Clairsentience using a Teleport Fixed Location as the sensor point

[unclevlad]

So, I like my teleporters, what can I say.  In this case, the long-range teleport's using a gate.  There's various drawbacks to gating in blind;  even if you expect the location's safe for teleportation, activity around the area might make the location untenable.  The character also has Stretching that doesn't cross the intervening space...an instantaneous micro-gate, if you will.

 

Sooo...what crossed my mind was, what about using Clairsentience, where the power's origin point is a teleportation fixed location?  The character has a spatial sense of where that location is, so it seems reasonable that he can use it similarly to precisely place his clairsentience.

 

It feels plausible to me, with no need for any advantage to say it's possible.  Thoughts?

[Duke Bushido]

First blush, it seems reasonable to me, too.

 

Can I trouble you for a typical,example,of,how you see this world, just to confirm we are on the same page?

 

Thanks!

 

  

[unclevlad]

Not sure what you mean by "this world" here.  I'm planning on just using teleport fixed locations as per RAW...a designated point.  Oh, I'll allow it has to be immobile, which isn't the case for fixed locations.  So say he's got a fixed location on the 16th Street Mall in Denver.  He can use his clairsentience to observe what's going on there, and confirm it's sufficiently safe to open up the gate.  There's nothing blocking that point, it's decently safe, if people freak out, there won't be a riot...that sort of thing.  And if it's into a hot zone, well, great, forewarn everyone what they'll see upon emergence.

 

Tactically it's a pretty sweet combo to me.

 

Teleportation 10m, x2 Increased Mass, UBO (+1/4), AOE (4m Radius; +1/4), Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4), Constant (+1/2), MegaScale (1m = 1,000 km; +1 3/4) (60 Active Points); Gate (-1/2)   and

Clairsentience (Sight Group), Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4), MegaScale (1m = 50 km; +1 1/2) (55 Active Points)

 

The ranges overlap;  remember the base range for clairsentience is 200m.  Obviously this is a LONG range teleporter, but from the standpoint of the power combination, I don't think it makes a big difference.  It's also kinda imposed by MegaScale...the steps are so big.

 

[Duke Bushido]

Sorry: bad eyes, small screen, retarded auto correct,  it ahould have read ;"how you see this working."

 

From your example, I would give it a probationary approval at the very worst.  I have no doubt that given a few minutes, either of us could concoct a potential cirner case where it might be slightly abusive, but even thinking about it, the worst you can do here is ruin an ambush, and Danger Sense can do that, so....

 

 

Yeah.  I have no problem with this, personally, and would allow it for most od my players (I have a xouole that take it as a challemge to really twist advantage (reas: abuse) out of unusual constructs, and that is where this lies: I would make the final dexisiin based in my faith in the player, and probationary approval to a player with whom I wasnt tereibly familiar.

 

I like it, personally.

 

 

[Ninja-Bear]

I’m with Duke. This seems like a neat power that isn’t too overly powerful. And like Duke, yeah you could twist this eventually into a powerful corner but should you be afraid to use it for a remote possibility?

[LoneWolf]

As long as you link the clairsentience to the teleport it looks fine.   Being able to always target a specific location while still being able to use clairsentience normally would be more powerful than normal.  Putting the linked limitation on it has enough restrictions balance out.    

[unclevlad]

2 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

As long as you link the clairsentience to the teleport it looks fine.   Being able to always target a specific location while still being able to use clairsentience normally would be more powerful than normal.  Putting the linked limitation on it has enough restrictions balance out.    

 

What's being made more powerful, and why?  I'm not seeing your argument, but I might be too close to things.  Also, what power is being linked to what?  The clairsentience linked to the teleport?  GAH!!!  That doesn't work from a sequence of actions standpoint.  The point is to rule that a teleportation fixed location can be used with clairsentience, such that you can target your clairsentience precisely, when your perception point is one of your teleport fixed locations. 

 

Placing a perception point and targeting a teleport are IMO *very* similar.  The rules for teleport are more explicit, more complete, and IMO clearer than the rules for clairsentience.  They're also *harder*...blind teleport not only includes the range mod, but also an additional, flat -5 to the attack roll.  A teleport fixed location obviates the problem altogether...so why not extend the notion to clairsentience?  

