Horatio on the bridge

[Doc Democracy]

One of the things the system is often critiqued for is not giving a character the ability to defend and area, stopping opponents from just moving past them unimpeded.

 

What about a talent based on Barrier, when the warrior uses a defensive stance they can create an effective blade barrier, stopping anyone from getting past unless they can overwhelm the defence, doing enough damage to dismiss the barrier.

 

I reckon the Barrier would be bought with no BODY, you either break through or you don't.  The barrier would also be instant, created anew each phase.

 

Has someone had this revelation before?  Have I been labouring for rubbish handwoven stuff when I should simply gave been dipping into the powers part of the rules?

 

Doc

[Duke Bushido]

Well, we can melee anyone in an adjacent hex (though that is now for most of only half of what it is to me).

 

Polesrms,and,such may include an inch or so of stretching, so we can cover the area one hex further than that.

 

We can flying tackle (while I dont know if there have any official rulings on this, I always felt like 3" was about right for that, and do move throughs, move bus and even grab bys if they are further away than that, granting us an are of what we can reach with our movement.

 

Beyond that we have Ranged Attack (which is still called "Blast" for some goofy and presumably sentimental reason!   We have Killing Attack and Ranged Killing Attack, habd to hand attack (in some material) and....  Blast?!  We spend a few decades complaining about getring people to make the leap that an Enery Blast can be a bullet or an arrow of a thrown flip flop, and given the perfect opportunity-  the largest sweeping redo of the rules ever, we totally fail to take the simplest step toward both resolving that problem _and_ bringing a conformity to the nomenclature of the most common attacks.  Egad,) with which we can attack anyone coming within X distance.  We have Force Wall /Barrier (_this_ got a sensible complete rename, but not Energy Blast?  It gets the equuvalent of "My name is Antonius, but my friends call me 'Ant.'") To literally sheild an an area, and various AOE options for holding off entire crowds, and we can use all of them (except Barrier) with the "Cover" maneuver.

 

Who are these crazed outsiders who think that we cannot defend an area?

 

 

 

 

 

[Steve]

I feel like such an ability should be called “None shall pass!”

[Christopher R Taylor]

(several nuns shuffle by piously)

[Doc Democracy]

22 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

Who are these crazed outsiders who think that we cannot defend an area?

 

 

Me! 🙂

 

If I am standing on the bridge and there are dozens of opponents seeking to get across and the bridge is, say 5m wide, then I cannot really delay them for long.

 

The first row approach and I choose to wait and attack the first person who comes close, they all move forward, the one on the middle can't get past and engages, I attack him, the other two move past me.

 

Next phase, another two move past, then another two and another two.

 

The friends I was seeking to protect by sacrificing my life have gained a few minutes at best.

 

I have no machanical way to defend the area.

 

With this, I defend the area, as long as those facing me cannot break through my wall of steel, they are stuck, needing to kill me before they move on.

[Duke Bushido]

The thinking man inside of me, desperate for a chance to be let out, suggests blowing the bridge and being done with it, but what does he know? 

 

The GM in me needs more tactical data, and the power gamer I keep locked up with the thinking man (because it is just awful when they start working together) suggests an AoE fire-based attack because flaming corpses are harder to climb over than still-slightly-warm ones.

 

 

 

 

[GDShore]

 For the most part you are responding to this ancient story with modern mores, the ancient army if honour challenged must respond to Horatio one at a time or lose their honour. To them the loss of honour was a worse fate than death, for in death they would be remembered as facing off with a hero. 

[Opal]

I don't know how many versions of the game I may be mixing here, but aren't there sweep and multiple move bys and grab one guy, slam another, and martial throws?

 

There's a lot of ways for a sufficiently superior hero to hold many lesser foes at bay!

 

And once you've done a dramatic one, Roll that PRE Attack!

[Opal]

On 3/14/2023 at 11:14 AM, Doc Democracy said:

One of the things the system is often critiqued for is not giving a character the ability to defend and area, stopping opponents from just moving past them unimpeded.

There's no latter D&D AoOs,,no, but held actions and multiple attack option cover it, in concept.

On 3/14/2023 at 11:14 AM, Doc Democracy said:

What about a talent based on Barrier, when the warrior uses a defensive stance

Sounds fine.  Weave a web of steel and hold back three men at once!

Until one finally breaks through your defense. ( I'm assuming Barrier is like earlier versions' Force Wall.)

 

Or you could do a continuous-controllable AE around yourself, everyone passing by you gets hurt.

 

Extraordinary Intimidate could do the trick... Or power based on that.  Oratory to impugn their honor if they don't face you honorably could work similarly.

 

 

[Scott Ruggels]

You front three hexes can be covered with the sweep maneuver. The user should have levels with it to cover the negatives, though. 

