duke Bushido]

I have two questions.

 

 

I have three quest--

 

I got some questions, Dude.

 

1) are you limiting yourself to 6e (5e?) because rhose are rhe books you have?

 

Are we going to make a game of this where anyone can join in?

 

Where does Foxbat fit here?  He is kinda (heavy stress) trained, but mostly for fitness.  He has a couple of gadgets but isnt really shown to be an inventor.

 

Where would a Batmunch-like character belong?  He is both trained and an inventor.

 

Why isn't a cyborg a gadget user?

 

Thanks in advance.

 

 

[Lord Liaden]

Interesting. I have to say, I have myself noticed a relative dearth of robots (including androids), cyborgs, and aliens in the ranks of both CU villains and heroes, compared to the previous incarnation of the CU through Fourth Edition. I believe I've identified certain contributory, but not exclusive factors influencing that discrepancy.

 

On the cyborg front, the current CU lacks any official scientific genius with that particular specialty, comparable to Dr. Samuel Levy, his proteges Heinous and Despite (see more about them from Classic Enemies and 4E VIPER), and Doc Digital  from High Tech Enemies for 4E. ARGENT has demonstrated impressive expertise with cybernetics and bionics, and could be further exploited to create more such supers. Champions Online built up a minor background character from the history of Justiciar (a cyborg superhero in 5E Champions of the North) called Cyberlord, who used to provide bionic augmentation for pay, but was repurposed as a full-on cyborg mastermind villain.

 

In regards to aliens, the "super" potential of the CU was greatly diminished by basing the Milky Way on the version used in the Star HERO line, which has almost no races with physical superpowers, although a number of them have "psionic" abilities. There's no one official comparable to Kryptonians or Saiyans. There is an out, though, in that many of these races can develop powers through the same methods that you identify for human supers. It's just that they usually develop them at a lower average power level, less frequently, and/or over a narrower range of abilities, than humans do, thus maintaining the usual comic-book conceit that our supers are our equalizer against superior alien tech.

 

Champions Beyond helps address that gap, identifying more than four dozen alien supers (mostly villains, but not all). Around half of them have full character sheets, while the rest are named and briefly described. For my part, I've sometimes repurposed alien supers from previous editions of Champions by adapting them to current continuity. For example, I made Myrmidon from the 4E Champions of the North source book a Malvan (his look was right, and his history didn't require a lot of rejiggering); while I redefined the winged alien hero Quasar from To Serve and Protect as a Thrinu, a slave of Firewing whom the Malvan had augmented with light powers so he could fight in the arena.

 

All that being said, I don't think we can discount the possibility of Steve Long, during his time as Hero's Line Developer, simply not having as much interest in those types of characters as in others.

[Duke Bushido]

38 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

.

 

All that being said, I don't think we can discount the possibility of Steve Long, during his time as Hero's Line Developer, simply not having as much interest in those types of characters as in others.

 

 

Most likely on the nose with that.

 

I know he has way more interest in Mechanon than anyone I ever played with did.

 

Yeah, I biught the book because I wanr to support where I can, but honestly, I would have been more interested on a book on Bulldozer or Daemon.  Never liked Ultron as a concept; even less interested in a blatant ripoff.

 

 

[Lord Liaden]

To be fair, Steve took Mechanon in different directions character-wise than Ultron, and his servants, bases, and resources are far more diverse than Ultron ever had. There's a lot more you could do with Mechanon. But that's just how I would approach him. You have every right not to like or be interested in him.

 

At least you don't seem to hate him as much as elves.

 

[Duke Bushido]

Thanks. 

 

I dont hate him; I am just completely uninterested.  Of course, now I am a bit scared: that whole "took him in a different direction" thing.

 

Once upon a time there was a woman who did a whole fan fiction (ie, ripoff) of Twilight.  The author encouraged her: "your stuff is prerty good, but you should go in a different direction,"

 

And that is how we got Fifty Shadws of Grey.

