Beneficial Transform (and a potential houserule)

[Cloppy Clip]

Looking at the rules for Transform, you can add points to the target by increasing the amount of BODY needed to effect the transformation, which makes sense. I'm having a bit of a problem with the implications of this, though. If I wanted to buff up my friends, what would stop me from taking Major Transform 1d6, Improved Results Group (+1) for 20 points, and then just taking however much time I need to give them whatever combination of powers they desire? Since it's helping them out, they wouldn't necessarily object to spending some time being hit by multiple Transforms if it means 2,000 points or something equally ridiculous at the end of it. Even if you don't come up with a healing method that doesn't give you a time limit, the REC per month is going to be simple enough to keep ahead of, leaving the way open for unlimited gains.

 

While the GM could roll up their newspaper and give a light smack to anybody trying to cheese the rules like this, I feel like there is some value to granting powers like this, and it'd be a shame to put a blanket ban on using Transform on willing targets like this. So the idea I've cooked up is that the BODY from the extra points is treated as a sort of Power Defence instead, so each use of Transform has to overcome the penalty before it can start to affect the target. That way you could still grant your friends 2,000 points of free powers, but it would now need a minimum of Major Transform 67d6, which has a base cost of 670 points that feels much more reasonable if you want to throw those kinds of numbers around.

 

Although this does have the knock-on effect of making these kinds of Transforms a bit easier if you were going to do it all in one go anyway: adding 25 points to a 10 BODY target would now require a roll of 25 instead of 30 if you wanted to do it in one shot.

 

Are there any other side effects to this houserule to watch out for? Is the problem I've identified even a problem at all? I'm still new to this game, so having a more experienced set of eyes take a look and see if anything springs to mind would be greatly appreciated.

[Grailknight]

If you're the GM, then all is good. Try it and if there are no problems, use it.

 

If you're not the GM, expect something a little more emphatic than a slap with a newspaper. Then go and familiarize yourself with the UBO and Aid rules. Those are the RAW methods for granting Powers to others.

 

HERO's ruleset contains many options for abusive builds. Your house rule is just an option that makes the abusive build more expensive. Don't worry about it. We all go through that phase while learning this ruleset. When you can see the abusive builds right off you've begun to master HERO.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

If I wanted to buff up my friends, what would stop me from taking Major Transform 1d6, Improved Results Group (+1) for 20 points, and then just taking however much time I need to give them whatever combination of powers they desire?

 

Its possible, but highly discouraged by the rules, because there are more clearly structured and costly ways to accomplish the same goal, as Grailknight notes.  And the overall rule is: if there's a more expensive way to do the same thing, then that's what you should use.  The rules particularly state that you ought not use Transform to duplicate other powers as well.  And finally, there's that big caution sign which states that the GM should carefully examine every use of the power to make sure its not exploitative or abusive.

 

Is there a place for this kind of thing?  Very carefully used, and within a proper special effect, with due consideration to the campaign, sure.  A transform to make someone look like an orc when infiltrating an orc camp.  A transformation that changes your retina so the scanner reads you as someone else (although images probably is better for both of these).  But always the GM needs to look at this and be cautious.

[Khymeria]

The trick is really good faith. I’ve played with some players that had masters the Hero System and used it responsibly. In game I’ve sometimes let their characters have abilities and powers I would frown upon for less responsible players (many mental powers, VPPs, and powers that build up “offscreen” land here). I’ve had other players that were actually good roleplayers but couldn’t stop trying to suppress the spirit of the game for their characters personal build power and after a couple tries to see eye to eye with this sort of thing, I try to part amicably. Just different gaming styles. 

[Cloppy Clip]

Thanks everyone, that's some great advice. Thinking over it, and having a look at the perks section of the rules (one I'd mostly skipped over on my first time reading through), I wonder if the Followers perk might not be the simplest way to go about what I had in mind: you end up with an ally with powers of some description, but the SFX is that, instead of recruiting this person, you've granted them the powers yourself.

 

Now that I think that's taken care of, I do have one silly question about Transform duplicating other powers. Page 307 is quite clear that you shouldn't use Transform to replicate other powers, like Christopher says, but page 306's "Adding or Removing Abilities" seems to be saying that powers can be granted as a part of the transformation (e.g. giving someone wings gives them Flight). But in comic books you have examples like Superman, who looks exactly like a human but has a large array of potent superpowers. Where would you draw the line, personally? For me, it feels like the question of whether there's an example of the result in the real world matters; so, if Kryptonians are a part of the universe then a Transform might be able to turn someone into Superman, but it would definitely be off the table if they aren't.

[Christopher R Taylor]

It comes down to special effect and how  well it fits the genre and your campaign.  If a magical spell gives someone wings so that they can fly in a fantasy game... okay.  But giving someone super strength and growth with green skin and un-rippable purple pants probably doesn't fit.  And if you're just building a character to make other superpowered individuals who are your puppets, you're probably a villain and under GM control anyway.