[GDShore]

There are problems with any area defense, too wide a defensive arc and you are bypassed, flanked and overwhelmed. The smaller the defense force the smaller the face required, so for a single warrior to hold the enemy at bay a facing of no more than 5-6 meters preferably narrower. when I was still active in the SCA we would play at Horatio at the bridge, the narrow was easy at 2-3 meter a defender could hold upwards of a half hour, as the face widens time drops, at 4-5 meters wide 10-15 minutes was the average, at 5-6 meter 5 maybe six minutes. The issue is that as the face widens the attacker can vary his line of assault, it does not matter much what weapon the defender uses. If the attackers were three or so, the defender had an easier time of it, the attackers kept getting in each others way, unless the attackers were a sword and board and two polearms the defender goes down so fast blink and you miss it.  As for the sweep sword and board doesn't do it the attacker closest to the shield will clobber you on the head, as for the polearm defender his problem is that against a competent team, that team will have their best om the side where the defender will most likely start his sweep. Advancing shield forward he accepts the sweep on his shield then traps it there with his weapon, (sword or axe) while his two companions make sushi. I have seen a successful single defender versus 2 pole and a sword, he went Viking style, round shield, center boss, center hand grip and a long hafted axe, as the trine advanced onto the bridge the defender quick advanced towards them sidestepping shield wards axe held under the shield he tabled the shield to his forearm and used it to deflect and block the polearm, sweeping the axe out from the shield into the swords mans shield lifting him off his feet and driving him backwards into the second polearm where they collapsed in a tangle, finishing off the first polearm at his leisure , then as the two managed to reach their feet dispatched them. The chaps name in society is Grendal Redtroll and hi is big. 6'5" -6''6" and plus 300 lbs. Sweep can be done, but only if you are big enough to pull it off, when I was gaming nobody in my group ever used it, no one thought it the least bit effective.

[Christopher R Taylor]

There is a concept from D&D 3.0 that I thought was really good and reasonable: attacks of opportunity.  The idea was that in old D&D people could move around all over the board with impunity, you could run right past an opponent and they could do nothing.  AOO let a character do an ordinary attack against a foe if they moved past their "zone of control" which is basically their square and any adjacent square on the mat.

 

This concept makes sense; you can at least take a swat at someone who is buzzing past you, even if you are fighting or aren't currently active in the stack.  So yeah, I adapted it for my house rules; you can abort to attack with no combat maneuvers and using the OCV you had at the end of your last phase.

[Doc Democracy]

On 3/16/2023 at 7:09 AM, Opal said:

Sounds fine.  Weave a web of steel and hold back three men at once!

Until one finally breaks through your defense. ( I'm assuming Barrier is like earlier versions' Force Wall.)

 

Was not sure whether to build it as a 0 DEF barrier with BODY, or a Barrier with no BODY.

 

I am inclined to go with 0 DEF as it all about being overwhelmed rather than a single massive attack succeeding.  Can see arguments for both though.

[LoneWolf]

 Actually there are some rules for this.  The optional guarding areas and ignoring opponents and interposing are in book 2 in 6th edition.   Something similar was in the ultimate martial artist for 5th edition, and I think the 4th edition Ninja Hero book also had them.

 

Guarding does not actually prevent someone from going past you, but if they do they are at ½ DCV.   Interposing is basically taking a penalty to DCV that becomes a bonus to OCV is the person attacking attacks what you are defending.  Both of them use a held action. 

 

While these do not prevent someone going past you they do put anyone who tries at a big disadvantage.  The penalties for doing this should be obvious so anyone trying to get past someone who is guarding an area is going to know they are at ½ DCV.  If you are guarding an area and the opponent moves up to attack you instead of ignoring you they are at full DCV.  Knowing that ignoring you is likely to get them hurt or killed will often be as effective as actually preventing them from moving.  A group of experienced combatants used to working together can probably get around you, but that is often the case in real life. 

[Doc Democracy]

On 3/17/2023 at 7:24 PM, LoneWolf said:

 A group of experienced combatants used to working together can probably get around you, but that is often the case in real life. 

 

I get all the stuff, I have seen it all. 🙂  I wanted Horatio on the bridge, I wanted to hold off a force of men, sacrificing myself heroically to give my comrades time to get away.  If a force of men can rush past, a few of them getting hurt in the process, I have not done my job.

 

I am not looking to simulate real life, I am looking to HERO for action hero stuff.  So if your solution doesn't accomplish the stand-off, then it isn't the right solution in this case.

 

🙂

 

Doc

[assault]

What you should do is bring a couple of friends with you, like Horatio did. He only started soloing when the bridge was on the verge of collapse, when it presumably wasn't possible to go around him.

More broadly, though, should there be options for what amount to Zones of Control or Attacks of Opportunity? I suppose, maybe.

What I wouldn't like to see are Talents or Powers simulating these.