 

But no; there will never be anything that owns as much of my hatred as Tolkien-esque elves.  Never.  Though we recently had a certain head of state that almost tied.

 

 

Almost.

 

 

[DShomshak]

3 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

I have two questions.

 

 

I have three quest--

 

I got some questions, Dude.

 

1) are you limiting yourself to 6e (5e?) because rhose are rhe books you have?

 

Are we going to make a game of this where anyone can join in?

 

Where does Foxbat fit here?  He is kinda (heavy stress) trained, but mostly for fitness.  He has a couple of gadgets but isnt really shown to be an inventor.

 

Where would a Batmunch-like character belong?  He is both trained and an inventor.

 

Why isn't a cyborg a gadget user?

 

Thanks in advance.

 

 

1) Sure, I have other books, going all the way back to Enemies I, II and III. But I figured the CV trilogy best represented the core of the CU. Or at least what Steve Long thought the core of the CU should be.

 

2) Who am I to stop you?

 

3) Foxbat is an excellent case study. Yeah, he's physically competent, but not superhumanly so (apart from SPD 5). Knows martial arts, but not enough to compete on that alone (maximum 8d6 attack? Not hardly.) Some skills, but not amazing, either. So what category does he get? Weapon. A gun scaled for a Low Power Superbeing (50 active pts) and a few minor gimmick-gadgets. And that's it. He's had the Ping-Pong Gun since his first appearance, and there's no indication he'll ever change it much or develop other tech.

 

4) Batguy would fit into Training (he's supposed to be among the world's best HTH fighters and detectives -- though I remember a friend reading an assessment that he is not #1 in either), and he might count as an Inventor if he develops new gadgets fairly often. I will grant that being a billionaire lets him be an Inventor by proxy. If you want to say the resources of Wayne Enterprises make him a Mastermind I won't argue too hard, though that seems to be more a justification for him being able to have a Batmobile, Batplane, and Bat-I-Don't-Know-What All, rather than a source of institutional power or Followers.

 

I was never an enormous Bat-fan, so I'll defer to anyone who says they know the character well.

 

4) By "gadget user," do you mean Weapon? Because a weapon can be taken away. If it requires major surgery to take away the source of a character's powers, thry're probably a cyborg.

 

And thank you for being interested!

 

Dean Shomshak

[DShomshak]

On reflection, the shortage of robots and androids does not surprise me as much as I first thought. Thinking back on the much more populous Marvel Universe, how many robot villains were there as of, say, 1995? (About the time I stopped paying attention.) Using OHOTMU as the standard for who's important, I can recall Ultron, Machinesmith, the Super-Adaptoid, the Mad Thinker's Awesome Android, Dragon-Man (an alchemical construct IIRC), Master Mold (representing the Sentinels), Nimrod, Quasimodo, and... um... It, the Living Colossus? Plus the Kree Sentry robot and the big HYDRA robot whose name escapes me at the moment. But AFAIK only Ultron and the Sentinels are that significant. And Doombots, but they're agents. So I son't think robots are under-represented in the CU. But OTOH -- which gets to one of the reasons for this exercise -- it also means that if a GM wants to expand their version of the CU in a direction that hasn't been done to death already, robots, androids and other constructs are one way to go.

 

Dean Shomshak

[DShomshak]

Indeed, the CU as a whole has scads of alien characters: all the ones in Champions Beyond, all the Lemurians -- and I'd include the Empyreans as well. But they're largely shuffled off into their own subsettings, apparently not interacting much with the rest of the CU. (Though two Lemurians make it into CV3.)

 

But you could argue that Skarn and Tyrannon aren't really "core characters" for the CU, either. I mean, they're literally in different planes of existence. Either they invade Earth, or PCs have to come to them. They also fill the same story role. So why put both of them in CV but not, say, Xarriel, who is also a mad tyrant with vast powers and nigh limitless resources who might invade Earth? I don't know, other than I wrote up a bunch of setting material for Skarn and Tyrannon and got it published in The Mystic World. So Steve had it all ready to cut and paste into CV1; didn't have anything comparable for Xarriel. Too bad. The CU can use a Darkseid expy as well as a Dormammu expy.

