Jump to content

PCs as minions of the Dark Lord


Jmonty

Recommended Posts

Well, this idea might have been used before. What if the PCs are not the good guys but some baddies?

First problem, for me, is how much of evil are they allowed to be without spoiling the fun. Some things are not fun in a game, I won't like the PCs raping peasants and beating baby seals.

One solution is "comedic evil", but I want a serious approach.

Another ideas are "evil can turn against itself, sometimes" or "you see, the minions of the Dark Lord are not so different from people working for unethical corporations and bosses they hate just beacause the money".

So, inspired by the Turakian Age, I have more or less this outline for a long adventure, and for a group of characters.

The forces of the Dark Lord, Kal-Turak, conquered a city. But they are a mess of orcs, goblins, humans, ogres, a few trolls... Each group with their captains and chieftains. Kal-Turak hopes one leader will unite them, killing the weakest, but one year passed and there are four factions yet. The PCs a legates from the Dragon Lady, serving the Dark Lord, and their mission is to help the best leader of this factions to become the Overlord.

One of the PCs is conscripted to serve Kal-Turak, and the rest could suspect of him. He battled against the evil forces, but his hometown was conquered and the warriors were offered to choose death or service. Now he is one of the many lovers of the Lady, and has something to gain serving evil.

Another may be a wizard who considers himself the best candidate to Overlord. Another can be a big ogre who simply follows orders.

The strongest contender in the city, based on Zarlang Thul, is very suspicious of the PCs and will conspire to have them killed by unknown assassins and blame the opposition.

This adventure is what comes to my mind by now, it can work with baddies, not will work well if the PCs were goodies.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't have Turakian Age, so I might be missing some context, but am I reading this right in that the PCs will not be candidates from the four factions, but instead will be sent in by the Dark Lord to oversee the process and (subtly?) try to influence which faction leader wins out overall? Kind of like a twisted take on UN election observers?

 

For me, the best approach would a fairly hands-off one, where the Dragon Lady has given the PCs their orders, but they have a lot of leeway in how to interpret them, either because they're trusted servants of Kal-Turak or because the city is a long way from Kal-Turak's power base so communications take a while to filter through. That way you can let the players decide how far they're comfortable going in the pursuit of evil, and if you have anyone who might be uncomfortable playing an outright villain they can play a character who might have noble intentions about helping people, who must then struggle not to become complicit in the evil around them.

 

With that in mind, I think having a clear outline of the goals and motivations of each candidate would be useful when starting the game. You wouldn't need to have any of them statted up until the players actually come across them, but having ideas of what they'd be like as rulers if they won gives the PCs something to go on when deciding who they want to support and who they definitely don't want to win (the strongest contender you mentioned will probably fall into this category if they go ahead with the assassins!).

 

All in all, that sounds like a really creative idea for a game, and I think your players will love it. As long as everybody knows not to push too hard if it makes someone uncomfortable there's a lot of room to explore evil characters, and a lot of fun that can't be had with the traditional hero archetypes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What I'm wondering is, if the factionalism is still going on, what's happened to the captured city over the past year? Are the different factions at war with each other? Or have they divided the city up into territories they control? How about the native populace? Were they all killed, or did they surrender, or something in between? Are the survivors enslaved, or just continue their lives under a new regime? Do some of them collaborate with factions of the Ravager's army? Is there any kind of resistance group active in the city? Any possibility that the realm the city belonged to will mount a counter-offensive?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, the PCs should be the protagonists and have some power in the outcome of the adventure, so they are more or less trusted agents. They proved their worth in some previous mission, and now are far from the headquarters of the Dragon Lady in a moment of this Evil Empire expansion. They have to decide wich chieftain is the better for the Dark Lord, and one of the PCs might think of himself as the best, but must convice the rest or let all the contenders be killed so he might be promoted.

 

In game terms, I think PCs should have 200 CP.

 

And what happened to the city? That must be answered because the PCs need to be there and know that. The city suffered a short siege. Royal family escaped and are guests of a nearby nation. Factions control territories, yes, the most powerful has the palace from the beginning. The city gates could be more or less shared because of the supplies received, and the local population... Well, that's a point to develop. I'd like to minimize things like torture of innocents, and have the bad people fight each other instead. Some collaborationists are to be found, may be one of them was a king's adviser.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As a GM, I have done this once, not in fantasy but in Western hero. I ran two groups on alternate weekends. The group in my home town were youngish (6 at 18 to 20 ish.) who wanted to be bank robbers and the other group were older and more experienced (8 at 25 to 35 years and long time gamers) The 'Bad Guys" began their careers as bad guys to theast and over six months moved steadily westward, hitting eight banks and 4 trains. It did not take the citizens of Cimmaron City long to figure out that they would soon be in the crosshairs of the "Bank Gang" . With two banks they knew they were a big target. The bad guys raided the town robbed both banks, lost two of their number on the way out, townies give chase, know the land better and catch up to the bad guys, ensuing gunfight, bad guys all dead. All done over the phone, pre-cell phone era. You see the reason that "Good triumphs over Evil is such a strong trope, is that that is what happens" it may take some time, decades sometimes centuries but the evil dictators in the end always lose. IT can however be fun to run a short campaign of bad or evil charactors.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I can see a couple of ways to handle this.