[LoneWolf]

Christopher is 100% correct in that it is all a matter of special effect.  In the Hero System special effect is the single most important part of the power.  If you cannot adequately define the power, you should not have it.  So, the character who wants to have a power that allows him to grant other characters power has to be able to explain how the power works.  I am not talking game terms I am talking about stating how the power actually works.  You can use pseudo-science or other things that don’t actually work in the real world, but it has to be able to be work within the framework of the game.  My rule of thumb is if the player cannot explain to me how the power works, they cannot have it.  Some things are common enough they don’t require much explanation.  If someone says they want to be able to shoot lightning from their hands, I am not going to need a detailed explanation on how lightning works.  Of the power they selected for the special effect does not fit I might veto it or require them to change it.  For example, if someone defined their lightning bolt as a mental blast, I would probably have the player change it to something better suited to it.  Now if their special effect was force lightning like in Star Wars mental blast might be acceptable.  

[Duke Bushido]

17 hours ago, Cloppy Clip said:

Thanks everyone, that's some great advice.

 

Okay, let's get started....

 

 

First off:

 

Yes; you have been given some excellent advice.  Don't doubt what you are hearing from everyone above; what they are saying is rock-solid, and I have no desire to counter anything they have told you.

 

There are some,things I would like to add that you may not have hesed yet, or that you may be starting to figure out on your own.

 

First up:  T-form is... Problematic. That is, in terms of the game's entire history, a relatively recent development, in as much as it only started to become problematic in the 4th edition, when its usage options were expanded.

 

When first introduced, the power's write up included a phrase that never appeared again, but struck me,as an interesting and solid) guideline, paraphrased here:

 

If you can buy a power that let's you kill it, there is no valid reason not to have a power that let's you turn it into anything else that is as useful as the dead thing you could have otherwise created."

 

Words to live by.  T-form first appeared in one of the two big 2e supplements: Champions II or Champions III (Champions IIV for you stickers).  I think it was Champs 3, but it doesnt matter, really.

 

The important part is that there was a ckearly-defined purpose for the power, and a clearly-defined guideline:  it's a killing attack with a novel approach to killing things, and they don't have ro stay dead.

 

Then 3e brought us a lot of specialization in terms,of,"how to use the Champions rules to play other genres."  2e started that but "Espionage" flew under a lot of people's radar....  So I guess _technically_ it was the most successful secret agent game,of all time!    

 

Fantasy HERO brought us "Create" as a magical ability- a power.  It brought us other neat stuff, too, like the ability to burn XP permanently enchant things, but,I have a diffixult enough time staying on a single,tooic as it is, so ignore that for now, okay?

 

4e kind of folded those two together- Create and T-form, I mean-  and it didn't do it terribly well.  This is a common problem with pushing together two not-the-same things, and we were so bad at learning this lesson that we would go on to find Instant Change into T-form (despite it not fitting at all mechanically) and tearing Transfer in half and forgetting ir ever existed, then cobbling power builds that linked Srain and Aid and assuminf a bastardized version od Standaed Effects meant that the Aid just haooed to roll Whatever the Drain rolled.

 

And I am doing it again....

 

T-form became problemaric in 4e because Create was folded into it: we could target "the air" and transform it into....  Whatever.  Well, we tens to think that air has no BODY score, so you have to figure out how much air it takes, and then....- you know what?  Just digure out how much BODY the rhinf you want to make has, and roll that much BODY against "the air," and call it good.  You have crea- uh... _Transformed_ the air.  (Oh, and this works in a vacuum, too, even though technically,"nothing" has, by default, no BODY score at all, but mechanically, you are targetting the BODY that will have always eleven in the thing that--  look, just roll some dice until total matches what you need, okay?)

 

Interestingly, it takes GM fiat to make items creates this way permanent, since they should either begin to heal back to normal immediately, and / or there is some sort of player-dedined trigger event that restores "the air" back to air.  Create hd no such problem: items,Created were permanent by default; itwms transormed we're transitory by default (and I believe still are, even now).

 

Now there _is_ an upside to this:  id the party is earing Created food, they will have to periodically stop for...  I believe the Europeans call them "comfort breaks."  The party eating air T_formed,into food does not: "when all nutrients are absorbed, the food becomes air again."  There is no reason you cant just fart on through   another two hours of forced marching, right?

 

Additionally, there was a sketchy-at-best idea,that bevame immutable law:  cosmetic, minor, and major T-forms.  Not only were these things some,of the most poorly-defined distinctions in RPG history, they were never changed from their first implementations. 

 

Don'r believe me? Spend an,evening running through the search function looking for "what grade of T-form is 'idea X'?"  What you will typically find is that the folks here-  some of the longest-term HERO players and GMs on the planet-- dont agree.  By the timecyou get to twelve or thirteen responses, you will have at least one vote for each category.

