Tech Posted March 20, 2023 Report Share Posted March 20, 2023 A hero has a 50 Str TK power, and using TK grabs an opponent to hold him in place. Can the hero on his next attack PHA grab another opponent with TK and hold them, for a total of 2 opponents? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmjalund Posted March 20, 2023 Report Share Posted March 20, 2023 yes, but you have to spend END twice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asperion Posted March 20, 2023 Report Share Posted March 20, 2023 I have always treated TK as a psychic "hand " . As part of this, one can perform any activity that can be performed by their normal hands. Grabbing multiple people isn't normally possible unless they have certain mods like AoE that increase the area that they affect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Bushido Posted March 20, 2023 Report Share Posted March 20, 2023 Dude, this needs to go straight to your GM because there is a wide, wide gap of opinion this. Some will say "Yes" as the book doesn't say "no." Some will say you can hold up to your TK STR without regard for the number of things or targets. Some will say only one target at a time. Some will require a sweep maneuver, and still others will require Extra Limbs and "off hand" penalties. By the book? Yes. Other than that? Get with your GM. Christopher R Taylor and Grailknight 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoneWolf Posted March 20, 2023 Report Share Posted March 20, 2023 Since anyone can grab two people just by using your other hand, I don’t see why someone with TK could not do the same. I would say you are limited to two targets and do have to pay END twice. It may also be appropriate to reduce the STR by 5 like you would for a one-handed grab. If you want to grab more than two people, you should buy the TK with the advantage area of effect selective. Grailknight 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unclevlad Posted March 20, 2023 Report Share Posted March 20, 2023 6E1 295: Quote A character with Telekinesis can use it to Grab multiple people in successive Phases — one person in his first Phase, a second in his next Phase, a third in his next Phase, and so on. TK isn't just 2 hands, it's an infinite number of hands. I'd really love to have someone cite any comic book or any superhero novel where this is not the case...where it's limited to "just 2 hands." Note that it's not considered AoE says you can't scoop out a couple cubic meters of water even if you have enough TK STR to do so...but it doesn't mean you can't carry a half dozen trays separately. Also note: the rule I quoted above is the normal rule. If you're using Multiple Attack, there's no reason you can't Grab multiple people. It'd be hard with standard Grab because the penalties are cumulative, just as per any Multiple Attack. If my GM was suggesting TK was that grossly limited...let's start with, say, a 15 base STR. Extra Limbs: 20 (5 points) STR: +30 STR, 1/2 END, only with extra limbs (-1/2) (24 points) Stretching: 28 meters, Reduced END (1/2 END), Does not cross intervening space; extra limbs only (-1/4), no noncombat stretching (-1/4) (28 points) So for 57 points I've got a 45 STR strike out to 28 meters, with no range mod. For 3 END. I have most of the Indirect of TK. I obviously can grab 20 things at once. I can use all martial maneuvers. To get this with TK, it's 79 points...46 STR TK and I need Fine Manipulation for martial maneuvers. That's now 8 END, too. I do get much greater range, of course...but the range mod applies to TK, it doesn't apply to Stretching. 28 meters is just short of the max range for -4, so to get notably further you're looking at -6 or more. Fine, PSLs...but that's more points. Just because you can attack something at 100 meters, doesn't mean you can attack *effectively.* With Stretching, there's still a penalty for keeping someone grabbed. That doesn't hold for TK...but that's far more than offset if I can't keep multiple people grabbed. Note that the "does not cross intervening space" is the advantage to represent the limbs can't be attacked. If you want to argue that the "only with extra limbs" is basically not limiting...ok, that would add 13 points. You'd be at 70 for this build. You can put Limited Range onto the TK, because that's still over 300 meters of range, and a range mod that makes its utility very low. If TK can be "infinite hands" then the END cost alone still makes the Stretching far more practical....8 END per attack phase is huge. You're either gonna kick in Reduced END or buy a boatload of REC, or act at a really low SPD. It could be worth it; it's certainly the simpler build. But if TK is "2 hands"...? HECK no. I'd NEVER pay for TK. I'll just buy normal STR and Stretching. DentArthurDent 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted March 22, 2023 Report Share Posted March 22, 2023 I thought the rules say that you can grab additional opponents in additional phases. Grailknight 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unclevlad Posted March 22, 2023 Report Share Posted March 22, 2023 They do. There's no limit, other than the END cost. Duke Bushido and DentArthurDent 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted March 22, 2023 Report Share Posted March 22, 2023 Quote I'd really love to have someone cite any comic book or any superhero novel where this is not the case...where it's limited to "just 2 hands." The only example I can think of is if the telekinesis is LITERALLY just two hands, as in its like energy arms or "waldos" that someone can grab things with, rather than using mind over matter or whatever. Which is clearly a limitation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unclevlad Posted March 22, 2023 Report Share Posted March 22, 2023 2 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said: The only example I can think of is if the telekinesis is LITERALLY just two hands, as in its like energy arms or "waldos" that someone can grab things with, rather than using mind over matter or whatever. Which is clearly a limitation So is that TK or Stretching? I'll grant that if you limit to a set number...doesn't have to be 2...that