 

 

[unclevlad]

LW, BTW:  take a look at how fast the cost of teleport fixed locations adds up, particularly floating locations.  The most efficient buy is 5 fixed locations, x16, x32, or x64 as you prefer...remember these can never be changed...because "double the quantity" is only +5 points.  With floaters, I buy 2, then double the quantity again.  But...80 fixed is 20 points, 16 floating is 25 more.  That's 45.  I could buy, say, +5 OCV with my megascale teleport for 10 points, to offset the blind teleport mod (that's assuming you wouldn't allow me to buy PSLs for that), and say 4 PSLs to offset range mods.  Remember:  MegaScale affects the range mod.  That'd be another 4 points.  For the clairsentience, I only need to offset the range mod...but the max here is 200.  OK, 10 levels.  Pure PSLs.  Single power.  10 points.  25 points lets me use my clairsentience and teleport to target anything in range, with high-reliability rolls...likely 16- or better.  

[Christopher R Taylor]

Detect might be easier, and cheaper.

[unclevlad]

Mmmm....Detect what?  If it's related to detect remote position, I'm hearing Unusual Sense Group, so I need Ranged, and definitely Targeting...and a TON!!!! of Telescopic.  I'll grant that the Telescopic is cheap here, but you need a lot.  No range mod to 1 km is +14;  to 1000 km is +34.  (You need x1000, which is 10 distance doublings, and thus -20 more.)  You're also tying things to a PER roll, so odds are that'll need to be bought up somewhat.  Not sure it'll work out materially cheaper than the skill levels approach.  

 

If you're thinking megascale on a detect...it's possible, sure, but the base cost for a Detect is 3...plus 5 for Ranged, plus 10 for Targeting for 18.  NOW you have at least +1 for MegaScale.  And this will affect your PER bonus too.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Detect Safe Landing spot, you don't really need targeting, because you're not attacking the location.  You just need to know where there's a safe spot to land in. 

 

See, Clairvoyance you place the perception spot and hope its a safe place, since its so remote you cannot see to place it.  Then you look around, and try to find another place if its not good. Then another place.

Detect gets you the goods every time.  I mean, if you're megascale teleporting around the world it should hardly surprise you its going to be expensive but I mean... what's the cost to buy clairvoyance out to 1000 km??

[unclevlad]

No, you have to have targeting for the teleport.  You must detect the location with a targeting sense, or you suffer the blind teleporting rule, and the range mod.  Also, by that "safe landing"...I'm aiming for a safe spot on the Kansas prairie, where everything within 15 miles is farms.  99.99% of the ground is farmland that would be a safe landing spot.  What about this Detect narrows that down to a 5-10 meter radius?

 

Clairvoyance lets you place the perception point, sure, but when you're using MegaScale, what's your positional error radius?  Kilometers, sensibly...and you don't know the orientation of your actual perception point relative to where you wanted it to be.  If you're not familiar with where you're trying to put that perception point, then asserting "oh I know I made the roll so I know it's where I wanted it to be" is metagaming.  (There might be context clues that let you figure that out, but that's not guaranteed.)  You're basically looking at a random spot in a circle of radius Quite Large.  The Clairsentience rules are very vague;  they only say "make an attack roll at DCV 3 (or higher, depending on the difficulty)"...but to be consistent, that difficulty is based on the range mod.  And the same radius of error argument applies.

 

I posted the Clairsentience.  It's 55 points....but it's also legal in an MP, which your Detect won't be.  The structure with either allowing teleport fixed locations to be pre-selected perception points, or using PSLs and CSLs, allows the teleport and clairsentience to be in the same MP;  they don't need to be used together.  

 

I'm not asking for cheap.  As I said:  8x 2 floating fixed locations...25 points.  16x 5 fixed locations...25 points.  That's 50 points...and can't be in an MP either.  It's plausible, I suppose, to put a Concentration or perhaps Extra Time limitation on them...but it doesn't much help because that *doesn't* reduce the cost of the quantity multiplier.  HD says 8x 2 floating fixed locations, with Full Phase...is still 22.  (The quantity multiplier is MASSIVELY cheaper.  16 floating fixed locs would be 80 without it.)  

 

 

[Duke Bushido]

Yeah, I smoked it over a little more closely today on my break, and I just can't come up with any serious reason to shoot this down, assuming I trusted the player not to look for ways to abuse it excessively.

 

There are a,dew ways to get a similar result- some,mentioned by other peoole up thread, but it is not the same result, and none of it is as clean as what Vlad is proposing.

 

 

I am cool with it personally, but feel free to continue discussing it.

 

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

No, you have to have targeting for the teleport.  You must detect the location with a targeting sense, or you suffer the blind teleporting rule, and the range mod.