 

What might have been better?  Well, making Create a separate Power would have been great (it dowsnt exist outside of 3e's Fantasy HERO; that function was shived roughly into T-form, and hasnt worked without a fiat or other rules bend since.

 

The simples,solution would,have been- assuming you were Hell-bent to jam Create in there,  to have declared "for a 20-point adder, you can create a permanent thing from,nothing, and here is how it works.  Or go for,broke: if a Player wishes to buy the healing back to a level that exceeda the reasonable life expectancy of the thinf to be Transformed, then that T-form,is permanent.  (Gid help you if you want to  Transform a rock. 

 

Or a Greenland shark.)  Still, even that is a _tiny_ bit of fiat.

 

Either way, permance would now have some ort of mechanic, right?

 

Then you have players who want to buy the,adder,so they can permanently transform someone into a slug for whatever reason, keaving then no chance to turn back (which I am remarkabke okay with, since a slug isnt-- game-wise, at least-- any more useful than a corpse.

 

What would I have likes to have seen?  Honestly, I am not the biggest fan of T-form there ever was, particularly,after twenty years of 4e builds using it as one leg of the Trifecta of Cobble (the others being Desolid only vs X and EDM,to the dimension where everything is the way I want it).

 

 

But, since no one asked:  how about 15 pts per die, period.  Possibly an adder for permanence (_not_ what I want: I would like to see Create and Instant Change folded back out of it).

 

Do you have an idea that somehow limits this power?  Maybe all you can do is rearrange make-up or change people's clothes?  Well how about you and your,GM,get together amd work out a campaign-appropriate value for such a limitation, the way you would for limiting almost any other power?  Sure: we can say "well, technically, going from 15/die to 10/die is a -1/3 limitation, and sure; that's pretty close.  It also only exists _here_, as the -2/3 limitation that drops it to 5/die only exists here.  I dont have an,issue with that, personally, but I am kind of surprised by how many other people don't.  The biggest value to calling T-form a flat 15/die and,you fold working out your own limitations and values is that we don't have to agree what is worth what, and we can,sort of pretend "cosmetic" and "minor" never hapened, which I suspect would lead to less confusion overall.

 

Want to T-form something into something worth _more_ than a corpse?  Two options: either use a create-like build (especially if you are after permanence) or declare something like Characteristics Maxims:  every point of BODY to be added costs _2_ BODY on the side instead of one.  It is still not permanent, mind you.

 

I know the knee jerk reaction is "but that is what Major T-form does," but I am tslking about getting rid of vaguexguidelines and examples and replacing them with an actual one-size-fits-all mechanic like every other power has and letting Played and Cms limit (or advantage) the power they way they see fit.  I am betting we would see some truly interesting T-form builds, too.

 

 

 

Now, more solid advice that you received: the rules state that you must use the most expensive option.

 

Eh....  That is a tough call.  I say that because I have a (likely false) memory from some years back of someone pointing out to me that there was an edition that did not state this- a more  modern edition than I play (2e here), I mean.  (Though technically, 1 and 2e did not state this.  We dis it anyway to enhance the odds of GM approval.  What GM doesn't love personal sacrifice in the name of character development.

 

Now let,me,tell,you something else,that the rules say:

 

Any power with an advantage is not the orifinsl power; it becomes a whole new and unique power.

 

To give you an example:

 

Flight: useable by others.

 

That means that you have the abikity to grsnt other people the power of flight, at least within certain parameters.  It does not in any, way, shaoe, or form mean that _you_ have the power of flight.  Remember the rules say that onve you advantage or limit a power, it is not the same as the original power.

 

Now let me tell you how many tables I have sat at,that play it this way:  4.

 

Four tables, and three of then are my own.  "Usable by others" not depriving the character of the power (unless he also,has a soare copy of the power laying around) has become the most ignored,thing,in the game.  It is so ignored that years ago I house ruled an advantage's advantage: "selectable".  Any power advantage or limitation whose value is modified by Selectable means that advantage can be toggled on or off as a zero_phase action.  Dont want to blow up,bystanders?  Put Selectable on your explosion.  Nor my,finest moment, but at least,they were paying,_something_ for effwctively having two different powers: the power of flight _and_ the power of granting rhe power of Flight.

 

Ultimately, if you want you ground-pounding teammate to fly, then you should buy the power to grwnt him flight.  The confusion, I think, comes from foci: when Orville gained the power of flight, he did it through a gadget that allowed Wilbur to fly, too.  (Now as Orvilles entirely in control of the flight, one could make a solid argument that this was better defined as "Flight: useable as Attack, but no matter where you go with it, people seem to see Orville has still keeping his flight even when he wws sharinf it with Wilbur.

 

I maintain, however, that the _focus_ had Flight; useable,by others, one,other, simultaneously, with perhaps a limitation showing only one guy was in charge.

