How to disable limbs?

[LoneWolf]

For the set amount you could round the final result instead of each dice.  Once you get a decent amount of dice the chance of rolling above or below average really decrease.  On 4d6 you occasionally get 24, but I have never seen anyone roll 72 on 12d6.  I think the most I have seen on 12d6 was around 50, and that was a memorably roll that talked about years later.  So, a 10d6 set amount would be 10 body and 35 stun.   This would be a house rule, but seems reasonable.

[unclevlad]

There is a good solution.  It's not hard.  Don't apply standard effect to each die, apply it to the total roll.  

 

And 1/2 d6 normal damage is NOT 1.75 STUN.  6E2 98:
 

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If a character has to roll a half die (½d6), damage is determined differently. Roll the half die separately, or use a different color or size die to identify it as the ½d6. The face value of the die is multiplied by one-half and rounded up to get the number of STUN done. The ½d6 does 1 BODY if the roll is a 4, 5, or 6.

 

So:

1-2:  1

3-4:  2

5-6:  3

 

That's indistinguishable from a d3, for the purpose of determining STUN.  (NOT for BODY, tho.)  The mean is 2, not 1.75.  Again, its when the rounding is applied, and how.  You aren't halving the mean of the d6.  That's why it's 3 points, not 2.

 

If you're talking Standard Effect:  then, yes.  The mean is 2, so standard effect should be 2 STUN.  You don't need to consider rounding, at least for the STUN.  

 

Standard Effect was, IMO, written by someone who didn't really understand the implications of discrete math.  It creates funkiness.

[Christopher R Taylor]

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If you're talking Standard Effect:  then, yes.  The mean is 2, so standard effect should be 2 STUN

 

Correct.  But according to the game rules (and Hero Designer) its 1.

 

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It creates funkiness.

 

Sure, that was my point: you aren't rounding according to standard rules (yes, you argue it applies to 8d6 but it also applies to 1d6, where the standard rounding rule SHOULD apply but does not); but if you do then the character gains a large advantage.  Its bad either way.  Considering each die roll to be 3.5 on average would work better, which is what I think you mean by "Don't apply standard effect to each die, apply it to the total roll." 

 

You could, for the sake of game balance, say that the last .5 is truncated rather than rounded, so 1d6 is 3, 11d6 is 38, etc.  That's still not great for low end games and effects, but its at least better overall.

[unclevlad]

But how often does 1d6 *standard* matter?  For killing?  Yeah, it can matter, but one answer is to go to a DC basis...standard effect for killing is simply 1 BODY per DC rolled.  

 

And that's simplified.  It's not "3.5 per die."  It's 

a)  determine the dice to be rolled

b)  determine the mean...which is 3.5 per full die, plus whatever's going on with adjustments.  So, d6-1?  The d6 is a full die, -1 is a flat adjustment.  Same with +1, it's a flat adjustment.  1/2 die?  For STUN, the mean is 2, so...that's the adjustment.  Determine the round for BODY as you like.  When there's a leftover .5?  As noted, do what feels right.  When it matters?  When we're talking, say, 1d6 killing, in an agent-level game?  DON'T use Standard Effect.  Same with Healing, Aid, or Transform.  The point of Standard Effect is to simplify the game, and preferably have it move more quickly.  If it's causing this much sweat?  Say that it's the accumulation that matters, not the rolls, or simply don't allow Standard Effect.  

 

This is the correct process, and more accurate expression.  "Each die is 3.5 on average" leads to confusion on the half die interpretation.  It focuses on the total power, not the components, which is also what you want.  Sure, they're almost the same, but I'm a mathematician and systems-oriented guy.  HOW you get there matters to me because it helps formulate broader answers.

 

There's all sorts of halfway steps any time you're rolling a ton of dice, be it a D&D archmage's fireball, an 18d6 punch in Hero, or effects rolls sometimes in Shadowrun.  It's just more convenient...rather than roll 18, maybe roll 8, and say the other 10 are average (10 and 35).  All you're really doing is trimming off the *rare* extremes.  (95% of rolls of 18d6 will be between 55 and 71 stun;  99.5% will be between 45 and 81.)  

 

So...yes, I agree.  Standard effect probably doesn't work at the lowest end.  Fine.  Don't use it.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Well here's the thing.  In a heroic game, a 5 point Aid can be really useful.  A DOT is usually based on pretty small dice that goes off a lot over time (1d6 drain STR every 2 segments for 2 turns, for example).  At first glance 1d6, 1½d6 doesn't seem like its going to come up much but it really does, in heroic settings.  Having gone through and rebuilt almost 1000 spells for Fantasy Hero, trust me on this 

 

I dunno if standard effect shouldn't ever be used for heroic, but it is a curiosity that doesn't work particularly well at the low end.

[unclevlad]

Fair.  I think supers.

 

And another issue there, yes, it doesn't work when you're dealing with Damage Over Time.  It looks like I removed my thoughts there in the interest of simplicity, but yeah, it's broken there.  Solution?  Again, you have to rethink based on the TOTAL power.  2 turns, every 2 segments?  That's 12 increments, so how about thinking of it as a 12d6 Drain, for purposes of Standard Effect.  That's 42 now.  That's a little awkward to break into 12 chunks...so, fine.  DON'T.  Make it 4 per segment for 10 or 11 active segments.  That's 40 or 44 total.  Take your pick;  I'd argue for 10 segments myself, but I loathe DoT in the first place, so that's biasing me without doubt.

 

And heck, HD is saying it's a number of damage increments and interval between increments, so you've got 9-12 increments.  Fine, as I say, call it 12 for the full value, then just say it's happening over 10 and simplify the amount.  This really isn't new rules, so much as a flexible interpretation of them. I do note tho...that's a 50 point power.  9-12 increments every 2 segments is +4, and that's with defenses applying each time.  It's showing as +5 1/2 if "defenses only apply once" is applied.  That isn't a heroic-level power in my book.

 

 

[unclevlad]

Lemme extend the thinking there a bit.  A common issue is when you start looking at major advantages on low-base-cost powers.  +4 counts as a major advantage;  10 points is still fairly low for the base cost.  Drain and Transform both have the inherent "no maximum effect" that makes this a devastating power for FAR less than its effectiveness potentially warrants...especially in Fantasy Hero where the victim's SPD isn't all that high.

 

So the major problem IMO isn't the bad rounding related to Standard Effect;  the construct itself is the issue.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Although the Standard Effect is lower than the average of the dice roll, as noted earlier it is a guaranteed value; you know you won't whiff a roll.  That said, I would usually require some justification for Standard Effect.  On the original topic, if I am going to 'disable' a limb with a pair of handcuffs, that is a pretty standard effect once they are in place, so that works.  If I am disabling with a nerve punch, that is going to be a lot more variable, so Standard Effect isn't nearly as appropriate.

 

One exception to that rule in my games is Aid.  It is really useful to add 10 points to a characteristic, but a 3d6 Aid only gives you 9 points with Standard Effect, which is awkward.  So our house rule is that the Standard Effect for 3d6 is 10 points.  This started out with a master criminal who was using drugs to make jacked-up thugs, and so his minions had various Aids to grant them boosted CHA scores, all with a Standard Effect of 10 points.  Originally it was just to make the GM's life easier, but it was so convenient that it has become our standard.