 

1) Create a set of goals the big bad has and have the PCs be the primary tools used to achieve these goals.

1a) the established powers are just as bad as the Dark Lord, so its like a mob war, with bad against bad, and hopefully the less bad wins

1b) the established powers are incompetent or corrupt, and are doing things really badly, so replacing them isn't so bad

2) The bad guy is a mob boss type and just wants power and money, so the PCs are essentially street soldiers working to make money for the dark lord; this creates a more sandbox campaign but works well for a low powered game

3) The PCs start out working for the Dark Lord then realize its not their cup of tea and eventually turns on him

4) The PCs inadvertently do good by breaking up things like slave rings, corrupt lords, etc and in effect are heroic without meaning to

 

The problem you face here is that its almost inevitable that things will go increasingly dark and become uncomfortable and bleak if short order playing all bad guys.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

Never let me be a player in such a game, though, or the trustwd agents will do their best to become,the rulers of the territory.


Yeah, me too.

Probably involving a lot of playing off the factions against each other.

 

If the plan doesn't work out, riding out of a burning town with saddlebags full of loot would be an option too.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have a sneaking suspicion that our reaction would be rather common. It would require some serious GM manipulation to expect another result.

 

Unless there has been a cultural shift amongst younger players, which is possible. But even one older school player would "fix" this.

 

Cultural influences in fantasy could have an impact on what players would do. People who grew up with Conan and Elric, not to mention Kurosawa films like Yojimbo (inspired by Dashiell Hammett), may react differently to people who didn't.

 

And Conan and Elric were definitely Bad Guys.

 

Karl Edward Wagner's Kane is another example.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, assault said:

And Conan and Elric were definitely Bad Guys.

 

 

The forums already held discussion of that subject, so I'll just link to it for the curious or anyone who wants to start it up again over there, rather than divert this thread: https://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/102465-conan-was-a-thug

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/23/2022 at 7:24 PM, GDShore said:

IT can however be fun to run a short campaign of bad or evil charactors.

 

An earlier idea was something like "Hudson City GTA", but... We are in a Fantasy forum.

 

I only have at this moment 3 PCs, will be better with five.

 

1. The conscripted antihero, knight or minor noble, probably a human male. The less evil one of the pack, or maybe not. Loyalty not questioned because happens to be a lover of a lieutenant of the Dark Lord. (this Dragon Lady inspired by Kitiara, from Dragonlance, and yes, she is a dragon rider)

 

2. Battle mage with ambitions. What kind of magic has? May be some fire magic, and spells from the god of evil.

 

3. An Ogre, strong and all that, a minion pure and simple. Unless I find another idea.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There was an article in an OLD dragon magazine where a GM did this.  

 

The players were getting bored of being the good guys and wanted to let loose their Inner Mr Hyde.  So he put the game on hold, they rolled new PC, all scums and creeps, and he gave them free reign to do what they wanted.  And they went nuts.  Robbing, pillaging, and ... other stuff.  Culminated in them getting a small gang together to attack and loot a small town.  Thus endeth the arc.

 

 

Now back to the regular PCs, who are coming back to town after their latest adventure, to find it ransacked, beloved NPCs dead (or worse), buildings destroyed, etc.  NOW the PCs got mad (as did some of the players)  But most used it as a chance to roll play, especially trying to bring their evil PCs to justice.

 

Now this was obviously a mature group, so be careful.  Make sure you know what they can tolerate, and remind them, what they can do, you can do back!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

I definitely prefer "shades of gray" vs. black and white morality in games. Your perception of who the good guys and the bad guys are depends on your viewpoint.

 

It's not hard to do if you use the organized crime model. Think mafia or cartels. They tend to be smart and focused. They don't intentionally target civilians as they are after a bigger prize.

 

Rival gangs, foot soldiers within the same organization, local law enforcement, etc. are the natural enemies that may also do their work in the shadows to avoid complications.

 

Raids on rival safe houses, ambushes, and intrigue can be a big part of these games. Go intercept an opposing organizations shipment or tip off others to their rival's plans.