 

If Flight: useable by others allowed you to use the power yourself as well,  then at some point since 1980 we would have seen some version of the limitation that said "unstable on others _only_.

 

Thus far, we havent.

 

So far, we haven't,  I maintain becaue that is built into the "an advantaged power is a new and different power" rule.

 

Look at useable,by others before you decide T-form is wrong for you.  Swe the built-in restrictions?  The range, the had-off, a) that?  The fact that while Kenny is using it then you can't give it to Mikey?  That's kind of a shame, because Mikey likes it.

 

If there is something,in those mechanics that does not let the power work the waybthatvyou encision it, then that is _not_ the build you must use, because it is not creating the correct power.  If It _is_ doing what you envision, _and_ it is more expensive, then you are required to use it.  However, it may just be that the mechsnicsvof T-form are the most correct thing in the game for your idea of  how this power works mechanically, and no othercbuild works or could be modified to work the swmevway, then T-form is the only correct build, and as the most expensive version,of,itself, it is the build that you should use.

 

 

 

Moving on, though:

 

Go with the most expensive build is correct, but remember to go with the most expensive _correct_,build.

 

This doesn't get enough airtime, at least not here, it doesn't.  That is probably because most od us are Cms, and make assumptions about what our converarional partners already understand about the system.

 

Pay attention, now, because even though I agree with what you have been told above, I am about to explain why it is wrong as often as it is right:

 

I want my buddy Kenny to be able to fly.  I buy Flight: useable on Kenny.  To keep up with him, I buy an equal amount of Flight 

 

 

 

 

17 hours ago, Cloppy Clip said:

 

 

 

Thinking over it, and having a look at the perks section of the rules (one I'd mostly skipped over on my first time reading through), I wonder if the Followers perk might not be the simplest way to go about what I had in mind: you end up with an ally with powers of some description, but the SFX is that, instead of recruiting this person, you've granted them the powers yourself.

 

Now that I think that's taken care of, I do have one silly question about Transform duplicating other powers. Page 307 is quite clear that you shouldn't use Transform to replicate other powers, like Christopher says, but page 306's "Adding or Removing Abilities" seems to be saying that powers can be granted as a part of the transformation (e.g. giving someone wings gives them Flight). But in comic books you have examples like Superman, who looks exactly like a human but has a large array of potent superpowers. Where would you draw the line, personally? For me, it feels like the question of whether there's an example of the result in the real world matters; so, if Kryptonians are a part of the universe then a Transform might be able to turn someone into Superman, but it would definitely be off the table if they aren't.

 

 

Look, it is late, and somehiw I scrambled,this reply all up- I expect because it is so easy to lose my place when I can only,see,thirty-five words at a time,and have to constantly,stop of editing autocorrect failure, it is stuoid easy to get lost.

 

Just rwad it until it makes sense; I am asleep where I sit.

 

 

 

[Scott Ruggels]

As A complete aside, and totally for  Duke, here's a Transform from 1st Edition Fantasy Hero (The one with the triple Jointed Wizard in the illustrations)

 

 

 

Enjoy!

[Duke Bushido]

And even then, T-form was transitory: dispell, defined circumstances, or healing back meant it could not be permanent.  That is what Create was for.  

 

Why didn't we keep Create?

 

Sorry- that is off topic; ignore it.

[Scott Ruggels]

4 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

And even then, T-form was transitory: dispell, defined circumstances, or healing back meant it could not be permanent.  That is what Create was for.  

 

Why didn't we keep Create?

 

Sorry- that is off topic; ignore it.

I really don’t know, but a campaign from release to 2003 was off those first edition rules. I missed most of the advancement in FH. 

[Duke Bushido]

That was a paraphrasing from the piece you posted, where the author discusses the inspirations for the bit of fiction and ceeating poisonous foods via transformationn.

 

 

[Sketchpad]

On 1/23/2023 at 4:00 AM, Cloppy Clip said:

Thanks everyone, that's some great advice. Thinking over it, and having a look at the perks section of the rules (one I'd mostly skipped over on my first time reading through), I wonder if the Followers perk might not be the simplest way to go about what I had in mind: you end up with an ally with powers of some description, but the SFX is that, instead of recruiting this person, you've granted them the powers yourself.

 

Now that I think that's taken care of, I do have one silly question about Transform duplicating other powers. Page 307 is quite clear that you shouldn't use Transform to replicate other powers, like Christopher says, but page 306's "Adding or Removing Abilities" seems to be saying that powers can be granted as a part of the transformation (e.g. giving someone wings gives them Flight). But in comic books you have examples like Superman, who looks exactly like a human but has a large array of potent superpowers. Where would you draw the line, personally? For me, it feels like the question of whether there's an example of the result in the real world matters; so, if Kryptonians are a part of the universe then a Transform might be able to turn someone into Superman, but it would definitely be off the table if they aren't.