would be a limitation on the TK, but TK has numerous other aspects. Doc Ock doesn't have TK, he has Extra Limbs and Stretching. A really nice augmentation for a martial artist type is Stretching, 12m; Does Not Cross Intervening Space (+1/4), No Non-combat Stretching, Limited Body Parts (arms and legs, -1/4) 10 points, 1 END to broaden your target selection nicely. A fun concept would be to boost Leap substantially, then pick up a couple of the FMove martial maneuvers using Strike. Showy as heck. But, just using it more plainly, it'd be sweet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Bushido Posted March 24, 2023 Report Share Posted March 24, 2023 Remember when I said check,with your GM because while the book says one thing, this is one of those subjects that GM's just don't agree on? For example, I tend to allow TK to grab things and more things, over and over- it's in the book, etc, and if you have sufficient TK STR to lift ten people, I will let you. I have a few house rules, but they are minor: If you are grabbing multiple things or people who are closely grouped, you can (assuming sufficient STR) grab everything / everyone in a single hex all at once. If the targets are in adjacent hexes (and are not a single object) I asses a small penalty related to concentration / tracking multiple targets. There is an additional penalty if the target is one hex face angle away from whatever you might already be holding- again, it's about focus. TK skill levels easily offset them. If you are holding something with TK and wish to take an additional target that is two or more hex faces away (direction-wise) from the direction of something you are already holding, make an EGO roll to keep focus on all targets. That's about it: again, a "skilled mentalist" will easily offset these with- well, with his skills. I wont bore you with the rationale to allow multiple targets, as the majority of them only apply because i play an edition with Figured Characteristics. A large chunk of the justification is "because the rules seem to say that this you can do this." The rest is because Telekinesis is _not_ hands. (Unless your SFX says it is, because Hands would be a special effect, and reading TK as Hands would be to mandate a special effect. Lookin' at you, Bigby.....) It is Telekinesis. The ability to move (or hold still-- unmove?) things with you mind. See? Different GM, different take. Consult your GM before spending a lot of time on this build. The penalties and rolls exist to differentiate the skilled TK users from the rest. I tend to find the "it is not hands; it is telekinesis" thing also does away with a lot of the wierd 5e and up adders: of course you can pick up a cubic meter of water. Of course you can finely manipulate (watch out for PER penalties, though, if you are soldering by remote). If you do not want those things, take a limitation. of course, the down side is that since it isnt hands, you cant crush or punch with it. If you want those things, build them as linked (or triggered or whatever) attacks the depend on a telekinetic hold. (Same for growth and stretching momentum). Why? Because "do damage at range" is already well-covered with two powers I can think of already. Case in point as far as the different GM /diggerent rules thing goes: On 3/22/2023 at 5:26 PM, unclevlad said: A really nice augmentation for a martial artist type is Stretching, 12m; Does Not Cross Intervening Space (+1/4) That advantage does not come to my table. I am not letting someone put Ranged (+1/2) and Indirect (+1/4 to +3/4)on their STR for a combined total of +1/4, no way; no how. It has been a few years, and I still cant fathom how that slipped through. Movement without crossing blah-blah-blah? Buy Teleport. Call it whatever you want, but buy Teleport. _However_, the idea he is suggesting will devil your PCs for some time. I have commented before that I don't generally use published villains, but for some reason, I took a shine to the 4e version of Cheshire Cat, and having just discovered Indirect in the same book, I put Ranged and Indirect on his STR, allowing him to throw a punch into the air in front of him, his forearm disappearing and reappearing five hexes to his left, cold-cocking the security guard sneaking up obliquely. Or do a standing roundhouse and sweep the Batman clone observing him from the parking garage two floors above. Or grab someone from across the room and poof away with them. In play, it is a lot more dazzling than the description, and even though some,of them have done it a dozen or more times, I _still_ have players who dread hearing that he is on the lose again. the utility of the build is truly impressive, especially as a sieze-the-Mcguffin kind of guy, but if you want me to give you that kind of utility for.a mere +1/4, you better come at me with a lottery-sized check first. I also want to point out that his Dr Octoous example was dead on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unclevlad Posted March 24, 2023 Report Share Posted March 24, 2023 Does Not Cross the Intervening Space means you don't have the body part that's stretching exposed along the entire path. It does not change the level of Indirect; Stretching already has Source fixed; any path, up to the limit of the Stretching. It isn't necessarily Teleport. I do it with purely energy limbs, because while, ok, there's an energy limb hanging out, smashing it does no real harm to the stretching character. I will grant, I have built a "I can 'throw' myself" concept...Teleport, Clairsentience, Stretching. Pretty sure the TP and the Clairsent were relatively limited, but it's still an entertaining combo. Or, for another example...Medusa, of the Inhumans. Her hair is what's stretching. OK, fine, in principle you can cut it...I don't offhand remember anyone doing this successfully, but it's not like I read many comics where she appeared...and this would have the effect of terminating a Grab she might be maintaining...but it doesn't hurt her in the slightest, or IIRC, limit her from sending her hair right back out. The problem really isn't the advantage, it's Stretching. That's getting you the Ranged, Indirect, AND No Range Mods. They're sharply