 

I've never had a group of "bad guys" just go around robbing and killing civilians because they can. It's boring and repetitive.

 

Give them a good story and some rival factions and you're well on your way to a great game.

 

 

If you're looking for literary examples of shades of gray storytelling, look no farther than Glen Cook's Black Company series. A group of mercenaries who start off working for the big bad guys and then shift loyalties as they see a better option arising. The resulting intrigue requires the characters to take a hard look at who they support and how it affects their personal relationships.

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Steve said:

There is also something to be said for being undercover operatives in such campaigns. Criminals fighting against worse people is also good for those wanting to be anti-heroes. 

I find this is a common trope in some movies "Be prepared to root for the bad guy!"  Yeah!  because everyone else is worse than he is.  Ocean's Eleven is a perfect example.  We like them, but forget they are all crooks and con artist and pick pockets and safe crackers.  The ONLY reason we root for them is that their target is SO unlikable.  The Sting is another excellent example!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...

Problem with "evil" campains are that some think it means having black plate armour and not taking any crap from the local tax collector while other thinks its about being as gross as possible in every way possible. 

 

Even if everyone is on the same page and want to play somewhat humane characters just following the evil empire you will still get the main problem of all evil characters and adventure parties: ITS VERY EASY TO BE EVIL.

 

If it gets to hard they can always run away. If they have to make a hard choice they can just make an easy one. If a smart guy outsmart them they can just brute force him. If a brute threatens them they can just kiss his ass. If a "greater evil" threatens the entire world and they HAVE to work with others so save the world they can just try to use magic to escape the world with their treasure and then start over in another world. 

 

And that if you get lucky and have restrained players. More likely you will get power trippers and murder hobos who will kill npcs if they have magic items at any time no matter how much trouble it cause or only speak to npcs to brag and threaten them. 

 

Ask yourself if you put so many character motivations in stone and give them roleplaying guidelines to follow to ensure that they are not too evil then why are they playing an evil campain in the first place? Why be evil when you cant be evil? Where does the line go? You dont want your player characters rape the npc wenches in the campaign but how do you feel about them being rude and sexist towards them? How long would you be willing to listen to them being rude towards npcs? You have covered the ground making sure your campain wont be gruesomely gross but are you prepared for the PC's to be annoying jerks? Who only care about themselves? Who will turn on anyone at anytime to get ahead and probably not have the social overview you have of your world and as such quickly add up more enemies than you are prepared to create balanced encounters for? Are  you prepared for them to just skip encounters and battles you have prepared because they think its to high a risk? Even when its not?

 

I am just telling you this because there is a reason veteran GM's prefer having good parties. 

A group of mostly good characters will feel that they have to do something if they come across a dangerous situation threatening innocents. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think it depends a lot on the maturity level of the players. Our group has been playing together for 20+years and are all middle-aged plus.

 

They love a good story and we've had several successful campaigns playing bad guys, but not murder hobos.

 

Their characters are professionals and don't put up with others who threaten their operations by drawing attention to themselves through random public acts of violence/stupidity.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There are a few anime which play with the "evil overlord" troupe. One has the Hero, once he overthrew the Demon Lord get rejected by the human society and defects to the Demon Lord's side. Another has the Demon Lord actually a nice woman who is intrested in agriculture. In "Beast Tamer", the Hero is worse than the Demon Lord and actually want to kill the Beast Tamer.

 

There are also anime like "Overlord" where the main character IS the "Demon Lord".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would suggest reading the Black Company series.  Within the company members treat each other with varying levels of respect.  They are often employed by evil people to do evil things.

 

Also read about Smedley Butler (and the Business Plot) who received two Medal of Honor awards.  He described his service in the military as a well dressed enforcer for a mob of bankers and industrialists.  In Haiti he is hated for what he did there.  Was he evil?  No I don't think so.  Did he do evil things?  Most definitely.  Did he do things after leaving the military to help redeem himself?  I would say yes.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think this game would be improved by it being possible to overthrow the Dark Lord. Not easy, but possible. And within a reasonably short period of play time. 9-12 sessions, to pull a number out of my hat.

 

The less astute players might not realize this, and just keep committing atrocities, but the smarter ones will, and that's when things get interesting.

Obviously, Kal-Turak wouldn't be a suitable Dark Lord for this kind of game, but I find him supremely uninteresting anyway. I suppose he could be used if you include a suitable Deus Ex Machina to take him out for a millennium or so. "He comes back!" is fine if it is long after the PCs and their meaningful descendants are dead.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Unfortunately, your content contains terms that we do not allow. Please edit your content to remove the highlighted words below.
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...