 

In my experience with the Hero System, both as a player and as a GM, there are some restraints that need to be placed into a game. To begin with, you should look at the baseline points for your game. For many, a starting Player Hero will begin at 400 points. You'll use this to buy stats, skills, perks, talents, and powers. In addition to this, there should be some beginning limits, examples of which can be seen throughout Hero products. Since you're talking Superman, I would suggest looking at Champions 6e pg. 135 where it shows suggested limits for your Active Points in a power, as well as giving you good character guidelines overall. 

So let's look at the Transform that you were looking at. Superman, if built as the power level as seen in the comics, is a fairly powerful character that could be hundreds of points easily. But let's say we're building him on 600 points of powers, and that's the way you'd like the Transform to work. To give someone the full deal and turn them into Superman, you'd need to roll (120 + the target's BODY) x 2 to succeed. So if we figure the target has an average BODY of 10 with no Power Defense, that means you'd need to roll 260 on your Transform dice. To this in one shot, and taking into consideration that the average roll is 3, that would mean you'd need an 87d6 Major Transform, which would be 870 active points just for that single power before any limitations or advantages. 

Oof. That's a LOT of points that are nowhere near that 400 point character I was talking about in the beginning of this post. As a GM, I wouldn't allow it in my game.

[Scott Ruggels]

21 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

That was a paraphrasing from the piece you posted, where the author discusses the inspirations for the bit of fiction and ceeating poisonous foods via transformationn.

 

 

the author was me from 1996(?). Went over my head. 

[Grailknight]

5 hours ago, Sketchpad said:

 

In my experience with the Hero System, both as a player and as a GM, there are some restraints that need to be placed into a game. To begin with, you should look at the baseline points for your game. For many, a starting Player Hero will begin at 400 points. You'll use this to buy stats, skills, perks, talents, and powers. In addition to this, there should be some beginning limits, examples of which can be seen throughout Hero products. Since you're talking Superman, I would suggest looking at Champions 6e pg. 135 where it shows suggested limits for your Active Points in a power, as well as giving you good character guidelines overall. 

So let's look at the Transform that you were looking at. Superman, if built as the power level as seen in the comics, is a fairly powerful character that could be hundreds of points easily. But let's say we're building him on 600 points of powers, and that's the way you'd like the Transform to work. To give someone the full deal and turn them into Superman, you'd need to roll (120 + the target's BODY) x 2 to succeed. So if we figure the target has an average BODY of 10 with no Power Defense, that means you'd need to roll 260 on your Transform dice. To this in one shot, and taking into consideration that the average roll is 3, that would mean you'd need an 87d6 Major Transform, which would be 870 active points just for that single power before any limitations or advantages. 

Oof. That's a LOT of points that are nowhere near that 400 point character I was talking about in the beginning of this post. As a GM, I wouldn't allow it in my game.

 

 

Or with a little system mastery and some in game patience you could do it like this:

 

Severe Transform 1d6, Improved Results Group (+1), Damage Over Time, Target's defenses only apply once, Lock out (cannot be applied multiple times) (65-128 damage increments, damage occurs every 5 Minutes, +4) (90 Active Points)

 

I didn't put on any Limitations to lower the price but that's easy enough to tailor to your campaign. This Power will add 992 Active Points to a target with 18 BODY and 15 Power Defense. And you can give each of your new rampaging horde/army/harem a different powerset to go with their new beliefs/ingrained loyalties/secret weaknesses that you choose for them at the time of creation. The process takes 10hr, 40min to run its course so you'll have to stop them from finding a way to turn it off, if they're unwilling, for that amount of time.

 

 The only limit to this power is the number of available targets. And your first "recruit" should get a powerset that allows them to gather and isolate others. So yes, you can build an abusive use of Transform on that 400-point character. It's easy.  It comes down to being a diligent GM or responsible player.

 

Oh, if your creator is pressed for time, here's a 6min, 32sec version that actually is cheaper and adds 160 Active Points more than the first example for 1/2 the cost.

 

 Severe Transform 1 point, Improved Results Group (+1), Damage Over Time, Target's defenses only apply once, Lock out (cannot be applied multiple times) (257-512) damage increments, damage occurs every Segment, +7) (45 Active Points)

[LoneWolf]

Changes this radical would probably be a severe transformation instead of Major.  Severe includes changing an animal to a person or different type of animal, so changing someone into to a Krypton seems about right.   Also, transformation by default is not all or nothing so the damage over time and extra increments are not really needed. All they do is to make it so you don’t have to keep “attacking the target”.  If you are using this power to give someone the powers of Superman most people will not resist it and allow you to do it.  The Improve group is only needed if you want to be able to grant the target different powers.  If all you want is the ability to grant someone the powers of Superman, it is not needed.   Since most normal people don’t have power defense, that also can be ignored.  So, in reality all I need to create a power that can change an ordinary person to Superman is 1d6 severe transformation, which costs 15 active points.  For 30 points I can have a power that can grant any superpower to an ordinary person.  You would have to repeatedly “attack” the target and it will take some time to accomplish.  On the average someone with a 2 SPD could roll around 2,100 Body per hour.