curtailed, to be sure, but they're still there...and the scaling is completely separate. It's somewhere around a +3/4 advantage onto your STR, I'd say, but it's not on your STR. The scaling aspects are therefore massively different. In many ways, having looked at this *a lot*...I actually think Stretching might rate a Caution sign, *because* the cost scaling is so advantageous. (But I'd also probably buy that it's not Stretching per se, as tying together the combo...Extra Limbs, STR only with Extra Limbs, Stretching only with extra limbs.) Duke Bushido 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Bushido Posted March 24, 2023 Report Share Posted March 24, 2023 Please: unddrstand that I am not advocating for anyone else to not use it- unoess they haooen to be at my table, of course. But for my games, if you arent stretched through the physical space from you to your target- I matter hiw circuitous a route you may use, you didn't stretch there. I dont know what you did: partial teleport, telekinesis, remote drone, whatever, but for my games "soesnt criss intervenibg space" means you need to buy a power that does not cross the intervening space, period. Just like "well, I biught teleport, ut I call it running without crossing the intervening space." That'a fine, because you started with a power that does not require you to cross the intervening space. Sorry- it is late here, if I go on much more, I am going to get loopy and disjointed, so let me just close with this: Use what works for you. I have a hieraecht for Power builds: I start at 2e and only when nothing there does what I want do I go forward, one "e" at a time. Same with modifiers. Decades of doinf that have demonstrated (to me) that one, possibly two other little booklets like Champions II could replace everyrhing printed since, rules-wise, since,most of the newer modifiers seem to boil down to "I want this, but cheaper" and the bulk of the newer powers (bit all) seem to be similar to that of "I can't quite seoarate this special effect from a mechanic and therefore it should be a power." A column in the changes to range modifiers, a paragraph on the changes to END costs, and boom: by Champions IV, we'd be all nice and current. That "no intervening spaces" thing smacks of it: I want range and indirect, but they cost too much. Hiw can I get both for less than the price of either? Bur again: that us just _me_. It rubs _me_ wrong. I am not going to advicate that it be stricken from the record, because I don't even use that particular record. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tech Posted March 24, 2023 Author Report Share Posted March 24, 2023 Since this has veered away from the question which I believe has been adequately answered (Thank you), I suggest you start a new thread about Stretching, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted April 4, 2023 Report Share Posted April 4, 2023 Page 295, Book 1 A character with Telekinesis can use it to Grab multiple people in successive Phases — one person in his first Phase, a second in his next Phase, a third in his next Phase, and so on. He’s not restricted to only using the Telekinesis on one person at a time, or to the number of persons he could Grab using his own limbs. Of course, he has to pay END for each separate use of Telekinesis. That answers that one then. Given that you can definitely grab multiple opponents I'd probably allow a multi-attack. Given that is one use of TK I would only charge you END for one use but I would allow the grabbed targets to combine STR to break free. Seems balanced. Like one big hand rather than lots of little ones. You may decide not though. Matter for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unclevlad Posted April 5, 2023 Report Share Posted April 5, 2023 12 hours ago, Sean Waters said: Given that you can definitely grab multiple opponents I'd probably allow a multi-attack. Given that is one use of TK I would only charge you END for one use but I would allow the grabbed targets to combine STR to break free. Seems balanced. Like one big hand rather than lots of little ones. You may decide not though. Matter for you. NOOO....neither one makes any sense. Each Grab is a separate action. Multiple Attack allows multiple attack actions to take place, but each is separate. If I have Extra Limbs and Stretching, and I want to Multiple Attack to grab 2 targets, are you saying I'd only have to pay for STR once? If I want to punch one guy and grab one guy, it's 2 separate END costs. 2 Grabs, 2 separate actions, 2 END expenditures. Nor do you have to 'spread' your TK to hold onto multiple targets. The cleanest way to think of TK, as it's written up, is infinite extra limbs, with Stretching out to LOS, and its own independent STR measure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted April 6, 2023 Report Share Posted April 6, 2023 (edited) I don't see the problem. If there's two house bricks on a table, can you pick them both up as a single telekinetic grab? You could as a non telekinetic grab. You could grab two opponents with a normal grab, so why not with a TK grab? There's penalties. If probably require them to be adjacent to each other, or say least close. Then there's the two opponents, one grab. Say both opponents are 30 STR and you've got a 40 STR TK, if they're both in a single grab, why not allow them to combine STR and effectively be STR 35? I mean, you can do what you want, but I don't see how these suggestions are game breaking and they allow for more flexibility in gameplay which has to be a good thing. Edited April 6, 2023 by Sean Waters Ninja-Bear 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted April 8, 2023 Report Share Posted April 8, 2023 Wait, what maneuver replaced Sweep in 6th ed? I’d allow that with TK grab with all the penalties of course. Christopher R Taylor 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted April 9, 2023 Report Share Posted April 9, 2023 I can see the argument to be also that if you wanted to grab several opponents at once, then each additional opponent the TK should lose 5 STR per additional one. I base this Spreading an Energy Blast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.