 

PS: Yes, I counted. Another category: Created By Me: 30 characters. 10%. And I'm not counting characters I rewrote, such as Tyrannon or Edouard and Anais Vandaleur.

 

Dean Shomshak

[Lord Liaden]

I'm pretty sure Champions Beyond was written after the Champions Villains trilogy, so Steve didn't have him at the time.

 

But I've been working on Xarriel's world and disciples for some time, hoping to eventually get them published under the Hall of Champions umbrella. Life keeps getting in the way, but someday...

[Lord Liaden]

1 hour ago, DShomshak said:

On reflection, the shortage of robots and androids does not surprise me as much as I first thought. Thinking back on the much more populous Marvel Universe, how many robot villains were there as of, say, 1995? (About the time I stopped paying attention.) Using OHOTMU as the standard for who's important, I can recall Ultron, Machinesmith, the Super-Adaptoid, the Mad Thinker's Awesome Android, Dragon-Man (an alchemical construct IIRC), Master Mold (representing the Sentinels), Nimrod, Quasimodo, and... um... It, the Living Colossus? Plus the Kree Sentry robot and the big HYDRA robot whose name escapes me at the moment. But AFAIK only Ultron and the Sentinels are that significant. And Doombots, but they're agents. So I son't think robots are under-represented in the CU.

 

Dean Shomshak

 

Those are just the villains. You can't leave out the Vision and Jocasta. There's also Galactus's original Punisher robot, and his android version of Air-Walker. Ultimo had a long history in Marvel Comics. If you're going to consider It, the Living Colossus, as a "robot" -- a human consciousness possessing a giant golem -- then you also have to include the Destroyer. Oh, and the name of the Hydra robots was "Dreadnought." And let's not forget the Life Model Decoys.

 

When Marvel was publishing a Godzilla series under license, that introduced the giant mech Red Ronin; and there was also a series with three licensed toy-based mechs, the Shogun Warriors.

 

I'm not as familiar with DC Comics, but Robotman and Red Tornado are both well-established heroes, while Superman has long been troubled by Metallo and Brainiac. And going back further into comics history, the T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents included the android Noman.

 

As I mentioned before, the 4E and earlier version of the CU leaned more heavily into robots and androids, including heroes, than the current one does. But I can think of a few others mentioned in a couple of books for the current setting. Champions Universe mentions the "living robot" Transac, a hero and member of the Chicago team, the Peacekeepers, who was murdered by Taipan. The Chinese employ a shape-shifting robot designated "Agent 57" in espionage. There was also a series of articles in Digital Hero running down the roster of the renowned Sentinels superhero team over time. One of those was the android Lightwave, a clear Vision homage, although his powers were rather different and his appearance was human, albeit aesthetically perfect. Lightwave was killed, but is survived by his android "brother," the villain Volt, who's still active today.

[DShomshak]

13 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

I'm pretty sure Champions Beyond was written after the Champions Villains trilogy, so Steve didn't have him at the time.

 

That would explain his omission, yes.  I forgot which edition Champions Beyond was.

 

As for robots: The man with the magic memory strikes again! I'm a bit ashamed of not remembering Life Model Decoys, because they were an important, ongoing element. Though I don't think I ever read any issues in which they appeared, OHOTMU tells me there was even a LMD incarnation of the Zodiac villain team, and of course they were brought back as central to a season of Agents of Shield on TV. And the Destroyer played a big role in what was IMO one of the best story arcs of Walt Simonson's superb run on Thor. At the other extreme... Ultimo? I never heard of Ultimo before this. Its appearances must have been before I started reading comics. Looking through my OHOTMUs, the only entry I found was in the Appendix to the 1983 edition, so I don't feel bad about missing that one. Once again, I am in awe of your encyclopedic knowledge!

