Without Gunpowder, you still get ranged weapons

[Scott Ruggels]

 

 For a while, the experimented on liquid fueled firearms. You may have done it yourself with potatoes, or (flaming) tennis balls.  With the adoption of flame throwers, and the explosive potential therein, talented engineers could bring consistency to liquid fueled firearms.  Liquid explosive consistency of charge is now settles in the fuel injection of cars..

[Duke Bushido]

Mmmmmm......   Gyrojet....... 

 

 

 

[Duke Bushido]

Wrong thread; deleted.

 

Sorry, California.

 

 

And Australia.

Edited March 9, 2023 by Duke Bushido
Wrong thread

[DShomshak]

I forget whether it was an episode of the Ancient Discoveries TV series, or an episode of Junkyard Wars, that introduced me to the steam cannon. Like it says, the propellant is steam: An external fire boils the water, building up pressure, while some sort of clamp holds the projectile in place. Release the clamp, and the projectile fires. Not a hand weapon of course, or one that could be fired rapidly, but field artillery or emplaced artillery might be feasible.

 

(I introduced it to the Exalted game along with "erupters," a sort of early Chinese weapon midway between cannon and flamethrower. The game already had a quasi-natural incendiary/explosive called "firedust," because early in the game's development someone really, really wanted to have gunslingers without gunpowder.)

 

Dean Shomshak

[Scott Ruggels]

21 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

Mmmmmm......   Gyrojet....... 

 

 

 

 Almost bought one of those in the late 1980s. Beautiful, in the case model, Gold Plated with a Robert H. Goddard medalion in the case. I stopped because no one ws making ammo for it, as I tend to shoot what I have a lot.

[Sundog]

 

 

[Duke Bushido]

2 hours ago, Scott Ruggels said:

 Almost bought one of those in the late 1980s. Beautiful, in the case model, Gold Plated with a Robert H. Goddard medalion in the case. I stopped because no one ws making ammo for it, as I tend to shoot what I have a lot.

 

 

I could quote that exact same statement, except that I did actually buy one, with thirty rounds.  Fired off about half (just over; I sold it with an even dozen rounds).  The concept was interesting; I feel like automated manufacturing needed to step its game up before those things vaught on mainstream, but instead they just sort of died.

 

Still, I would have loved to have seen a truly recoilless 50 cal handgun....

 

For anyone wondering, "grouping" was not a thing that was ever going to happen with the one I had, and I am fiven to understand that consistently hitting a target at all was something to be proud of.  Of the meager handful of rounds I fired, there were three complete duds (something had apparently allowed a slow breech of the duel chamber I suspect) and one that spiralled off so hard to left right out of the barrel that the folks watching us shoot it moved an masse to directly behind us. (My brother J and I bought it together because we had always wanted to shoot one).

 

Accuracy was incredibly poor at anythinf greater than thirty feet, and the projectile was literally _visible_ for the first ten feet or so.  Inresring idea that required mass production at a scale of efficiency and economy that just wasn't available in its day.

 

A part of me really wants someone to tackle it again, just to see what we could now.

 

Honestly, I have seen better performance from pneumos--  ooh!  And a few steam guns, but those are still wildly impractical.

 

(And yes: Star Frontiers sis in favt make us do it)

 

 

[GDShore]

In my new campaign I am introducing a stone bow (with barrel), in the arbalest weight category to fire rounds that look a lot like those of the modern grenade guns. It is a weapon created by an alchemist working with an artisan, I see a wide array of weapons opening up for a fantasy campaign. A captured air elemental in the tank on the pneumatics, never run out of air pressure, a trapped fire/water elemental (or both) makes a portable steam canon. (probably the size of a bazooka or modern anti-tank weapon.) Imagination only constrains the possibilities.  Thank you. 

[assault]

While you can have very low powered elementals, I'm inclined to think that such uses feel like a waste of a summoned creature that is powerful in its own right.

[GDShore]

True, true, but it is going to be fun to create it anyway. I can already see ways to make the Giradoni rifle without the elemental. 