 

Now obviously that is abusive, and no sane GM is going to allow it.  The Hero System is incredibly flexible and for the most part can accomplish nearly anything.  It is the responsibility of the GM to step in when these types of things occur and veto them.
 

[Cloppy Clip]

Stepped away from the thread for a bit and there's been a lot of activity!

 

LoneWolf, I think you've hit on the original idea that got me thinking about a houserule, and I agree that repeatedly applying a beneficial Transform to a willing target goes against the spirit of the rules, if not the letter. Duke Bushio and Scott's discussion about the origins of Transform gives some context, though, and I'm now thinking that if it was originally intended as an alternative to a Killing Attack (15 points per d6 either kills them or does whatever else you might like to them) then it might be best to focus on Transform as an attack, and ignore the uses on willing targets without very careful attention paid to what's being done.

 

Things like this are useful to come to the forum for, since I had no idea about the specific history of Transform, and that explains a lot of the logic behind how the power works. The rules are very comprehensive on how each element works, but not necessarily why.

 

Still, for my purposes, I think the Followers perk works for what I have in mind, since the targets of the empowerment would otherwise be powerless, unimportant characters I feel like it makes sense to just introduce them as Followers, since that has the same end result.

 

I do have a quibble about Followers, though. When you buy the Follower, you specify how many points they have and then take the corresponding about of Matching Complications. But the table on page 34 doesn't seem to have a clear relationship between points and complications. Is there a general guideline to know how many Matching Complications a character who falls in between the different levels needs?

[Duke Bushido]

On 1/23/2023 at 4:00 AM, Cloppy Clip said:

Thanks everyone, that's some great advice.

 

If anything you havw read has helped, well that's why we post. 

 

Now I _really_ did not want to revisit this, but there were a couole of T-form things I had failed to point out the first time, and you raised a couole of other points in your reply.

 

So here we go!

 

 

 

 

On 1/23/2023 at 4:00 AM, Cloppy Clip said:

 I wonder if the Followers perk might not be the simplest way to go about what I had in mind: you end up with an ally with powers of some description,

 

I havent used Followers (the mechanic I mean; every cult has followers, as do a lot of goons) in years (just dont see the need for the mechanic that tells me who and what my NPCs are (remember: as the GM, all NPCs are technically "my characters," even if someone else designs them (such as DNPCs or followers) and what they are going to do.  Accordingly, I can't be super-specific with details here (don't want a bad memory to steer you wrong), but keep in mind that the more powerful a follower is, the more expensive he is.  I believe the newer rulws make multituses of followers less expensive, but you still have to buy that one.  The book sort of stops with something akin to: feeble, normal, competent, slightly powerful, as powerful as you, more powerful than you-- stuff like that.

 

We're I the GM, I would likely continue this chart, using similar cost steps, and build significantly more powerful than you, a lot more powerful than you, way more powerful than you-  and so on until we hit the level of power you are wishing to bestow.

 

Now I like the idea, and it solves the problems of who pays END, how long does it last, how far away can we he move, etc, but it does so at the cost of being totally out of your control (because your follower is an _N_ PC.       ).

 

So if you are planning on bestowing Krypronian-level powers, it is still going to be pretty brutal, cost-wise-- or at least, it should be, and it would be at my table. 

 

 

 

On 1/23/2023 at 4:00 AM, Cloppy Clip said:

but the SFX is that, instead of recruiting this person, you've granted them the powers yourself.

 

There are _zero_ problems with this.  You have already paid for powerful followers, they need origin stories, and "my boss was getting his butt kicked by some superheroes, so he pulled me aside, waved his hands and said "there!  Now go defend me!"

 

Honestly, just the idwa demonstrates that you really have a solid grasp of rhe separation of mechanics and SFX: mechanically, there is no difference between sending your super-powered devoted follower or sending the devoted follower to whom you have given superpowers, so why not?  You even save the actions it takes to grant superpowers, and they are permanent!  Well done! 

 

I rather like it, actually,  consider the entire idea stolen.   

 

 

 

 

 

On 1/23/2023 at 4:00 AM, Cloppy Clip said:

 

Now that I think that's taken care of, I do have one silly question about Transform duplicating other powers. Page 307 is quite clear that you shouldn't use Transform to replicate other powers,

 

Remember my last post?  Sont worry; I totally understand if you didnt want to read it. ).  Remember where I said T-form was "problematic?"

Yeah; rhe rules don't help much, either.  "Never use T-form to do what something else can do; if two or more powers can do it, then use the most expensive power."