 

Dean Shomshak

[Lord Liaden]

To me the Champions exemplar of a "complex" character is Kazeronin, first appearing for 4E in Watchers of the Dragon, and updated to 6E in Martial Enemies Vol. 1.  Hokoyama Seiki is the son of a Yakuza leader. As a boy he was unusually large and strong, and trained as a sumo wrestler, becoming a championship contender. Then random genetic testing discovered his strength came from a minor mutation, and he was barred from competing. Seiki's father never forgave him the "disgrace" he brought on their family. His father decreed that Seiki would henceforth be an enforcer, and had him trained in kenjustsu, which he took to as well as he had to sumo. But Seiki could never win his father's approval or forgiveness, and eventually tired of that treatment, leaving his family to become a freelance assassin.

 

During his assassin career Seiki came into possession of the powerful enchanted Katana of the Four Winds, and decided that was his ticket to the more lucrative career of super-mercenary. But he still lacked the defenses to compete with supers, so he contacted underworld armorer Wayland Talos to build him a suit of high-tech armor styled like traditional samurai armor. So Kazeronin is the only Champions character, or comic-style character generally, I can think of who has four different sources for his abilities: genetic mutation, martial-arts training, magic through enchanted artifact, and technology although not an inventor himself.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I like Mechanon fine, its Foxbat that eludes me, I just don't get his appeal.  Maybe my sense of humor doesn't extend in that direction or something.

[Lord Liaden]

7 hours ago, DShomshak said:

At the other extreme... Ultimo? I never heard of Ultimo before this. Its appearances must have been before I started reading comics. Looking through my OHOTMUs, the only entry I found was in the Appendix to the 1983 edition, so I don't feel bad about missing that one. Once again, I am in awe of your encyclopedic knowledge!

 

Dean Shomshak

 

Ultimo first appeared as an opponent for Iron Man back in 1966. It's a giant humanoid robot, nearly indestructible and irresistible. It's up there with the Destroyer as an unstoppable engine of death. Ultimo was controlled by the Mandarin for a long time, who claimed to have created it. But it was later revealed to have been constructed by an alien race as a doomsday weapon. So of course it wiped them out, before the few survivors tricked it into crashing into a volcano on Earth.

 

Tony Stark called Ultimo the incarnation of brute force. IIRC he also once summed up Ultimo's programming: "If it moves, it dies. If it resists, it dies first."

 

(And thanks for the compliment. I just happen to have a knack for recalling generally-useless information.)

[Lord Liaden]

18 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

I like Mechanon fine, its Foxbat that eludes me, I just don't get his appeal.  Maybe my sense of humor doesn't extend in that direction or something.

 

I don't get it either. But TBH I've never been able to really get behind "silly" supers. Maybe I take the genre too seriously, but I can only handle them in small doses. I mean, I'm fine with a little occasional comic relief, but the likes of Deadpool, Lobo, Ambush Bug, even John Byrne's She-Hulk... they just rub me the wrong way.

 

I do have to say, though, that Foxbat may be the most unique of all Champions characters. No comic-book hero or villain is quite like him. The Joker is insane, but it's a homicidal insanity, while Foxbat is essentially harmless. The Creeper acts like a loon, but it's just that, an act. Deadpool and She-Hulk know they're in a comic book, but they acknowledge the existence of the real world. Foxbat thinks the real world IS a silver-age comic book. He patterns his behavior and his "master plans" after comic-book cliches.

 

As you might imagine, I'm one of those who felt the old Champions group CLOWN was overkill. At least Steve Long didn't go overboard on comic-relief supers for his iteration of the CU. Besides Foxbat, I can also remember Bulldozer and Zigzag from the current villain roster who are there mostly for laughs. Pulsar also, to a lesser extent. Shrinker likes to humiliate superheroes, but her motives are spiteful and vindictive. The Incubus is the CU's homage to Mr. Myxyzptlk, so can be as funny or as deadly as you like.