 

I am not convinced this is true, since teleport is neither an attack nor does it require an OCV roll.  You are simply finding a safe place to land on, not an area to attack.  Thus, you shouldn't need the targeting adder, since you are not actually targeting anything.  I mean if you're not worried about expense then the cost of Detect doesn't matter either.  This feels like exactly why the power detect exists in the game: to determine or sense something you can act upon.

 

And as you note, the use of megascale doesn't really help you with clairsentience, because you're talking about kilometers, not meters.  Which makes the Clairsentience significantly more expensive to be useful, plus the problems I brought up above of using it to find a safe spot which could take you minutes.  It could work, it is just going to be hella expensive and not very quick in many circumstances.

[unclevlad]

1 minute ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

I am not convinced this is true, since teleport is neither an attack nor does it require an OCV roll.  You are simply finding a safe place to land on, not an area to attack.  Thus, you shouldn't need the targeting adder, since you are not actually targeting anything.  I mean if you're not worried about expense then the cost of Detect doesn't matter either.  This feels like exactly why the power detect exists in the game: to determine or sense something you can act upon.

 

And as you note, the use of megascale doesn't really help you with clairsentience, because you're talking about kilometers, not meters.  Which makes the Clairsentience significantly more expensive to be useful, plus the problems I brought up above of using it to find a safe spot which could take you minutes.  It could work, it is just going to be hella expensive and not very quick in many circumstances.

 

Read the rules on teleport.  6E1 300:

 

Quote

Perceiving The Target Location; Misteleporting
A character can Teleport to any location he can perceive with a Targeting Sense, as long as it’s within the number of meters he can Teleport.

<...>

If a Teleporter cannot perceive his target location at all and is simply guessing where it is, he must make an Attack Roll (against DCV 3) at -5 to move to his target Area successfully. The character uses his standard OCV to make this roll, unless some other circumstance (like being Flashed or in Darkness) affects him. The Range Modifier applies, and the GM may also apply any other additional modifier he wants; the character may use applicable Combat Skill Levels if desired. If the Attack Roll succeeds, he Teleports to the target Area successfully; if it fails, he lands “off-target” as described above.

[Hugh Neilson]

33 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

And as you note, the use of megascale doesn't really help you with clairsentience, because you're talking about kilometers, not meters.  Which makes the Clairsentience significantly more expensive to be useful, plus the problems I brought up above of using it to find a safe spot which could take you minutes.  It could work, it is just going to be hella expensive and not very quick in many circumstances.

 

But the power envisioned by the OP does not allow him to scroll over vast areas seeking a safe spot to wherever he wishes to go at this point in time.

 

On 12/30/2022 at 10:02 PM, unclevlad said:

Sooo...what crossed my mind was, what about using Clairsentience, where the power's origin point is a teleportation fixed location?  The character has a spatial sense of where that location is, so it seems reasonable that he can use it similarly to precisely place his clairsentience.

 

As it only links to a teleportation fixed location, the character is limited to those locations which have already been set as fixed locations, which also means they have been visited before. 

 

As I see this, the Gating character has already established a link with the location, and can open either a large gate through which he and his teammates can travel, or a tiny gate through which he can see the surrounding area before deciding whether to open a larger gate.

 

Only to Perceive Teleport Fixed Locations seems like a huge limitation on Clarisentience.

 

As I skim over Clairsentience, the character simply places the perception point.  They do not require an attack roll (although there is a limitation for that). As such, the character should be able to place their perception point wherever they want, provided it is within their range.  "Only fixed teleportation locations", if that is the idea, would be a Fixed Perception Point limitation, possibly reduced from -1 limitation if he has numerous choices (and especially if he has floating locations).

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

But the power envisioned by the OP does not allow him to scroll over vast areas seeking a safe spot to wherever he wishes to go at this point in time.

 

OK if what he wants is to drop a beacon on a spot to see if there's somewhere safe to teleport to, Clairsentience is effective.

 

As for requiring a targeting sense to find a place to land with teleport... OK that violates the entire concept of targeting (no roll, no CV, no attack, no actual targeting), but if that's how the rules are written, you'd need Targeting on detect to find a safe spot to port to.

[Hugh Neilson]

The rule does not say he must always target and hit the desired landing spot.  It says that he must perceive the location, or make a successful attack roll, within the following parameters (paraphrased from 6e v1 p 300).