[Old Man]

On 3/8/2023 at 8:45 PM, DShomshak said:

I forget whether it was an episode of the Ancient Discoveries TV series, or an episode of Junkyard Wars, that introduced me to the steam cannon. Like it says, the propellant is steam: An external fire boils the water, building up pressure, while some sort of clamp holds the projectile in place. Release the clamp, and the projectile fires. Not a hand weapon of course, or one that could be fired rapidly, but field artillery or emplaced artillery might be feasible.

 

Probably Ancient Discoveries, because IIRC the Greeks had a steam cannon that modern researchers were trying to figure out.  It was a two-chamber device that in all probability used superheated steam.  Basically if you overheat water way past boiling in a pressurized vessel, and then suddenly release the pressure, all the water flashes to steam at once.  That gives a really high pressure spike that can be used to propel a projectile with great velocity.

 

Not a terribly practical weapon because of the weapon's mass and reload/charge time, not to mention the near-suicidal hazard to the operators especially given the metallurgy of the time.

[GDShore]

I have never seen a gun blow up, I have seen an arrow explode on loose and that was scary enough for me. It happens when you fire an undersplined arrow out of a bow that is very powerful. when you fire an arrow all that stored energy is instantly transferred to that arrow, if splined properly the arrow flexes as it travels across the bow then on to the target. If undersplined the arrow turns into shrapnel almost instantaneously in a cone shape based about 3 - 4 cm. in front of the string. The archer received two splinters in his bow arm one about 5cm. long 5mm thick above his armguard and the second hit his armguard gouging it. The archers on either side of him received 3 and 4 splinters respectively. 

     Now imagine what happens when a pressurized  steam cylinder blows. Ka-blam Greek bits everywhere. ouch.

[Scott Ruggels]

3 hours ago, GDShore said:

I have never seen a gun blow up, I have seen an arrow explode on loose and that was scary enough for me. It happens when you fire an undersplined arrow out of a bow that is very powerful. when you fire an arrow all that stored energy is instantly transferred to that arrow, if splined properly the arrow flexes as it travels across the bow then on to the target. If undersplined the arrow turns into shrapnel almost instantaneously in a cone shape based about 3 - 4 cm. in front of the string. The archer received two splinters in his bow arm one about 5cm. long 5mm thick above his armguard and the second hit his armguard gouging it. The archers on either side of him received 3 and 4 splinters respectively. 

     Now imagine what happens when a pressurized  steam cylinder blows. Ka-blam Greek bits everywhere. ouch.

 

I have seen a couple of Guns blow up on the range. One due to an obstructed bore  which made it bulge and split.  One that was an AK< that the cartridge detonated due to a stuck firing pin and blew out the bottom of  its magazine, dumping the rest of the ammo in the dirt, quite forcefully.  It happens, but that's two weapon in 40 years.

The Arrow story seems mire than a little scary. 

[GDShore]

It was, but it only happened because of stupid laziness. Proper maintenance of your equipment is absolutely essential, he came to a practice having forgotten his arrows at home, so he borrowed his sisters arrows. He is 2 meters tall, uses a 25 kilo draw recurve, (at 70 cm.) has a 75 cm. draw and uses 80 cm. long arrows, she is 175 cm. tall uses a 15 kilo draw recurve (at 70 cm.) has a 60 cm. draw. That difference probably reduced the damage by a considerable amount, he could not get a full draw. There is an incredible amount of energy stored up in a bow, I have never seen a bow blow up, but I have heard about such. It is a maintenance issue again, it occurs when you are "stacking a bow". which is repeatedly overdrawing it. Inspection and regular testing prevents it from happening, regular cleaning and inspection prevents guns from blowing up too.

[GDShore]

Let us break down the Giradoni rifle, 1 - barrel a long tube potentially made from different materials, 2 - lock a complex assortment of gears and levers whose purpose is to release a burst of air thru the barrel, 3 - magazine a container that holds and feeds slugs/bullets into the lock, 4 - air chamber a container that holds a charge of compressed air the chamber either cylindrical or spherical, 5 - speed loaders a device that allows for a fast reload of the magazine, 6 - pump a device to recharge the air chamber, 7 & 8 crucible and mould - devices to create the slugs, 9 - tools to refine slugs, 10 - bars of lead to make slugs. Most of these are artisan work (highly skilled artisan work, if you think this is not possible by hand think back to the Afgan guerrilla of the late 70's early 80's capturing Russian weapons and copying them by hand, to better tolerances than the original) but two bear looking at as magic items.  [using 6e stats and the Magic Items book published 1987 by David Berge, Barry A. Wilson and Andrew Robinson. 