[steriaca]

19 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

I'm pretty sure Champions Beyond was written after the Champions Villains trilogy, so Steve didn't have him at the time.

 

But I've been working on Xarriel's world and disciples for some time, hoping to eventually get them published under the Hall of Champions umbrella. Life keeps getting in the way, but someday...

I support this idea. My idea of Xarriel's Elite was basically a version of Darkseid's Elite (my favorite being my own idea of Sa-Des being a stand in for DeSade, and giving him a powerful Telepathy power by touch with a pain side effect). But I believe you said you were going to go another direction with the group. 

 

I do love the idea that each member of Xarriel's Elite having a Physical Complication of dying when Xarriel command them to (no matter where they are when Xarriel wishes for it), and each can be recreated by Xarriel at his will (using his VVP to somehow Summon or doing something similar). But this is getting off topic.

[Duke Bushido]

On 12/13/2022 at 11:06 PM, Duke Bushido said:

, but honestly, I would have been more interested on a book on Bulldozer or Daemon. 

 

 

 

Stupid auto Correct,

 

That was supposed to say Darkon.  I wouls have been more interested in the inner machinations of Darkon.

 

 

[Lord Liaden]

Wow. Considering how (deliberately) lame Darkon was, that must be a really low level of interest. (And I say that as one of Darkon's countrymen.)

[Duke Bushido]

3 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

 

I don't get it either. But TBH I've never been able to really get behind "silly" supers.

 

 

I don't generally get into silly, per se.  I dabble in Foxbat here and there, but mostly as a foil throughout an adventure.  I don't do the "thinks he is in a comic book" thing; I generally use him as a reasonably capable villain who generally fails because of his delusions of his own grandeur. 

I also tend to make him just a bit crazy- not the dangerous, unhinged kind, but the kind that suggests a supposition of extreme intelligence and superior cunning, to the point that a lot of his percieved "goofiness" is actually him daring his opponents to see through his plan / charade / disguise-- which they do, because he is niether as cunning as he believes himself to be, nor are his opponents as unintelligent as he believes them to be.  

 

Think "gifted high school kid who, thanks to a computer foul-up, ended up starting the year in a remedial class."  If you have ever seen it (or been that guy), it's pretty ugly: you (by which I mean me) aren't mature enough to realize that it isn't possible for anyone to be as stupid as you think they are (and you think that they are because for ten years, your teachers have taught you that they are).  Sas2 state of affairs, public education in this country), and you just make a complete ass of yourself, all the while incapable of figuring out why you aren't getting away with it.

 

That is about how I use him (when I use him).  He _is_ crazy, and he is a very real threat, but eventually he will screw it up on his own.

 

I never used him much, but I broke him out for a long arc with the youth group because I needed a "safe" villain- one I knew I would not take too "dark" as the adventure progressed.

 

 

3 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

Maybe I take the genre too seriously,

 

And when it comes,to superheeroes and spandex, I really have to force myself to take it seriously.  Sometimes it's... Difficult.

 

That difference alone probably explains why I don't mind using him.  I don't use him much, because ultimately, he makes himself incompetent, even in my versions of him.  When I use a more serious villain, I try to plan a _challenge_, and it is never a guarantee that the players will be victorious.  Ultimately, with Foxbat, you go into the game knowing that if they were so inclined, the players could just wait.  He will screw himself up eventually.

 

 

3 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

the likes of Deadpool, Lobo, Ambush Bug, even John Byrne's She-Hulk... they just rub me the wrong way.

 

Hey!  I know who one of those guys is!

 

And I hate him!

 

Though I am pretty sure I can figure out who She Hulk is, too.  The name is kind of a giveaway.  It's a Hulk, but female, right?  

 

What'd I win?  A car?  It feels like it should be a car.....