 

Well for a sizeable chunk of the powers in this game, T-form _is_ the more expensive way to do it!  For example:   Blast 2d6 (avg 7 STUN; 2 BODY.  You can use this power to turn an ordinary citizen into someone who has taken a significant wound.  Deduct 2 pts of DEF (normal person, so ED:2).  Half of his STUN is gone, you did it in one shot, and it cost you 10 pts.   To do this with T-form, you have to get ugly, because you have to roll a total equal to his BODY score to change him from "healthy guy" to "guy with 5 pts of STUN missing."  You want to do that in one shot, buy several dice.

 

Way more expensive.  But no; that duplicates something else.  Once the rules advanced beyond "something no more useful than a corpse," T-form just became a hot mess for dodging rules, so it had to get more and more special ones to keep trying to stop that.  (And No; I have no solutions; sorry).  At the end of the day, T-form is somethinf that you _must_ work out between you and your GM (or you and your players), because every table is going to handle it differently enough that anything we tell you isn't going to hold any real value.  I mean, we can tell you the rules, but I have already mentioned the difficulty in agreeing which rules apply where.

 

For example:

 

 

 

On 1/23/2023 at 4:00 AM, Cloppy Clip said:

 

like Christopher says, but page 306's "Adding or Removing Abilities" seems to be saying that powers can be granted as a part of the transformation

 

I think most of us have long held that understanding, but again: dont us T-form to duplicate another power (apparently even if it is the most expensive option?)

 

 

On 1/23/2023 at 4:00 AM, Cloppy Clip said:

 

(e.g. giving someone wings gives them Flight)

 

Does it? Penguins and ostriches have wings.  That is to say that T-form can most certainly change "human" to "human with wings," and I will straight up tell you that I think most of us would accept a T-form build that "grants the power of flight by giving the target wings," or at least we _should_, because it would typically be the most expensive way to grant flight to another PC (Pcs tend to have more BODY than to normal folk).

 

However, T-form can't duplicate another power, so you have to have Flight Usable by others.  Honestly, you don't even   _need_ the T-form:  wings is a long-accepted SFX for the power of Flight.  They are just going to happen.  (Plus, you can add the limitation "restrainable," making the power cost even less than T-form, in full defiance of the "use the most expensive option rule," but completely obeying the "don't use T-form to duplicate other powers" rule.)

 

 

On 1/23/2023 at 4:00 AM, Cloppy Clip said:

 

But in comic books you have examples like Superman, who looks exactly like a human but has a large array of potent superpowers. Where would you draw the line, personally?

 

It doesnt matter where I draw it personally because the system does it long before Superman- infinitely before Superman, actually, since Superman is an infinite.

 

I am not trying to confuse you if you have been reading old threads: conversationally, we tend to say things like "Suoerman is an absolute" and HERO doesn't do absolutes," but technically, we are saying,it backwards: the HERO System does absolutes _extremely well_, actually.  Absolutes are all it does:  Buy Duplication and you get one duplicate.  If you want more, you buy them in finite additional groups.  A STR:30 will throw X amount _exactly_ Y distance, modified be these specific modifiers.  One of the minor complaints by those not familar with HERO is that it "stiffles creativity because it is so exacting."  That isnt really true, but you have to play it to realize that what it offers as a system,to precisely measure the ability of one character against a similar abikity of another.  Even damage in HERO is predictable: we lnow the average STUN of a single die is 3.5 and we know the average BODY is 1.  We also know that the karger the dice pool, the closer to average we are going to roll.

 

Not absolute enough for you?  Then chose the +0 modifier "Standard Effects" to know precisely what the result will be every single time.  HERO can safely claim that it models absolutes far better than almost any other RPG in the history of the hobby.

 

What HERO absolutely _sucks_ at  is infinite.  Makes sense, though, because of "Plus One."  When You know precisely what your power level or ability score is, then you can add to it.  You still know what it's after that, so you can add to it again.  Numbers are infinite, meaning that there is no point at which you cannot decide "hey!  I think i'd like a plus one!"

 

Superman, the Hulk, and probably some others that I am unfamiliar with are infinite.  They seem to have no upper limit.  They might hit that "I am just not strong enough!" Moment, but that only lasts for a quick round of angst, then they punch a hole through a the planet and they are on their way as if nothing happened (Though Superman _may_ have the decency to marvel at his newly-revealed power level, while the Hulk.... Has a Hulk.....

 

Gad.

 

 

 

 

On 1/23/2023 at 4:00 AM, Cloppy Clip said:

 

For me, it feels like the question of whether there's an example of the result in the real world matters; so, if Kryptonians are a part of the universe then a Transform might be able to turn someone into Superman, but it would definitely be off the table if they aren't.

 

 

Remember That Superman is an infinite.  Fortunately, there are acceptable ways to model infinite without having to figure out  where you are going to get infinite points.  You have to ask youself some questions:

 

Do I want an exact copy of this infinite power?