[Christopher R Taylor]

One thing that can be done is to enforce the environment.   Every time you defeat a foe, they fall down and make it harder to reach the Horatio.  As the bodies pile up, it becomes a barrier that restricts the use of some weapons (long weapons will be restricted) and maneuvers such as move-through or move-by are restricted if not impossible.

[Hugh Neilson]

The vision, I assume, extends beyond a narrow bridge. I would have no issue ruling that Horatio can't be passed through the hex he occupies while actively defending.

 

A "barrier" of sorts that extends that zone (anyone trying to pass gets rebuffed by a kick, a shield bash or the flat of his blade, doing no damage) seems a perfectly reasonable power.

 

By most accounts, there were three defenders initially - that seems likely enough to block a bridge into Rome in 500 BC. They weren't building 6-lane highways.

[LoneWolf]

One thing that might work is using a block maneuver instead of an attack.  Since you can continue to block as long as you keep succeeding you should be able to block multiple characters.  Combine this with the guarding rules and you can stop multiple opponents by continuing your block.  If you have a higher SPD, you can use a sweep maneuver after they have been stopped and then return to a guarding action.

 

Let’s say you are have a SPD 4 character facing multiple SPD 3 opponents.  In 12 you start a guarding action with block as your declared action.  You can block anyone approaching you.  In phase 3 you use a sweep maneuver to cut down those you have stopped.  In phase 6 you go back to guarding with the block as your held action.  They approach you in 8 and you use a block to stop them.  In 9 use another sweep to cut down your opponents.  In twelve the cycle starts again with the same results.  This assumes that the opponents are going to try and attack you because to ignore you would put them at half DCV.  To pull this off you will need a high enough OCV to hit and block and be able to deal enough damage to take out your opponents.  While the rules are not clear if a block would stop someone trying to get past you, I would allow it in a game I am running.

 

If you do need to build a power for this, consider an autofire attack.  Simply use the suppression fire option to be able to attack anyone who enters the guarded area.  
 

[Doc Democracy]

2 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

One thing that might work is using a block maneuver instead of an attack.  Since you can continue to block as long as you keep succeeding you should be able to block multiple characters.  Combine this with the guarding rules and you can stop multiple opponents by continuing your block.  If you have a higher SPD, you can use a sweep maneuver after they have been stopped and then return to a guarding action.

 

This was my first thought but then, when I ran it, the block only works if someone attacks, not if they just run past...then I just stand there looking silly, waiting for an attack that never comes.

 

Like you say, you could GM rule it.

 

I could also GM rule the PRE attack option, being so damn scary that they hold off on rushing me, and as long as I manage to keep doing enough damage to those coming in, they delay long enough for my friends to escape.

 

I just think that the powers are what make HERO unique, a pretty balanced way of coming up with cool stuff for players to do.  No need to handwave like in other systems to allow cool things to happen, you can allow players to buy those abilities.

[LoneWolf]

A naked 5 shot autofire on 4d6 HKA with the limitations OAF and suppression fire only costs 12 points.  Suppression fire is a half phase maneuver so can be combined with the optional guarding rules. This will allow you to make an attack on anyone moving through the area.  If they ignore you and try and move past you they are at ½ DCV.  The suppression fire means you can attack every segment, not just the phases you go in. It also means you can attack the character once for every hex they enter.  The only limit is you cannot hit more than 5 times (or the number of shots fired).  

[Doc Democracy]

Another good option.  As long as you were doing enough damage per hit you could deter folk from approaching.  Would work in conjunction with PRE attacks.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I think presence has a lot to do with it.  Stopping the first few who are brave enough to try is not going to do much for you, but the tenth guy is going to think twice about it after seeing all the bodies.  Its like the scene in 300 where the troops in back are shouting FORWARD and the troops in front are shouting BACK!!

[LoneWolf]

Yea the PRE attack is probably going to be used from the beginning.  A high enough PRE attack will probably result in the opponents taking up a defensive posture and not rushing past him.   I think that even the targets PRE for the PRE attack should be enough to prevent the opponents from doing anything that is going to reduce their DCV much less halving it.   

[MrAgdesh]

On 3/17/2023 at 1:49 AM, Christopher R Taylor said:

This concept makes sense; you can at least take a swat at someone who is buzzing past you, even if you are fighting or aren't currently active in the stack.  So yeah, I adapted it for my house rules; you can abort to attack with no combat maneuvers and using the OCV you had at the end of your last phase.

I remember a fairly new Justice Inc GM running his game where a group of goons with Tommy guns were stood 6” away from the PCs taunting them. They did not have the PCs “covered” - I’m not sure that manoeuvre existed then - and their guns were pointing down. When a PC announced “I flying tackle the leader” the GM went to phases. Whether he started on phase 12 or phase 3 didn’t matter, the PC was higher DEX, so the player moved his miniature figure on the battlemat into direct combat with the boss. The GM says “Wait? You can run 36’ and engage before even one of them can fire?!” - he did not like this peculiarity so ruled similarly to your Abort to Attack.