 

 

 

 

3 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

I do. Foxbat thinks the real world IS a silver-age comic book. He patterns his behavior and his "master plans" after comic-book cliches.

 

And that is why I don't use him quite that way.  If his plans were really,all cliches, he would be even _easier_ to foil, which would make him even less appealing to select as a villain.

 

I do the master plan thing, sure, but because it fits the way I use him.  However, his schemes are not cliche, even if they are _weird_.  I also enjoy having him commit "capers" that are perfectly legal, because it drives the players nuts, and it also fits the slightly-unhinged version I use to think that he _is_ comitting yet another perfect crime.

 

As an example, he was in need of some fast cash.  What would most low-level villains do?  Knock over a liquor store?  Rob a bank?

 

No!  He started the Church of Everybody Else is Going to Die, Evangelizing three times a day, six days a week (closed on Sundays), and made _huge_ stacks of cash.  One of his greatest capers!  So what if it was legal.

 

Uh, Boss, when does the caper start?  Ain't we got enough money yet?

 

First, Leroy, I dont ever want do hear such disgusting filth come from your mouth!

 

Caper?

 

Enough money!

 

Sorry, Boss.  So when do we start the caper?

 

This _is_ the caper!

 

Runnin' a church?  I think that's legal, Boss.

 

_Ahh_, but your forget: we are _not_ paying taxes, and I am _impersonating a preacher_!

 

Yeah, but I think that's all legal, too.  Joel Osteen been doin' it for years.

 

Yeah; I know.  I wish you'd take better care where you leave the Master Plan, Leroy.  He probably found it  at that Waffle House where you forgot it that time.

 

That was years ago!

 

And how long has he been doing it?

 

Years....

 

See?

 

I was studying-!

 

And you've really come a long way, too.  Any day now, I am going to let you help me with an update to the plan.

 

Really?

 

Yeah; you're almost ready...

 

 

 

3 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

 

As you might imagine, I'm one of those who felt the old Champions group CLOWN was overkill.

 

Confession time!

 

That is the only book I ever burned.

 

No; seriously.  Trying to get the fireplace started (I once lived in a house where a central fireplace was the only source of heat), ran through my little bit of tinder (wasn't expecting the cold snap, so i hadn't dried anything beyond the little bit in the bucket), and thought "well, I ain't gonna miss _that_" and began gleefully ripping out pages, crumpling them up, and lighting them.  Once the fire caught, I realized that I don't like to give up on a good idea, so I tossed the rest of the book in after it.

 

I can't begin to describe how good that felt....,

 

 

 

 

3 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

At least Steve Long didn't go overboard on comic-relief supers for his iteration of the CU. Besides Foxbat, I can also remember Bulldozer and Zigzag from the current villain roster who are there mostly for laughs. Pulsar also, to a lesser extent.

 

 

I never really got that sense from them.  I thought 'Dozer was just a contemptible human being that you might actually _want_ to beat on a little bit, but never thought he was comic relief.  Or funny.

 

At all.

 

Pulsar I took to be a high-end low-powered guy: he thrashes your heroes a few times, then gets his comeuppance once your players start to gel as a team.

 

Actually dangerous, for a but, but not funny.

 

I have no idea who Zigzag is.

 

 

3 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

 

Shrinker likes to humiliate superheroes, but her motives are spiteful and vindictive. The Incubus is the CU's homage to Mr. Myxyzptlk, so can be as funny or as deadly as you like.

 

 

Same with Foxbat, really.  You don't even have to reinvent him: _any_ psychiatrist will tell you that a real  disconnect from reality is dangerous simply because it exists.  The patient doesnt see this as reality, and is likely to become dismissive or even combative with what he may or may not see as distractions, illusions, or even actual insanity. He may even try to cure himself of his delusions by "proving" he can destroy the illusion.  Moreover, he is living in a reality where behavior patterns may be entirely different: perhaps in his mind universe, it is _normal_ to set fire to hospitals.