     Air Chamber - Aid - strength + body = 18 + 30 = 48 basic points - advantages - No Magic Roll x  1/4 = active cost of 60 points - general modifiers - none - limitations - Obvious Accessible materials +1, independent +1, 2 handed weapon + 1/2,  has a strength minimum + 1/2, cannot add damage with strength minimum + 1/2, limited usage - charges +1, = 5 = real cost of 10 points. 

     Effect - canister holds enough air for 25 rounds.

     I am still working the pump, will add it when I finish. 

[GDShore]

I have decided that the slug damage shall occur as a move through, thus, with a muzzle velocity of @500 fps or 152.5 meters per second divided by 6 = 25 die 6 at 100 meters, 12 die 6 at 200 meters. (if one envisions damage from firearms this way it completely changes the functionality of firearms in system, looking at the Kentucky long rifle, 1776 muzzle velocity of @1200 fps or 366 mps = 61d6, in its last iteration 1860 at 1600 fps or 488 mps = 81d6. Hmmm, maybe not I can see why the developers did not go this way, but deliberately undervalued the damage inflicted. 

[Scott Ruggels]

I saw a Giradoni Rifle once at a Gun Show in the early 90's, it was a beautiful piece of workmanship. gorgeous. It was impossibl;y expensive to purchase at that time.

[Old Man]

On 3/15/2023 at 7:39 AM, GDShore said:

I have decided that the slug damage shall occur as a move through, thus, with a muzzle velocity of @500 fps or 152.5 meters per second divided by 6 = 25 die 6 at 100 meters, 12 die 6 at 200 meters. (if one envisions damage from firearms this way it completely changes the functionality of firearms in system, looking at the Kentucky long rifle, 1776 muzzle velocity of @1200 fps or 366 mps = 61d6, in its last iteration 1860 at 1600 fps or 488 mps = 81d6. Hmmm, maybe not I can see why the developers did not go this way, but deliberately undervalued the damage inflicted. 

 

This is not even close to the weirdest build I've seen in Hero, but Move Through does not take the mass of the attacker into account*, hence the weird numbers.  It's also odd for a nonsentient bit of metal with no STR and no OCV of its own to execute a combat maneuver.

 

* At least not in 5e or 6e, I don't have my BBB on me to check 4e.

 

[GDShore]

Actually there is no mention of mass in the 6e rules only str. and velocity, I botched the velocity formulae, it should be vel./10 which would reduce it to 15 die 6. I merely postulate this as a thought experiment, I am somewhat disappointed by the damage that firearms inflict in game. I have been on the receiving end of someone trying to shoot me not the least bit pleasant. The reason I suggest move through is that is what a bullet does, I have hunted enough to know what damage a rifle slug does on impact. (I saw the damage inflicted on inanimate objects)

[Scott Ruggels]

Once talking with George MacDonald, I asked him about firearm damage, and he said that to make firearm damage realistic was to add a die of killing damage to each weapon and drop the stun mod to one.  

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

Once talking with George MacDonald, I asked him about firearm damage, and he said that to make firearm damage realistic was to add a die of killing damage to each weapon and drop the stun mod to one.  

 

I added a damage class to most firearms for Western Hero, because they are more potentially deadly than usually listed.  But they also can pune out and do very little, and people can survive an astounding number of gunshot wounds.  There are stories from war and the old west of men being shot a dozen times or more and living through it.  Its not just where you hit, sometimes bullets aren't as deadly as they ought to be.  And sometimes they are way deadlier.

[Scott Ruggels]

I was reminded yesterday of an Anime called The Last Exile. In the initial scene two fleets of steam powered airships formed into lines, as they were a sergeant formed up a line of vaguely Napoleonic troops into a Firing line. The troops then attached their guns to the airship’s steam lines and waited for the command to fire. The opposite line of vaguely Asian troops did the same and when two airships came abreast, the command was given to fire (with predictable results). The Airship’s larger turrets had more effect, downing an enemy, where it sank into a lower layer of toxic, flammable gas and detonated.   All very spectacular.