 

 - Perceive with a targeting sense (good to go);

 

 - make a PER roll if it is difficult to perceive the location with a targeting sense

       - success, good to go;

       - fails, attack roll against DCV 3 with -1 per point PER roll missed by (penalty may be reduced for non-targetting sense perceiving the target);

       - attack roll fails, off-target by 2 m per point missed by;

 

 - Just guessing location - attack roll with a -5 penalty

 

What is your alternative?  It's easy to teleport to a garbage dump due to the smell?

[Duke Bushido]

As I am seeing it, the power OP is proposing is just putting all of his fixed locations into the "good to go" category Hugh paraphrased above.

 

He has to buy those locations anyway, and the Clairsentience will cost him as much or more than the PSLs he would need to offset the penalties of the other categories Hugh has listed above (based on the assumption that an extremely high number of PSLs would lower the limitation value of targeting the hex versus the cost of the Clairsentience.) In the end, the SFX of peering into the location is interesting, and may even allow an occasional ambush.

 

I don't see anything here providing any special benefits at a cut-rate price; I don't see anything here robbing the player of value for the points spent, and I don't see anything here that will unduly disrupt a game.  Frankly, telepathy as-is would cause more issues than this.

 

OP:

 

I am neither an official nor am I  particulalrly intelligent, and I know diddly/squat about 6e, but if it is worth anything to you, you have my blessing.

 

I might have to add this to the 4e Cheshire Cat (one of the four or five published villains I actually use).

 

 

 

 

[unclevlad]

16 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

As for requiring a targeting sense to find a place to land with teleport... OK that violates the entire concept of targeting (no roll, no CV, no attack, no actual targeting), but if that's how the rules are written, you'd need Targeting on detect to find a safe spot to port to.

 

Huh?  How does it violate the concept?  There IS an attack roll.  There IS a combat value.  There IS a target...the hex.

[Grailknight]

I would have no trouble with this Limitation on Clairsentience.

 

And make no mistake, this is a limitation. Instead of being able to scan any point in range, the OP can only scan the places of his Fixed not his Floating locations as he describes the Power. That limits him to locations that are set before the scenario begins and that cannot be changed. Unless he guesses well or has a strategic area well mapped for action points , the Clairsentience doesn't show the action points. Even if it did, it can't be used to follow a target that flees the area.

 

By RAW, Teleport doesn't require a targeting roll unless you can't perceive the location or are going to a Fixed or Floating  location. No roll is required but this would spot ambushes or potential security risks beforehand with the Clairsentience. But this is only to the OP's fixed locations. Any other place would require some form of Sense or be subject to the roll. But that has no bearing on the cost or usefulness of the Teleport Power. 

[Chris Goodwin]

If you have Clairsentience with a Targeting Sense, and you're using it to scan a location... you should be able to teleport to it.  

 

To answer the OP's question: the rules don't allow for Clairsentience to automatically scan Fixed or Floating locations, but I'd 100% allow it.  I'm all for expanding the kinds of things those can do.

 

[Duke Bushido]

Sorry, Chris:

 

I am all out of rep for the day.

 

Still:

 

One-hundred-percent agreed.

 

[unclevlad]

3 hours ago, Chris Goodwin said:

If you have Clairsentience with a Targeting Sense, and you're using it to scan a location... you should be able to teleport to it.  

 

To answer the OP's question: the rules don't allow for Clairsentience to automatically scan Fixed or Floating locations, but I'd 100% allow it.  I'm all for expanding the kinds of things those can do.

 

 

The Clairsentience doesn't have targeting.  Too pricey, what with Megascale.  That's why the Fixed Location workaround;  for them, it doesn't need it.  But thanks.

[Hugh Neilson]

On 1/2/2023 at 11:31 PM, Chris Goodwin said:

To answer the OP's question: the rules don't allow for Clairsentience to automatically scan Fixed or Floating locations, but I'd 100% allow it.  I'm all for expanding the kinds of things those can do.

 

As I skimmed over Clairsentience (6e V1), it indicates that the character simply places the perception point.  They do not require an attack roll (although there is a limitation for that). As such, I would suggest that the character should be able to place their perception point wherever they want, provided it is within their range.  "Only fixed teleportation locations", if that is the idea, would be a Fixed Perception Point limitation, possibly reduced from -1 limitation if he has numerous choices (and especially if he has floating locations).

 

Am I missing something that suggests that a character cannot place their perception point anywhere they want within their range?  The rules don't appear to prohibit or restrict automatically scanning those locations within those parameters.