 

We have seen official scenarios where FB has decided he is a good guy, where he becomes smitten with one of the team members, and even where he attempts to imitate /become one of the heroes.  We have official documentation that who he is and how he sees himself is fluid (as it often in in real cases that involve breaking from reality).  There is nothing stopping him from waking up and deciding that he is now some other age of comics, or the Punisher, or even God, here to wipe out all life and reset the universe.  There is no such thing as a safe psychosis.

 

Look at his weapon: a 20d6 NND _is_ a dangerous thing.  It is also not necessarily a stopping point.

 

The only reason people play FB as "overall harmless" is because they want him to be.  I use him from time to rime (rarely, but it happens) because I need a villain whose MO can be bizarre enough to be terrifying, yet change randomly.

 

 

 

44 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

Wow. Considering how (deliberately) lame Darkon was, that must be a really low level of interest. (And I say that as one of Darkon's countrymen.)

 

 

Yep.  You are correct.  Bur as low as it is, it is still higher than my interest in Mechanon.

 

I know: he is one of the originals.  I even liked his new look on 4e (after I Xeroxed it, whited-out those Galactus-like bat ears, and Xeroxed it again).

 

I think I used that art for a Rom pastiche (as a villain), but even the new look didn't make the character any more interesring to me.

 

 

[steriaca]

I believe Zigzag is NOT a silly speedster, but instead a silly stretching guy.

 

(But of course I could be wrong...)

[Lord Liaden]

You are not.

[DShomshak]

I think CLOWN was a fundamentally bad idea. One prankster villain, okay, it's a classic type. A whole team? With enough points lavished on them to make them quite likely to win confrontations, at least in the old 250-character point days? No, I don't think so.

 

My old Seattle Sentinels had a few prankster villains, but I used them sparingly. (They also picked on other villains, which allowed the players a little schadenfreude.)  The Fellowship of Fear was a whole team designed as comic relief, but part of the joke was that they took themselves utterly seriously and did not realize how ridiculous and inept they were. UNICoRN, a fill-in campaign of low-power heroes, was often farcical with villains such as Commander Coleoptera (and his Arthrozoid Army) in the adventure, "They Cloned Quisling's Brain!" but everybody knew that going in. And the Keystone Konjurors campaigns were meant to be serious; the slapstick was the fault of the players making characters with Activation Rolls and big Side Effects.

 

Anyway, when people are done with other discussions I'll move on to the next stage of the analysis. But don't feel pressured; I'm enjoying this, too.

 

Dean Shomshak

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

I do have to say, though, that Foxbat may be the most unique of all Champions characters. No comic-book hero or villain is quite like him. The Joker is insane, but it's a homicidal insanity, while Foxbat is essentially harmless. The Creeper acts like a loon, but it's just that, an act. Deadpool and She-Hulk know they're in a comic book, but they acknowledge the existence of the real world. Foxbat thinks the real world IS a silver-age comic book. He patterns his behavior and his "master plans" after comic-book cliches.

 

That is a great analysis; he is unique and were I writing Champions: the comic book, he'd be fun to run because there's no real menace behind his plots, just fun.  But sparingly, he's not a guy that should show up often.   Honestly the Champions Comic Book would be easy to write, too.  I actually tried a few decades ago but that was when I discovered that I do not have the energy or time to illustrate a 22 page comic book once a month.  Or even every 2 months.  The writing is easy, its a very short story.

[Duke Bushido]

On 12/15/2022 at 12:04 AM, DShomshak said:

I think CLOWN was a fundamentally bad idea.

 

 

Sir, there are religions, philosophies, and entire sciences that are founded on words  less true than these.

 

Simply for saying it out loud, you should be able to look behind shadows.  For understanding it as true, you should be able to pull the strings on the venitian blinds of the cosmos, and cast away all semblance of darkness (until nine-thirty PM or so; I like it dark when I sleep).