 

Do I want to be the most powerful at X in the universe?

 

Do I want to be the most powerful at X in the campaign?  (Note that these are not the same,questions)

 

Do I want a more reasonable version of a character that I really like?

 

That last one is easy!  Take the things you like about the character and build a version within campaign limits.  I have a player in the youth group playing a Superman pastiche named "Magnificent" (sometimes Magnus.  Long story).  He told me that he like Superman, but he wanted a version that "made sense."  We probed that, ans essentially he was after a character like Suoerman whose powers and abilities more closely-matched what they claimed be:  super strength because he was from a high-gravity world (whereas Superman appears to have been from the singularity that birthed the  Big Bang), and a few other abilities like laser eyes and flight because he was solar  powered and able to use -- look, it doesnt matter; if you just want a campaign-legal version of the character, accept that he cannot be infinite and build what you like.

 

 

Thw other options arent actually rules, I dont think (unless they have made it into 6e, which I dont play), is sort of a community-consensus.  Alas, they only work if your table uses recommended guidelines like campaign limits, etc.

 

 

 

If you want to be the best at X in the campaign, then get GM permission to start right at the campaign limit.  Good GMs will either make sure that their  villains adhere to the same limits or will tell you up-front that you may periodically bump into a villain who exceeds it, but that he has gone to great pains to ensure that you can defeat them, and that you can figure out how.  Great Cms say that, and stick to it. 

 

_If it is the case_ that the GM plans for you to meet a villain who exceeds your power level at X (where X is the particular Schtick you are wanting for your character's "number 1 in the world at" thing- strength, speed, gadget-making; whatever), then talk to your GM about exceeding or at least meeting the level of that character.

 

Also remember that your GM may decide to ler you grow into it instead of starting at relative god status, suggesting that you start on the high end, and devote a portion if your XP to getting to where you want to take the character.  He may also not allow you to start higher than a a particular NPC for a reason.  Perhaos you can talk that through, also.

 

Now being the bestest ever in a campaign is one thing, but hiw about the entire "universe?"

 

This is very much like the 'best in campaign" option above.  This is dor those groups who use the same,characters across many campaigns.  As before, talk with the GM to start at the campaign limit; barring that, find a benchmark-  the fastest character (NPC or PC) and ask about exceeding (or at least matching) that character.

 

The difference here is growth.  As PCs (and NPCs) earn experience, their abilities increase.  Quite often, this means the campaign limits will rise as well.  You have to make the commitment to continuously allocate XP to keeping Ability X (which, for whatever reason, seems to almost always be STR or SPD) at the very top.  It helos to "prespend" a couole of points every now and again to push over the limit.

 

Remember though:  just because the GM let you start at the campaign max if STR:50 and you have been steadily socking a few points into STR and now you have STR: 70-  well, that doesn't mean you have STR:70.  You dont have that until the GM says you so.  What it dows mean, though, is that when the GM raises the uoper limits, you arent lacking- or at least, aren't lacking as much.  This doesnt sound like much, and to some,it sounds,like "wasting points,"  but the fact is that so long as you are maxed above, you are the ultimate; you are the unlimited.  You are the infinite.

 

Any time the cap rises above where you are--  your right back to absolutes.  If You maxed SPD at the campaign limit of 6, and didnt bother tossing another point or two here and there as you and your friends play for the next eighteen month's, and the GM raises that cap to 8--  you still have a 6.  As HERO excels at absolutes, not only do you absolutely have a six, you are absolutely two levels under the cap!

 

No; I am not saying keep buying SPD so that you will have a 10 when the cap goes to 8.  

 

Typically, this is something I allow the "essence of X' characters to do: the Hulk can spend a few ooints over the limit on his STR.  The Flash can soend a few extra points on SPD and a bit of movement over the campaign cap.

 

Why?  I am not going to let him _act_  over the limit _in most cases_.  I might set up a shiwboat moment to let him enjoy being "the best," but in general, 

 

He is the only guy that can toss a few points over the limit.   That way, when the limit is raised, he is still _absolutely_  the best.  He doesnr have to trsin to get better- to catch up to the limits; he was already so far beyond them.....

 

 

 

And as to Superman:  sink everything into a VPP.  Never stop tossing your XP in there.

 

Done.  Superman.

 

 

[Cloppy Clip]

Thank you for the comprehensive post, Duke, although I have to admit I wasn't seriously entertaining the idea of forming an army of Supermen -- it was more a way of trying to grapple with my problems with using Transform to grant powers, since there seemed to be no limit given enough time, why not do such? -- but your ideas about infinities give a lot of food for thought and, I think, reflect my own preferences a lot.

 

In the end, I think this thread has done a good job of showing why Transforming people into Superman is not the way to go, and I'm personally pretty happy with my Followers solution. Now if only I could wrap my head around these non-standard Matching Complications... 😅